The Auswine Forum

Long shot here, but has anyone tried the 2005 vintage of Stonyridge Larose??

Another wine where it pays to shop around.

Retail I have seen it as "low" as $93, and as high as $200. Who is trying to kid who!!??

Who is kidding who?

Well Stonyridge comment on the second page of a PDF attached to their web site that the Larose is "one of the best investments anyone can make!" So it should be cheap at any price!

I wonder if they would stand behind that statement if someone took them to court because they lost money on Larose after being convinced of its great investment potential from literature produced by the winery?

Mike

we all know wine is only an investment to those who get the words 'investment' and 'speculation' mixed up.

Stonyridge seems a winery who are experts at creaming the market to the maximum. As a business they seem brilliant at capitalising upon their reputation, brilliant at coat tailing larose with other wines, brilliant at maximising return from their stunning location, brilliant at keeping cash flow through en prem. Good on them I say. Steve White is a business man not a charity patron

At least SRL is a top wine most vintages, not like some of the other waiheke pretenders

Just if I buy Larose I dont buy cellar door!!!

If their Airfield blend is anything to go by Larose would not be worth the money. Having said that I have never tried it. The Airfield is nice enough but grossly over priced.

Ive tried Larose vintages 93,94,96,97,99,00,01 so enough to form a general opinion. But I havent tried any of the most recent vintages - there really isnt any outlet to try them now without purchasing a bottle (hence my trouble getting a note!!). And if you buy a bottle it is most prudent to cellar it a while before you knock the top off it.

I hear its available at the waiheke wine festival to taste (at what price i shudder to think) but it is cheaper to just buy the bottle by the time you pay for ferry and bus and tickets bla bla. I have a few top vintages in the cellar, but only single bottles here and there.

It may be fashion to knock Larose but from my experience Larose is the real deal, and from top vintages, of which 05 is one, it is outstanding. The 94, 96 and 99 are exceptional.

Larose pricing has been stable for many years. It appears with many new 'upstart' wineries charging an arm and a leg for unproven wines, and general creep of other established labels that Larose has just begun to 'correct' or 'realign' itself. The 05 is now usually around the $140-200 mark retail, where just a few months ago the 04 was $120-150.

Anyway I grabbed one at $93, id say the last bottle I ever buy as im not paying $100+

I think it may be other reasons apart from Larose quality per se that leave a bad taste in peoples mouth - the waiheke money grabbing, the attitudes, and general high pricing of average wines on the island. Airfield is a joke at the price they ask for it, so is most of their coat tail riding fallen angel etc wines that SR make.

Hi Craig, I heard that the 2005 is a classic Larose but have not seen an impartial TN either. Where did you get yr btle ?

Cheers

Craig(NZ) wrote:The 05 is now usually around the $140-200 mark retail, where just a few months ago the 04 was $120-150.

Anyway I grabbed one at $93, id say the last bottle I ever buy as im not paying $100+

It's A$85 en primeur. How does that compare in NZD?

Craig(NZ) wrote:Long shot here, but has anyone tried the 2005 vintage of Stonyridge Larose??

Another wine where it pays to shop around.

Retail I have seen it as "low" as $93, and as high as $200. Who is trying to kid who!!??

I thought I might have, but it was the 2004 at the Waiheke Festival, so no.
BTW the 'en Primeur' price of the 2006 is $85 plus $15 freight to Auckland and $20 to other parts of the North Island (like where I live). So if you see it at $93 - grab it.

i grabbed one. used some left field excuse to justify yet another very expensive wine

Hi guys,

I haven't tried the 2005 Larose, but with all the talk about prices I thought the most recent installment of the column I write for the Independent Financial Review, published yesterday, might be a pertinent addition to the discussion.

Three recent release NZ reviews in here too.

Cheers,

Nick


Going under the hammer

A national record falls with nary a person in the room

Goodness gracious, I thought, the secondary wine market is healthy. With almost 200 people sitting cheek-by-jowl in Webb’s Manukau Rd auction rooms well before the 6.15pm deadline, any confidence I had that I might secure the odd bargain began ebbing away.
Then, using powers of deduction that have made me famous amongst my peers – many suggesting I’d have made a fine forensic investigator – I began to suspect something was amiss. For example, the image on the overhead projector in front of us all was not four bottles of Goldwater Estate Cabernet Merlot from the stupendously good 1998 vintage – catalogue price guide $50-65 plus the auctioneer’s 15% premium plus GST on the 15% – it was John Reynolds’ To Dream of Studying Geography, oil paint marker on acrylic on canvas, estimated price $5000-7000.
Idiot; the wine sale was about to start upstairs and I was sitting in the Modern & Contemporary Art auction. A quick sprint up those stairs and my confidence began to return. Yes, this was more like it, a near empty room, four bottles of Clarendon Hills 2002 Blewett Springs Old Vines Grenache open to try on a rather pleasant oak side table, circa 1910, and a tired looking auctioneer who looked like he might flog things off at any old price if it meant the evening didn’t wear on too long. Looks can be deceiving though; there were over 30 absentee bidders who’d lodged bids on many of the 408 lots, some of them probably downstairs buying the sort of gruesome post-modern tat that you’d need two bottles of rapidly consumed claret to begin appreciating.
So, here are some observations about the local secondary wine market and this, Webb’s April 2, 2007 sale of fine wines:
• If it weren’t for the iconic Waiheke red Stonyridge Larose there wouldn’t be many local wines making it onto the secondary market; of 114 lots, 47 of them were Larose.
• You’d be a mug to buy Larose on release; buy it at auction. It costs well north of $100 a bottle on release and Stonyridge’s own list of 13 vintages of library stock for sale ranges from $150 for the 1991 to $260 for the 1994. The hammer price for a bottle of the 1994 last Monday was $65, with the range across the 47 lots being $55 to $95 a bottle (before buyer’s premium).
• Webb’s head of wine, Simon Mickelson, says it was always assumed that lodge owners and restrateurs would be big buyers at auction, but over the years they’ve barely ever participated.
• So, the buyers are all private, and with eight of the dozen or so in the room at any one time on the night being Chinese, now we know where all that $1000-a-bottle Petrus, Lafleur and Margaux is going.
• But, contrary to what you might be thinking, these Asian buyers are not speculators. Simon says they’re passionate enthusiasts, often of limited knowledge about wine but with a thirst to learn. They drink the wines they buy, which pleases him very much, because they then return and stock up on more.
• The record for the most expensive bottle of wine ever sold in New Zealand was broken at this auction, the details of which my wife will be reading about for the first time today; just kidding darling! However, lot 345, a six-litre imperial of Chateau Latour 1990 went under the hammer to a private buyer for $14,050.
• In case you hadn’t noticed, and certainly I hadn’t noticed it to the degree that clearly exists, there are some astonishingly wealthy people in this country. Mickelson says it’s not unusual for a bidder to drop between $40,000 and $75,000 on wine at a single auction and be back with similar vigor the following month.
• Finally, as head of wine for Webb’s Mr Mickelson gets to drink many of these marquee bottles with both the vendors and buyers. No wonder the lucky bugger looked shagged.

REVIEWS

Feature wine: Villa Maria Gateway Vineyard Sauvignon Blanc 2006
New Zealand is a tiny place, story #17,604: At a recent birthday party I met a very pleasant woman who told me her parents grew sauvignon blanc for Villa Maria. “In Marlborough?” I asked. “Yes,” she replied. “Is it the Gateway Vineyard?” I asked. You know where this is going. It was; she immediately assumed I was a stalker, I assured her I wasn’t but I’d drunk the wine the night before and taken a lucky punt. Then, to make things spookier, I turned around and was introduced to Alastair Mailing, Villa Maria’s head winemaker. We’d never met, and he’d never met the daughter of the retired couple who provide him with such great sauvignon blanc. Anyway, to the wine, which just might be the best sauvignon blanc to pass my lips. This hugely pungent, intense Wairau Valley wine bursts with tropical fruit and gooseberry on the nose and delivers a core of gooseberry and ripe stone fruit that just won’t quit. As with anything good, balance is the key. In this case, great fruit intensity that would be cloying were it not matched by such structure. $27-30 www.villamaria.co.nz

For the table: Chard Farm ‘The Viper’ Pinot Noir 2005
The ground upon which the grapes for this wine grow was once covered in vipers bugloss flowers, otherwise known as blue borage. Not only do these flowers make the most delicious honey, I swear there’s a scent of them in this wine too. The colour is brilliant dark ruby with hints of purple; an intense note of ripe plum skin and cherries on the nose is followed by an equal measure of sweet vanillan oak, all of which is framed by scents of wild-thyme and borage. The balance is impeccable, with a slightly chewy and astringent entry setting up an intoxicating cascade of ripe fruits which leave a smoky perfumed sense in the mouth that’s a bit like Turkish delight and lasts for a good 20 seconds. This will cellar well in the short-to-medium term, but it’ll be hard to keep your hands off it. $45 from www.chardfarm.co.nz

For the cellar: Murdoch James Blue Rock Pinot Gris 2006
Great news: a serious new pinot gris from Martinborough. This is Murdoch James’s first release of Blue Rock Pinot Gris following two trial vintages. The colour is flinty silver with a glimmer of gold; its spicy, heady and intense pear-laden nose has a hint of ginger and peach that suggests a fat, off-dry palate to come. What you get is rather different, with a surprisingly taught, steely/mineral backbone framing a lush but lip-smackingly crisp palate of musky pear and ginger-laced fruit that finishes long with hints of sweetness. Drink now thru 2010; $29 from www.murdochjames.co.nz

Good column Nick - glad you are writing about wine again - but in a different place? Looking forward to trying that Vipers. I have a bottle. Perhaps on Saturday.

You’d be a mug to buy Larose on release; buy it at auction. It costs well north of $100 a bottle on release and Stonyridge’s own list of 13 vintages of library stock for sale ranges from $150 for the 1991 to $260 for the 1994. The hammer price for a bottle of the 1994 last Monday was $65, with the range across the 47 lots being $55 to $95 a bottle (before buyer’s premium).

Id pay $65+ premium for a 1994, stellar vintage - the best of them all.

I havent been to a wine auction for years. To be honest they bore me silly and often full of people with more money than sense. It is usually my luck that the one bottle I am interested in is the on that some sheik wants too!

Last time i went to fitzies i wanted 2x 93 Cyril. I waited for the lot not bidding once, then when the lot came up i just bid till i got them and left. paid nearly retail - well over estimate, as was against some rich telephone bidder.

Oh well, maybe I should try webbs one day!

BTW the 'en Primeur' price of the 2006 is $85 plus $15 freight to Auckland

Sue, are you on the mailing list??

Larose is "one of the best investments anyone can make

Mike, Doesnt add up with Nick's experiences does it!!???

Craig/Nick
It appears some of the UK auction houses are going into overheat at the moment - lots going in excess of retail.

The time to buy at auction is during recession and whilst there are still bargains to be had, the high profile auctions are not currently the place to find them IMO.

regards

Ian

Craig(NZ) wrote:

Larose is "one of the best investments anyone can make

Mike, Doesnt add up with Nick's experiences does it!!???

Interesting isn’t that “one of the best investments anyone can make” sells for $65NZD!

For those who don’t know what Stonyridge claims on their website about the investment potential of the Larose here is a quote.

To further reinforce our position Stonyridge Larose 94 and 96 both just sold at auction in Feb 2003 for NZ$312 per bottle which is a record for a retail sale of a 750 ml bottle of New Zealand wine. Those wines were probably first offered at approximately NZ$50 which makes this one of the best investments anyone can make!

Nb this was not a hyped up Charity Auction, but a normal wine auction at Fitzgeralds in Auckland ...and no, we didn't bid.

Seems like the market has dropped dramatically since 2003! I wonder if the folks who paid $300+ for their Larose will be flipping it so they can claim their profits?

Mike

Stonyridge Larose 94 and 96 both just sold at auction in Feb 2003 for NZ$312 per bottle which is a record for a retail sale of a 750 ml bottle of New Zealand wine. Those wines were probably first offered at approximately NZ$50 which makes this one of the best investments anyone can make!

This would be very much a rare exception. It is clear from the live auctions ive been to, and the web auctions I keep an eye on that $100 is about it for any vintage.

I think a top vintage of Stonyridge is worth $100, but amuses me when the range of prices asked for the latest 2005 vintage in retail shops is between $93 and $200. Obviously there are fools in the market somewhere!

I was in Auckland earlier this year and had the opportunity to visit Waiheke Island and some of its wineries. It is a pretty place but quite overtaken by tourism. Most of the wines at cellar door were overpriced.

We arrived at Stonyridge Vineyard late in the afternoon and found that the Larose was not on offer. They wanted NZ$200 for a single bottle! I was able to taste the 2004 ‘Airfield’ Cab-Merlot (NZ$60) and the 2005 ‘Pilgrim’ Syrah/Mouvedre/Grenache(NZ$120). The Airfield was very good and the Pilgrim v. good to excellent but both, in my opinion, were way overpriced.

Among the other wines I tasted I found that the 2005 Peninsula Estate “Zeno” Syrah to be quite good (NZ$45) as was the v. good to excellent 2005 Man O’ War ‘Ironclad’ (Merlot/Cab. Sav./Cab. Franc/Syrah) and v. good 2005 Man O'War ‘Dreadnought’ Syrah.

If I were to return to Auckland I probably wouldn’t go back to the Waiheke Island cellar doors. They all charge relatively high prices to taste the wines and the for the most part the bottle prices are far too high.

Cheers…………….Mahmoud.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:I was in Auckland earlier this year and had the opportunity to visit Waiheke Island and some of its wineries. It is a pretty place but quite overtaken by tourism. Most of the wines at cellar door were overpriced.

We arrived at Stonyridge Vineyard late in the afternoon and found that the Larose was not on offer. They wanted NZ$200 for a single bottle! I was able to taste the 2004 ‘Airfield’ Cab-Merlot (NZ$60) and the 2005 ‘Pilgrim’ Syrah/Mouvedre/Grenache(NZ$120). The Airfield was very good and the Pilgrim v. good to excellent but both, in my opinion, were way overpriced.

Among the other wines I tasted I found that the 2005 Peninsula Estate “Zeno” Syrah to be quite good (NZ$45) as was the v. good to excellent 2005 Man O’ War ‘Ironclad’ (Merlot/Cab. Sav./Cab. Franc/Syrah) and v. good 2005 Man O'War ‘Dreadnought’ Syrah.

If I were to return to Auckland I probably wouldn’t go back to the Waiheke Island cellar doors. They all charge relatively high prices to taste the wines and the for the most part the bottle prices are far too high.

Cheers…………….Mahmoud.

The problem is, from what I've heard, is that everyone who visits Stonyridge is invariably disappointed. Why not go to somewhere like Mudbrick - wine tasting just $5 per person - plus the setting is beautiful, the gardens immaculate, the people are very friendly and with their new chef they probably have the best restaurant on the island today. I say that after eating there yesterday. Although I haven't been to the brand new Cable Bay facilities (very close to Mudbrick) yet.

As for island bottle prices, from what I see it is just a couple that charge over $50 for their top wine - and probably only Stonyridge that has several wines over $50. Now compare that to say, somewhere like Central Otago, and there are a whole heap of wineries that charge over $50 for their top wine.

Now, if you want to see a value red from Waiheke, then it would have to be the Obsidian Weeping Sands 2005- $25, a blend of five red varieties and very smart.

Does Man O' War have a cellar door now?

Cheers,
Sue

I am a strong advocate of exceptional wines getting good prices. If this doesn't happen all we get is the "rush to the lowest denominator" seen in Australia, Chile and sundry other countries. Though I personally would not (could not), pay $200 for a bottle of wine, I see pricing in the range of $30 to $50 being good value for money - IF the quality of the wine justifies that price.

This level repays the attention to detail in both the vineyard and winery - and in spite of appearances, does not mean the grower and the winemaker are going to retire millionaires. However they will make a better than comfortable living - a reward for their care and attention.

The other side of the coin is this - on visiting Central Otago a couple of years ago I tried over 50 Pinot noirs. Of that number I found perhaps five or eight that justified the price asked. The others, though of much lesser quality, still asked and got prices somewhere north of $40. In the main, Marlborough Pinots are better value and often better wines, however I have found the Amisfield wines value for money - and not just swinging on the coat-tails.

I have also found the same on visiting Waiheke (rarer), and though Goldwater is now a much wider-based operation, many of their Waiheke wines are very good indeed, and some represented good value for the effort involved.

GG

SueNZ, I tasted the Man O'War wines in a bottle shop located on the main road in Waiheke Island just up from the ferry. The winemaker was there and I was impressed with his experience. He had worked in Spain at a winery that made a wine called 'Tres Picos' a fruity, grenache-based wine from Barsao that has received accolades in Canada and the US. As far as I know there is no cellar door, at least not yet. Yes, I should have visited Mudbrick (it was on the list) but it will have to wait till next time. Any chance of getting any of the Mudbrick or Obsidian wines here in Sydney?

Grey Ghost, I agree that wine makers should be rewarded for their efforts but at the same time I don't think that there has been a "downward spiral" for most of the top quality wines in Australia. As far as I can see the price declines are centred around the big brands and bulk wines represnted by cleanskins. If there has been a price drop in some of the better wines I think it is more due to the decline in export sales. I should also say that I only visited four wineries on Waiheke Island, not an exhaustive survey by any stretch.

Cheers...............Mahmoud.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:SueNZ, I tasted the Man O'War wines in a bottle shop located on the main road in Waiheke Island just up from the ferry. The winemaker was there and I was impressed with his experience. He had worked in Spain at a winery that made a wine called 'Tres Picos' a fruity, grenache-based wine from Barsao that has received accolades in Canada and the US. As far as I know there is no cellar door, at least not yet. Yes, I should have visited Mudbrick (it was on the list) but it will have to wait till next time. Any chance of getting any of the Mudbrick or Obsidian wines here in Sydney?

Man o'War -well that was lucky. I tasted at the Waiheke Festival and was impressed with the new packaging and particularly loved their Dreadnaught Syrah. There was another pretty good red too - Ironclad Merlot Cabernet 2005 - but pricey at $45. If you do go back to the island, the road to Stony Batter Historic Reserve goes through the fascinating property with vineyard blocks here, there and everywhere in all different orientations. You pass the winery on the road to Man O'War Bay - and they do host visitors by appointment.

As for the availability of the others in Sydney, Obsidian - www.obsidian.co.nz - lists an agent. Mudbrick - www.mudbrick.co.nz - does not.

Mahmood, I'll risk being castigated for drifting off-thread but this is a significant concern of mine. While some wineries charge excessively for sub-standard product and others, by both good making and good marketing, receive prices well above their apparent worth (DRC, Grange, HOG, etc), the market eventually sorts them out.

I can't speak for Australia on the artisan scale as so few of these wines are exported to NZ - and those that are, just like the Bluff oysters - are available only in the major centres and not in my distant neck-of-the woods. If what you say stands the pressures of supply, then it will sustain and indeed improve the Australian industry.

In the 70s (when even the RB was drinking white wines!), Ben Ean from Linde's was a market leader in the bottled sales in Sydney. However much wine-buffs of the time might have scorned this wine it led to an upward movement in quality.

When old Aunty Mabel (who liked to drink Ben Ean) had her birthday nephews and neices would buy her a bottle of one of the upper levels of sweeter wines - Chateau Leonay or Linde's own Watervale Spätlese (the 1967 was superb) lashing out perhaps as much as $10 or even $15 a bottle (yes, the cost of Jacobs Creek was $1.99 in those days). Curiosity led them to try these wines themselves and though the cask has remained the staple wine there continues to be a clear acknowledgement of these special wines.

Unfortunately the recent corporate plundering has almost reversed the upward movement in the readily available, but quality wines. If the examples available over here are any indication - wines where the lack of mid-palate and finish has to be bolstered with residual sugars (up to 8g/l); where the lack of structure in the fruit demands an almost ubiquitous addition of liquid tannins (never even contemplated in my training days). These wines then sell for $15 to $20 here - or on special about $12.

They are not bad wines - they are aimed at a specific market - and they do provide a quick-fix of alcohol cheaply - vin ordinaire. For this they are not to be sneered at, they have made wine available for everyday consumption to a much wider community.

The distortions created by accelerated depreciation and other tax benefits have created an over-supply problem in Australia - strangely skewed as the bulk level fruit is being "deserted" by major makers for a preference for so called cool-climate fruit - except that the prices paid are as for Riverland fruit. It will all sort itself out as the marketing and the production sides re-balance, but many of the small makers that provide the "interest" for us wine-lovers, may go to the wall - unless we as drinkers make the decision to pay that extra premium. It really does amount to that - "Do I buy two bottles of 128 or only one bottle of XYZ?".

No producer has a "right" to a cost-plus pricing - and I admit to scrabbling around in the bargain bin with the rest of humanity.

GG

Grey Ghost wrote:In the 70s (when even the RB was drinking white wines!), Ben Ean from Linde's was a market leader in the bottled sales in Sydney.

More thread drift....
I had moved on from the sweeties to occasional chardies, marsanne and semillon well before the 70's, this is what I started out on in the 60's and no doubt a few Ben Eans as well.


I'm fairly confident in the future for the (mostly small) wineries that make the sort of wine I like and buy, well-made reds priced fairly according to quality will always sell and sustain a viable business. I don't really care if a bunch of also-ran small wineries making mediocre and over-priced wines go to the wall, there are far too many of them now.

Yes the market will 'decide'. Some players in the market are more educated and estute than others.

Stonyridge Larose continues to be a New Zealand benchmark. I have tried it many times and the hit/ miss ratio for me is at least as good as Grange or other superstars, so to me it is the 'real deal'. Just buy it at the right place and avoid the tourist trap on the island.

Wow!! RB, you've kept one in your cellar all these years!

Now that photo brings back memories.

And I remember Purple Para too!

GG

What about the 02 Larose then? There are a few in a local New World here for $100 ish. Not tried it and I am curious.
GW

Gary

Havent tried the 02 Larose, but it is supposed to be a good vintage - certainly has the reputation of being better than the 01 and 03. You can still get the 02 as well for $93 in Auckland.

The most comprehensive write up of Larose ive seen is here. A Nz retailer website did have a good vertical write up but cant seem to find it on there anymore. Complete or near complete verticals of srl are rare. Most I have seen have included only lesser vintages!

Well here is my 2cents worth.

Spent 15 months in Auckalnd and tried Larouse twice by the glass at cellar door restaurant about $25 NZ per glass.

This was one of the best Kiwi reds I tried whilst over there. Especially a Cab Sav predominant blend if my memory serves me correctly?

Value for money not really but it depends on your defintiton of value.

If your lokking at Cab Sav's or Cab Sav blends then you can get far better bang for your buck from Coonawarra in a good year (or almost any year).

If you are looking for one of the best Cab Sav predominanat blends from NZ and money is no object indulge at liesure. NZ Cab Sav is extremely fickle probably due to weather and terrior perhaps with global warming things may change. Merlot predominant blends are a much better prospect from NZ at this point in time.

I have a veritcal of Lake's Folly Cab Sav spanning at least 10 years (I've been collecting and consuming for over 20 years). I buy more in a good year the a lesser year. But buy every year regardless of vintage.
The reason being that I 1st tasted wine in the hunter Valley due to close proximity to Sydney (only a 3.5 hour drive from the north of Sydney in those days). The Hunter Valley is not a Cab Sav region but Lakes Folly make the best example of Cab Sav year in year out of any producer I've tatsed in that region.

I have a strong bias for Cab Sav but enjoy all quality wine whatever the hue.

Enjoy Larouse for what it is if money is no object and you are looking for iconic NZ reds (other then Pinot Noir) then pay the $80 - $125 NZ asking price.

What p*sses me off is the price we pay in Oz for Kiwi pinot noir.

Please explain?

If you are looking for one of the best Cab Sav predominant blends from NZ and money is no object indulge at leisure

Sums it up nicely. I buy most of my wines heavily with qpr in mind. But imagine how boring your cellar would be if it didnt have the odd extravagence included! Every now and then you need to buy a wine for the experience or a purpose. eg.. why I bought 98 Vidals Soler Cabernet. Sure its not the best qpr, and not a trendy wine, but one day when I need to represent NZ with a 100% cabernet, it is there and it will do us proud. Like its not as if there is a top NZ cab worth buying every decade hehe