The Auswine Forum

I'm starting to get a little concerned (and a little annoyed) at the number of new reds under screwcap that open up with stinky reduced characters. In most cases it seems to blow off in half an hour or so, but sometimes not.
Last night at my Monday tasting group there were 3 screwcaps and three corks in the six bottles, all three screwcapped wines opened up stinky. They were:
Tollana TR16 Adelaide Hills/Eden Valley Shiraz 2005 (a faint shadow of the former glories of this label, even after the stink blew off, avoid)
De Bortoli Gulf Station Shiraz/Viognier 2005 (top gold in it's class at the NWS), the stink blew off, but this bottle failed to impress.
Wirra Wirra Scrubby Rise Shiraz-dominant blend 2005, a cheapy that showed up quite well.

At dinner after the tasting one person brought a Jip Jip Rocks Shiraz (2004? or 2005?) under screwcap and it also opened up with mild reduced characters.

Most of these wines aren't destined for cellaring, so further build-up of reductive characters may not be a problem and they do seem to blow off fairly quickly. On the other hand they are wines that people are likely to buy, open and want to drink immediately, not wait 30-60 minutes for the smell to go away, the wineries are doing their wine (and customers) a disservice if they can't get on top of these characters in their screwcapped offerings.

On the other hand, most of the premium-level reds under screwcap I've tasted have not had this character, maybe they get the extra care and preparation for bottling that the cheaper wines don't get?

Has anyone else struck many stinky wines under screwcap?

I've been concerned about this for a number of months - until the last couple of weeks I was starting to wonder whether I was becoming jaded or too picky because of the number of wines (premium & otherwise) I thought had reductive and/or brett faults this year (not just under screwcap either: I've struck quite a few quite reductive wines under natural cork too).

This following is one pretty good argument that there is bottle variation under screwcap - I've had this one particular wine (which I won't name) for the last three years (blind & otherwise) with these very different experiences:

On release (a number of bottles) it was quite an attractive, ripe wine, and then last year I struck two very stinky/reductive bottles that were almost undrinkable. At the beginning of this year I told this to the winemaker who opened one to find it a little stinky (but nowhere near as bad as the two previous ones). Very recently we had another which was in absolutely perfect shape, with ripe fruit and nutty oak.

I suspect that storage/handling just could be a major part to do with this - since screwcaps have come into play some retailers/consumers have assumed the wines are bulletproof. Walk into your average wine outlet and you see wines stored upright in bright sunlight/under bright lights, with no consideration to the heat the wines are subject to.

Is it just a coincidence that there are quite a few bretty/reductive wines at the same time as the majority at grocery-style outlets are being exposed to this? Is it a sulphur management/bottle closure issue, or could it also be a side effect of the massive volume of new wine flooding the market from inexperienced winemakers?

I think you've just scratched the surface of this one Brian.

Cheers,
Ian

RB,

I can't say it has been a problem for me. I have had some ordinary reds displaying reductive character, although I suspect many of these wine's would have been ordinary and showing reductive character under cork.

Similarly with talk of bottle variation under screwcap. I have experienced reasonable amounts of bottle variation in some screwcap wines, but again I think the reasons lie more readily with glass/temperature/mood/food/storage or bottling/batch variations than with the wines themselves.

And I agree with the coment on the De Bortoli SV. I too was prompted to try a bottle on the back of the wine show results (or perhaps it received a good write up)....bored me to tears.

Cheers,

LL

RE: Tollana - I used to love this brand. The first wine I ever bought multiple bottles of. I think I got 6 x Shiraz and 6 x Cabernet at $8.99 a bottle and that was full RRP. Then I discovered the Riesling and even the Chardonnay was pretty good in the last few years.

I just haven't bothered even tasting the new releases. New winemaker, new corporate owner and I think different regions in some cases. It was never going to live up to past glories for me.

edit: sorry, a bit off topic. I haven't really encountered the same problems with screwcaps but I'm just a drinker, not a taster so I'm probably not as picky.

n4sir wrote:On release (a number of bottles) it was quite an attractive, ripe wine, and then last year I struck two very stinky/reductive bottles that were almost undrinkable. At the beginning of this year I told this to the winemaker who opened one to find it a little stinky (but nowhere near as bad as the two previous ones). Very recently we had another which was in absolutely perfect shape, with ripe fruit and nutty oak.

I think proper 'bottle variation' ought to be restricted to bottles with identical cellaring histories opened in reasonably close (time) proximity to each other. I don't think you can say '2 years ago it was horrible, a year ago it was lovely, and last night it was average' and then claim bottle variation...
cheers,
Graeme

Red Bigot wrote:Wirra Wirra Scrubby Rise Shiraz-dominant blend 2005, a cheapy that showed up quite well.

It is a pretty useful drink now/soon cheapie isn't it Brian?

I've had a couple of bottles of Wolf Blass Grey Label 04 recently and didn't notice any such problem with it.

daz

Yes, the Scrubby Rise red is a pretty good quaffer but I much prefer the 2004 vintage over the 2005. Perhaps with a little more time in the bottle the 2005 will improve.......

Cheers.........Mahmoud.

James Halliday agrees with you Mahmoud.

he gave the 04 a remarkably high rating and long drinking window.

GraemeG wrote:I think proper 'bottle variation' ought to be restricted to bottles with identical cellaring histories opened in reasonably close (time) proximity to each other. I don't think you can say '2 years ago it was horrible, a year ago it was lovely, and last night it was average' and then claim bottle variation...
cheers,
Graeme

GG agree totally.

This may help explain why. Damned if You Do - Screwed if You Don't

Well, we had a dozen Seppelt Chalambar 2004 that were consumed over a period of a month. 2 bottles were superb, 2 were undrinkable and the other 8 ranged somewhere between.

Is that bottle variation?

Davo wrote:Well, we had a dozen Seppelt Chalambar 2004 that were consumed over a period of a month. 2 bottles were superb, 2 were undrinkable and the other 8 ranged somewhere between.

Is that bottle variation?

I'd think a pretty good example. What was the closure?

GrahamB wrote:

Davo wrote:Well, we had a dozen Seppelt Chalambar 2004 that were consumed over a period of a month. 2 bottles were superb, 2 were undrinkable and the other 8 ranged somewhere between.

Is that bottle variation?

I'd think a pretty good example. What was the closure?

Screwed

Davo wrote:

GrahamB wrote:

Davo wrote:Well, we had a dozen Seppelt Chalambar 2004 that were consumed over a period of a month. 2 bottles were superb, 2 were undrinkable and the other 8 ranged somewhere between.

Is that bottle variation?

I'd think a pretty good example. What was the closure?

Screwed

Precicely. Next option?

GrahamB wrote:

Davo wrote:

GrahamB wrote:

Davo wrote:Well, we had a dozen Seppelt Chalambar 2004 that were consumed over a period of a month. 2 bottles were superb, 2 were undrinkable and the other 8 ranged somewhere between.

Is that bottle variation?

I'd think a pretty good example. What was the closure?

Screwed

Precicely. Next option?

I am actually warming to the Diam.

I have seen no bottle variation so far, and we consumed a dozen Warabilla cleanskins over the same period as the Chalambar.

Neither have I found a TCA affected wine, and certainly none of them suffered with reductive faults or excess sulfur on opening.

I'll get the printers working on your DIAM membership card. Just let me know when you have had the surgery to remove screwed reds.

Davo wrote:

GrahamB wrote:

Davo wrote:Well, we had a dozen Seppelt Chalambar 2004 that were consumed over a period of a month. 2 bottles were superb, 2 were undrinkable and the other 8 ranged somewhere between.

Is that bottle variation?

I'd think a pretty good example. What was the closure?

Screwed

I have also found bottle variation under screwcap, but never that much. - so much for the consistency of seal. I wonder what the reason is?

TORB wrote:

Davo wrote:

GrahamB wrote:

Davo wrote:Well, we had a dozen Seppelt Chalambar 2004 that were consumed over a period of a month. 2 bottles were superb, 2 were undrinkable and the other 8 ranged somewhere between.

Is that bottle variation?

I'd think a pretty good example. What was the closure?

Screwed

I have also found bottle variation under screwcap, but never that much. - so much for the consistency of seal. I wonder what the reason is?

I bought 3 Chalambar 2004, have used 2 in tasting lineups, neither ranked highly against peers in price and failed to impress me, one seemed to have some sort of fault that stripped the fruit and left an acidic unpleasant shell, the other was better, but just ordinary. Maybe the third will be good, but I definitely won't be buying more of this.

Given the large number of reported faults with the 2004 Chalambar, who is going to do the detective work to find out the cause?

Red Bigot wrote:Given the large number of reported faults with the 2004 Chalambar, who is going to do the detective work to find out the cause?

It's all in the preparation of the wine just before bottling. At the Brisbane Wine show in July, I was amased at the consistancy of the wines made by Majella. Every Majella wine (in a set of 5 bottles) in the class was the same as the bottle before. Many other makers wines showed some variation from bottle to bottle. Others were just all bad.

I made my observations known to Brian when I saw him at the Coonawarra Roadshow and asked what Majella did so well that others were not doing so well. He said his winemaker drove them mad about cleanliness and checking the wine before, during and at the end of the bottling run. I think he should be happy to be driven mad. The medication will not cost as much as the profit he will make from wine as consistent as these.

Is it just me or does this whole thing feel like deja vu? The topic, the reactions, the lot

wineguy wrote:Is it just me or does this whole thing feel like deja vu? The topic, the reactions, the lot

Yep. There will always be bottle/batch and palate/time variation and I've not had a corked wine under a screwcap seal. Though there does seem to be a signifcant number who ascribe "reductive" character to some, many, or even most screwcapped wines, IF I've experienced it I've not recognised it and the wine has continued to improve with air exposure just as has a wine sealed by traditional cork that hadn't tainted the wine.

I've drunk wines sealed by tradtional cork (truckloads), diam, screwcap and zork. Diam is still cork and though highly processed I don't consider it to be totally immune from taint because of the cork content. I also question it's ability to oxygenate a wine over time any more than screwcap or zork. Zork seals seem to be a superior alternative to cork, diam or screwcap(because zork is possibly more robust) but I question the longevity of the plastic used as many plastics become brittle over time.

Can anyone give a lucid, detailed desciption of the "reductive" character so many find in wines sealed by screwcap? All I've been able deduce is that it's related to sulphur compounds used as preservatives for wine. Don't cork sealed wines display the same problem when young?

Is there a point to be made here? By anyone?

daz

Daz,

Read the link in my post.

Daryl Douglas wrote:Can anyone give a lucid, detailed desciption of the "reductive" character so many find in wines sealed by screwcap? All I've been able deduce is that it's related to sulphur compounds used as preservatives for wine.

daz

Daz,

You might also want to check out this page of Tom Stevenson's excellent Guide to Aromas and Flavours, published on Tom Cannavan's UK Wine Pages site. Scroll down to the sections on "Mercaptans" and "Other Volatile Sulphur Compounds".

Regards,

Nayan

Thanks Ric and Nayan. I'll check out the links right now.

Cheers

daz