The Auswine Forum

First of all, let me start my saying hello. I have been loving reading this forum for the past few weeks and now I've decided it's time to contribute.

I was wondering if you think it is on the whole possible, or simply plausable, that a case of wine could have one bad bottle?

I recently bought a case of wine from the Grays Online heritage auction, which I thought was quite a steal at the time. The wine in question is the Killikanoon Secret Places 2002 Barossa Shiraz. Let me just say that I am no wine expert, in fact I fell in love with the stuff only around 4 months ago so I certainly don't have a long drinking history. However, even in my limited experience I do think that the first bottle I opened out of this case had something wrong with it. I could taste the alcohol so much, there was almost a menthol flavour - and it numbed my tounge! This was after a 40 minute decant. Another 40 minutes saw some of the fruitiness dissapear and the taste was not quite as pungent, even further on it started to become very bland with nothing but this alcohol taste. 24 hours didn't do much for this odd taste either. Now surely this is not how this wine is supposed to taste? I have sent am email to Killikanoon asking for their opinion on this matter and await a reply.

So it leaves me in a bit of a pickle. I contacted Grays who were fantastic at first, saying that they would happily return the wine and arranged for a courier to pick it up. One week later, and numerous phone calls and angry messages, the wine had still not been collected and it wasn't until I sent a rather rude email that someone actually phoned to say that the Heritage wines are not able to be returned. I understand this is part of the terms and conditions, why they couldn't tell me the previous week I do not know.

Should I be game enough to open another bottle and suffer the entire experience again (or possibly be in bliss?)? And has anyone actually tried this wine and can tell me what it is supposed to be like?

Your help and advice is much appreciated

Absolutely open a second bottle, only way to be sure if the first bottle is representative.

Hard to say from your description whether or not the wine is faulty. Aussie reds with perceptible levels of alcohol, especially those produced specifically for Heritage, are not hard to find.

I would think storage conditions could be an issue with much of the Heritage stock in which case you have few options. The producer cannot be liable for storage conditions once it has left their premises.

Above all of that, when buying unknown labels from failed investment schemes, through online auction houses, the words caveat emptor spring to mind.

Welcome to the forum.

LL

My last auction case was 12 bottles of Rosemount Roxborough chardonay which was 9 yo. Every bottle was down the sink
Moral....buyer beware.
Buy from trusted supplier
Buy young and cellar correctly
Beware older poorly stored wines
Know your wines...in hindsight I wouldn't have bought the Roxborough as it was past peak.

Graham

Hi Victoria,

Welcome to the forum and commiserations on the auction buy, even the best of us make mistakes sometimes.

Although it is quite possible that just one or two bottles from a case may be faulty (so try another one or two), I suspect you may be disappointed with the rest too, especially if you are sensitive to the alcohol level.

My own biggest mistake was a case of Heaven's Gate Barossa Shiraz 2001 (supposedly made by Two Hands I think), it was volatile and undrinkable, I tried every bottle as I tipped it down the drain.

There are good buys to be had at Grays, but not many in the ex-HFW investment wines. I've bought quite a lot of wine there, much of it for friends, see here for my experiences with Grays: http://redbigot.info/GraysOnline.htm

Auctions can be a bit of a gamble concerning provendence, having said this I've only had good fortune.

I usually stick to the more bullet proof wines , a group of us usually throw $50 each in every month and have a dinner party, works really well.

We seem to have had a bite at a couple of similar wines Brian.

The 01 Willow Bridge Shiraz is reasonable, but not sure about JH's cellaring reccomendation, its got a fair whack of alcohol.

Also brought some of the Chateau La Dame de Landiras which is chewy and interesting, but doesn't even come close to being value at their suggested RRP's.

Tried one of the 2000 La Testa Blends which arrived a week or two back, and I thought it was a great drink. The 03 Heartland Cab was good (didn't last long), as is the 02 Cheviot Bridge Yea Valley Cab.

The only disaster has been a case of 01 Ballast Stone Shiraz which I think had some bacterial issues.

Very handy table by the way.

Cheers,

LL

Hi Victoria and welcome.

First of all, I have to disagree with roughred on the issue of storage of Heritage wines. Heritage was headquartered in the Millers Alexandria wine storage facilty and all their wines were delivered directly to temperature and humidity controlled storage. Probably the best in the country. I used to have a private bin there and would regularly see pallets of Heritage wine in there.

I'm not entirely sure what happened after this but I do know it was still in the millers site for some time after the collapse as the administrators went through and tried to figure out what on earth was going on. One would hope Grays have a similar facility for storage so I think you could be reasonably confident it's never been heat affected.

Being a high alcohol wine that is not to your tastes is another thing altogether. Many of the wines were made to appeal to Robert Parker's tastes in the hope of a big score and onsales to the US market. The bottle should have the alcohol level written on the label. If it is over 14.5%, this could well be your problem. Killikanoon are based in the Clare Valley and menthol can often be a trait in this region. Wendouree wines are known for it. Some people like it, others don't. It may also be a bit early to be drinking a bigger 02 wine although you did decant it and then even try it after 24 hours. It may just not be to your tastes and could probably do with a bit more time (or maybe it should have been drunk younger too).

Let us know what the alcohol is and follow up with Killikanoon too. They may be able to shed some light. Try another bottle and if you don't like it, send it off to auction. It may be to someone elses tastes and you might get most of your money back.

bacchaebabe wrote:
First of all, I have to disagree with roughred on the issue of storage of Heritage wines. Heritage was headquartered in the Millers Alexandria wine storage facilty and all their wines were delivered directly to temperature and humidity controlled storage. Probably the best in the country. I used to have a private bin there and would regularly see pallets of Heritage wine in there.

Hi Kris,

No issues with Heritage and their storage whilst solvent...more worried about what may have happened in the interim. I read at one stage Millers where preparing to dump the lot for non payment...very happy if I am wrong as I have small amounts of the wines in question!

Cheers,

LL

Thanks everyone for your warm welcomes and advice.

Buyer beware indeed, I think I will stay away from Grays in the future unless I am sure of what I am getting. I might crack open another bottle tonight and see how we go. It makes me feel better (and not such a failure) to know that this kind of thing happens to other people too.

I did get a nice case of Glaetzer Goldbeater Shiraz from Grays a while ago, at least that was enjoyable.

Oh and Red Bigot, if it wasn't for your blog I would have been bidding way over what I should for some very crappy wine. I have indeed read that page, and I thank you

I will check the alcohol and see how we go. I must say that it really was very pungent so I would find it hard to believe that it is just not to my taste. I will see what the other bottles are like.

Where could one sell such a wine at auction?

I'm sure Miller's threatened such action but don't think it ever happened. I did hear the staff there just took off with a lot of wine though so I'm not sure who should have been paying whom. I think the storage is the only thing we can be confident with with these wines.

You could sell at any number of places. Langton's springs to mind. Only if it's sound though and not if it's faulty (corked, brett, etc). I wouldn't suggest you do that under those circumstance but some people love high alcohol wines and others don't so that's fine.

I've got to be careful what I say but if they refuse to honor the usual guarantee on the wines, ask Grays if they can resell it at 0% commission and you will continue doing business with them.

Heritage stock has been stored at a few locations over the debarcle...Millers certainly was good, other locations less so.

Ohh....and welcome Victoria

DaveB wrote:I've got to be careful what I say but if they refuse to honor the usual guarantee on the wines, ask Grays if they can resell it at 0% commission and you will continue doing business with them.

Heritage stock has been stored at a few locations over the debarcle...Millers certainly was good, other locations less so.

Ohh....and welcome Victoria

The absence of the 30-day guarantee of standard auctions is clearly documented in the auction overview. "All lots are sold on an "as is" basis."

Their normal returns policy and client communication are both pretty hopeless, the latter despite (or perhaps because of) the existence of a computerised CRM system.

bacchaebabe wrote:You could sell at any number of places. Langton's springs to mind. Only if it's sound though and not if it's faulty (corked, brett, etc).

Yes, I don't send off the bottles I open and find are corked, it's too hard to get the cork back in and make the capsule look like it hasn't been opened.

Hi Brian,

It is clearly documented but it is worth a shot I guess

victoria wrote:I will check the alcohol and see how we go. I must say that it really was very pungent so I would find it hard to believe that it is just not to my taste. I will see what the other bottles are like.

Try to pick out what the aroma / taste reminds you of, pungent could be something like acetic acid/vinegar (excessive Volatile Acidity), other volatiles like Ethyl Acetates (glue, nail polish remover) and smelly sulphur-based compounds are fairly obvious.

DaveB wrote:Hi Brian,

It is clearly documented but it is worth a shot I guess

Yeah, maybe, if you have the patience for an endless exchange of emails. It might work at a reputable specialist wine auction house though.

I've always been curious out their occasional "Returned Wine" sales as they only way they say they will accept a wine back is if it is faulty...

Red Bigot wrote:I've always been curious out their occasional "Returned Wine" sales as they only way they say they will accept a wine back is if it is faulty...

I did actually bring this up in the long, drawn out conversation I had with Grays. I questioned why they could not take back my wine when I have an email stating "I confirm our agreement to have your item from invoice xxxxx to be returned and inspected according to our Terms and Conditions of our Returns Policy". Unfortunately that policy does mean that they can reject it when it arrives and I will be subject to shipping costs. I really do not want to risk more costs. I bought from Grays in the first place because I cannot afford to buy the wine that I would like to be able to drink. Indeed, I have learnt my lesson! Perhaps time to join a club...

Anyway, they refused to comment on returned wine sales. They just repeated over and over that human errors happen, this is a human error blah blah blah. I got sick of hearing it

victoria wrote:

Red Bigot wrote:I've always been curious out their occasional "Returned Wine" sales as they only way they say they will accept a wine back is if it is faulty...

I did actually bring this up in the long, drawn out conversation I had with Grays. I questioned why they could not take back my wine when I have an email stating "I confirm our agreement to have your item from invoice xxxxx to be returned and inspected according to our Terms and Conditions of our Returns Policy". Unfortunately that policy does mean that they can reject it when it arrives and I will be subject to shipping costs. I really do not want to risk more costs. I bought from Grays in the first place because I cannot afford to buy the wine that I would like to be able to drink. Indeed, I have learnt my lesson! Perhaps time to join a club...

Anyway, they refused to comment on returned wine sales. They just repeated over and over that human errors happen, this is a human error blah blah blah. I got sick of hearing it

A wine club is a great way to get to try wine. Afterall, wine should be experienced with good food and conversation. Even getting together a group of your friends that may not be obsessed but enjoy wine is a good way to explore new regions and varieties as you get to try a few similar wines at the same time and sometimes you can even try them masked allowing you to really work out what you like minus the hype.

Oh and offlines are also good fun

cheers

Carl

I have been working my way through a case of '02 Tarrawarra Pinot over the last year or so.

Last weekend I pulled out the 7th bottle from the case. Opened it and just from a whiff of the cork I knew something was amiss. Poured a little and the colour was wrong and a smell confirmed that the wine was horribly oxidised. The preceeding 6 bottles had all been fantastic. Back down to the cellar I go and take out the 8th bottle that was right next to it. It opened up clean as a whistle and drank superbly.

So there is certainly a possibility that you can get 1 bad bottle in a case.

Incidentally I contacted Tarrawarra who were great and offered to replace the bottle with either the '02 or current vintage.

I found a real bargain with the 2002 Simon Adams Farmers Market Wrattonbully Cab Merlot.

Opened a bottle last night and had it with a simple fettuccine with a rich meat ragout and it was very pleasant.

It was a beautiful ruby red colour and very berry driven bouquet. Cherry, blackcurrants and hints of chocolate on the palate.

Highly recommend this one (especially at $4 / bottle)

Just opened a 2002 secret places. IMHO, not good.

It’s an unfortunate night as I immediately opened a 2002 dead arm. In reality, the poor secret places gave me all the excuse I needed……

I believe the dead arm to be corked, though not rank. It’s been in the decanter now for an hour and a half, has a musty nose and while the fruit is discernable I expected way more. Its finish however is long, and fruit sweet by comparison to the secret places.

Secret places 2002.
Alcohol clearly out of balance, its slightly sweet and then literally burns the nose. It finishes a little hot and the colour is good. I’d steer clear of these and simply don’t think it’s a good wine.

9redpens wrote:Just opened a 2002 secret places. IMHO, not good.

It’s an unfortunate night as I immediately opened a 2002 dead arm. In reality, the poor secret places gave me all the excuse I needed……

I believe the dead arm to be corked, though not rank. It’s been in the decanter now for an hour and a half, has a musty nose and while the fruit is discernable I expected way more. Its finish however is long, and fruit sweet by comparison to the secret places..

Hopefully at least you can return the Dead Arm.