The Auswine Forum

Interesting article in the last AustralianGourmet Wine. Being a cork snob I was glad to see that the stelvin was seen to have just as many concerns as cork - probably more. It's hard to know who to believe these days, I only want to know that the wine I lay down now will be fine in 5 - 10 years. I guess I'll just have to rely on Dionysus.

Graham,

This topic was dicussed on this thread.

http://www.auswine.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=520

Being a cork snob I was glad to see that the stelvin was seen to have just as many concerns as cork - probably more.

That is ony Paul's opinion, and he was selective in his comments, particularly in relation to the AWRI trial where the reductive character was also found is samples sealed with cork.

The concerns are with winemaking, not screwcap, just as it should be and not left to the vagiaries of the seal.

It will be interesting to read Houn Hooke's comments in the folloiwng issue.

I have found little or no reductive characters in the screwcapped wines I'm drinking, including a splendid 2001 Taylors Jaraman Shiraz tasted last night (well priced at $35)

Murray

Murray wrote:The concerns are with winemaking, not screwcap, just as it should be and not left to the vagiaries of the seal.

Murray,

True enough but it also stated that minor flaws which may not show up under cork can and do become more evident with ROTE.

FWIW, IMO the article looked 'reasonably' balanced to me.

Ric,

FWIW, IMO the article looked 'reasonably' balanced to me.

yes, you made that comment in the orginal thread.

TORB wrote:True enough but it also stated that minor flaws which may not show up under cork can and do become more evident with ROTE.

So if the cork is masking flaws, what are the positive points it's also masking?

Murray wrote:So if the cork is masking flaws, what are the positive points it's also masking?

Murray,

It took you 35 nano seconds to respond to a cork/ROTE post, you are getting slow in your old age.

I said cork "may" -- not "will" mask flaws. As to your question we don't know but by the same token its just as 'possible' that a cork seal could enhance the development and flavour of wine. (Assuming the bloody thing don't fail or stuff up the wine with TCA.) Frankly we just don't know, there is no proof, only a lot of personal opinion.

When will we hear the end of this???

TORB wrote:Frankly we just don't know, there is no proof, only a lot of personal opinion.

You're right, it is personal opinion.

One of the four major wine companies exercises their personal opinion and rejects 50% of cork batches tested after testing.

Michael Brajkovich exercises his personal opinion and rejects 40% of cork batches on initial testing.

My personal opnion is expressed in finding that the 2 NZ wines sealed in cork have demonstrably different, and lesser, characters out of a lineup of 9 at the NZ tasting.

Southcorp exercises their personal opinion and bottles their Oz/US Talomas and Kiralaa ranges in synthetic rather than cork.

and so on.

Murray

Rob wrote:When will we hear the end of this???

Rob,

We won't, it's the nature of the Internet that these subjects keep going around, it's like mentioning Parker on a US board.

I'm not sure we'll see an issue more contentious, and that raises the ire of so many, than this on the board for the next 2 years.

It's a pity, because there's only so many ways you can say you are for or against.

What do they say - idle hands are the work...

Murray wrote:One of the four major wine companies exercises their personal opinion and rejects 50% of cork batches tested after testing.

Murray,

You make it sound like that first major wine company rejects half of all batches of cork they have ever received and we both know thats simply not true.

The difference between us is that you are convinced that corks are crap and that Stelvins are the answer to all the wine seal problems. On the other hand, I hate what corks to do to wine but I have an open mind about possible solutions.

It's true that a lot more cork is being refused due to slackarse quality control overseas....but stelvin's are far from perfect unless you produce squeaky clean wine....so it's in the winemakers court .....unless you contol your sulfphide levels your buggered....stelvin closures are still in the learning curve stage so I think they will win out within 5 years or so

Maybe wine in tinnies is the answer

Dave

You make it sound like that first major wine company rejects half of all batches of cork they have ever received and we both know thats simply not true

Ric,

You may not believe it's true, however because it was said to me directly by a knowlexdgable representative of the company in question I'm not about to call him a liar.

They are rejecting 50% of all cork batches tested, a while back it was 15% (which was still high)..

Murray,

Do they test every batch they receive?

Brian,

The discussion was more about non cork closures and the discussion didn't go that far.

There is nothing so tedious as a fanatic.

guest wrote:There is nothing so tedious as a fanatic.

Yes, the pro-cork fanatics are tedious

guest wrote:There is nothing so tedious as a fanatic.

Thanks for sharing man.

.. In the latest rockford newsletter some very valid points were raised.With screwcaps becoming more common, especially in cheaper wines..demand on cork suppliers will be reduced and more quality cork will be available. Also there is a lot of r & d going on into TCA and i think if it can be beaten then i'll stick with cork, at least for 50% of my red wines...and try a few Stelvins..hopefully of the same wine to compare. The jury is still out on screwcaps and the cork producers are working hard to overcome TCA so i'll stick with the old until the new proves itself.

Cheers

Paul

The great solution to TCA has been announced, then announced and announced yet again by the cork manufacturers. When that doesn't work, either the solution is around the corner or we are told that alternative closures will lead to environmental devastation in Portugal. Pulleasssssse!
Too many good bottles have been spoiled by crappy corks. Out of about 4 dozen screwcapped wines that I would have shared in in the past 12 months, only one had a problem, a knock to the cap had caused some leakage (and I might add that the wine was quite drinkable, if advanced for its age).

I am voting with my wallet and always choosing screw cap where available. On the basis of my experience with riesling, it is wine producers who persist with cork who's products spend too much time waiting for a buyer. I expect this trend to rapidly spread to most areas of the wine market.

Matthew

got into an interesting discussion regarding this with a Dr of Chemistry the other day. (my wine chemistry lecturer)

A couple of points - Maybe TCA is not to blame???? or trichloroanisole. Now he says current thinking is that the chlorine part of TCA which seems to be the damaging must come from somewhere if it is to do the damage. and it was originally believed to be from the cork bleaching of corks, however on recent tests with Oxygen bleaching TCA was still there so interesting problem. Maybe TCA is present in all wine, i think it is detectable at 8 parts per million or something like that, but in tainted wine the levels are higher for some unknown reason.

Point two - stelvin or ROTE part of the aging process of any wine is oxidation chemical reactions, the browning and crusting etc is all process of oxidation, but using a twist closure no oxygen will get to the wine and aging of wines will take many times longer, a long with a mess of other problems.

in many cases changing to screw tops appears to be swapping one lot of problems for another. without the presence of oxygen a reducing environement thrives and if any h2s is still in the pressence of the wine when sealed by rote it will become permanently bound in the wine over time without the presence of oxygen and produce a reduced or rubber flavour. (See AWRI Feb 2003 Technical Review no. 142)

I have no opinion either way, just point out some chemistry for you to ponder. I dont think that screw cap is the second coming, however i have had enough corked wine not trust corks either, maybe is should drink from the barrell???

Brett

, but using a twist closure no oxygen will get to the wine and aging of wines will take many times longer, a long with a mess of other problems

.

Brett,

With a good cork oxygen will not get to the wine either. The cork industry themsleves say that, at best, there should be no more exchange that to the bottom 1/8" of the cork. Any more and the cork isn't doing it's job.

Your statement, and ensuing argument, ignores the oxygen present in the wine at the time of bottling, this oxygen addresses the reduction element your describe, along with the suplhur stabilisation issues that have been noted as being a fault in procedure in the AWRI trail.

In the latest report of the AWRI trial (Australian & New Zealand Grapegrower and Winemaker, August 2003) they note that the reference 3 cork, Altec cork and one plus one corks also showed reductive characters.

As mentioned previously, it may be that low-level copper fining or changes to other winemaking processes before bottling might have avoided the development of this aroma.

The discussion on TCA from this report also notes that TCA was encountered in all 8 bottles sealed in Altec, 3/8 One plus One, 4/8 Reference 2 and 2/8 reference three, and none in screwcap of the bottles opened at 36 months.

Addressing reductive factors is a winemaking issue, quite rightly, and not left up to the assumed level of fault of the cork in letting oxygen through.

Murray wrote:
Brett,

With a good cork oxygen will not get to the wine either. The cork industry themsleves say that, at best, there should be no more exchange that to the bottom 1/8" of the cork. Any more and the cork isn't doing it's job.

Your statement, and ensuing argument, ignores the oxygen present in the wine at the time of bottling, this oxygen addresses the reduction element your describe, along with the suplhur stabilisation issues that have been noted as being a fault in procedure in the AWRI trail.

Murray, your enthusiasm is noted, however you raise 2 interesting points.

1. Maybe the "cork isn't doing its job" is precisely why wines age the way they do, and obviously why not all wine age the same under cork. As noted in comments alleged to have been made by Keith Mugford the best cork ages wine the same as, and is in fact indistinguishable from, wine aged under ROTE, but this is the rare exception rather than the rule.

Perhaps then the more common and lesser standard cork is the one we should be looking at, where the seal is not as good and the is some interaction between air and wine.

We have all had wine from under corks that have allowed the passage of wine and the wine has been fine. The last I had were 2 wines only last week, a 1996 Perth Hills shiraz and a 1997 Great Southern Shiraz. Both were more advanced than others I have had from the same boxes but neither was in any way undrinkable. In fact they were both superb and I found myself wishing that the other wines had aged as well.

We have all aslo had wines from under cork that has ullaged to one degree or another without there being any evidence of wine going past the cork and still been fine. Are you trying to tell me that the ullaged wine has all been absorbed by the bottom 8th of an inch of cork, and that the air that fills the space vacated by the wine (or else the would be a vacuum) also came from the lower 8th of an inch of cork. Oh and the wine is usually intact.

2. Oxygen present in the wine at bottling is also a bit of a furphy. What you are really talking about is dissolved AIR present in the wine at bottling, and unless I am mistaken near enough to 80% of air is made up of inert gases and only around 20% is oxygen. Large volume producers and contract bottling companies bottle wine either under inert gas or vacuum so the problem of air under the cork is really limited to small producers who bottle their own and have poor equipment for transferring the wine from vat to bottling plant.

Murray, I to agree that there are too many corked wines. However I would prefer to keep an open mind in regard to new closures. I do own wines that have been sealed under ROTE but, as I tend to drink most of my aged wines at between 6 and 10 years because I do like the way they have developed at that stage I will probably continue to buy mostly wines under cork despite the risk of TCA.

Davo wrote:
Murray, your enthusiasm is noted, however you raise 2 interesting points.

I quote from external documentation and my post is dismissed as 'enthusiasm'.

Davo, I'm not making this up.

If you're going to be pedantic, read 'air' for 'oxygen', I used the term oxygen as that had been used in the post I was answering.

I have never said that all wine under cork is faulty, although others have ascribed that quote to me. You talk about wine from bottles with bad ullage as being fine, I've had plenty of those as well; but is 'fine' really representative of what those wines could have been with a good seal?

Large volume producers and contract bottling companies bottle wine either under inert gas or vacuum so the problem of air under the cork is really limited to small producers who bottle their own and have poor equipment for transferring the wine from vat to bottling plant

Precisely my point, if the problem is lack of air in the headspace, then change the mix of the inert gas to make it a touch more ert.

Put the control in the winemaker's hands, don't leave it up to the vagaries of a cork that is one of the cheapest components of the wine.

I refer you to the photo below, of the four bottles the one on the left was 'fine', had aged well and was not overly oxidised. The bottle second from the left was TCA tainted.

Muzz, I luv ya dearly, but I don't think you're enthusiastic.

No, I think you are as mad as a cut snake when it comes to stelvins.

That's not to say you mightn't be right, but it's a brave person who'll take on a debate with you on this topic.

I like stelvins, but I'm afraid I'm with Ric on this one - I'm not convinced. I've heard too many people in the wine industry express concerns about how wines develop under stelvin to be willing to take a punt on a wine I'm laying down for 10 years.

I think the good thing about all this is that it really has forced the cork industry to pull their finger out - and if manufacturers are now rejecting 50% of corks, all the better.

Cheers, buddy.

Celia

Murray, you gotta ease up man and open your mind. Iwas using the term enthusiasm because I did not want to use the term fanatic.

You want a swap to ROTE closures at all costs. It is the costs that I am afraid about.

You talk about wine makers adjusting to bottling under ROTE as though wine making is a scientific certainty, and all measurements are made under degrees of mathematical certainty. This is fortunately not the case or all wine would be identical.

You have obviously made up your mind, but I have to tell you the only mind that is 100% certain about anything is a closed one.

Murray, even the wine producers have not made up their minds. Why should you. Trials of wines bottled under ROTE have been going on since the 70s and the fact that it is not in common use for premium wines, or even quaffers for that matter, cannot all be put down to lack of consumer interest. All I ask is that you keep an open mind.

Davo wrote:Murray, you gotta ease up man and open your mind. Iwas using the term enthusiasm because I did not want to use the term fanatic.

You want a swap to ROTE closures at all costs. It is the costs that I am afraid about.

You talk about wine makers adjusting to bottling under ROTE as though wine making is a scientific certainty, and all measurements are made under degrees of mathematical certainty. This is fortunately not the case or all wine would be identical.

You have obviously made up your mind, but I have to tell you the only mind that is 100% certain about anything is a closed one.

Murray, even the wine producers have not made up their minds. Why should you. Trials of wines bottled under ROTE have been going on since the 70s and the fact that it is not in common use for premium wines, or even quaffers for that matter, cannot all be put down to lack of consumer interest. All I ask is that you keep an open mind.

Piffle.

You haven't read what I've written.

Davo wrote:You want a swap to ROTE closures at all costs

Murray wrote:I have never said that all wine under cork is faulty, although others have ascribed that quote to me.

.

And you're another.

Murray

PLCB wrote:I've heard too many people in the wine industry express concerns about how wines develop under stelvin to be willing to take a punt on a wine I'm laying down for 10 years.
Celia

Celia,

Dilemma time:

Your partner is turning 50 next year, your local liquor store has two bottles of 1954 Hardys Show Port, stored side by side since bottling. One is in screwcap with a level into the neck, the other is in a T-top cork with a level at high soulder.

Both have the same price.

Which do you buy for your partner as a pressie for their 50th?

Murray

btw this is not a hypothetical, this pair was available in Geelong not long back.

Davo

How do you keep an open mind if you have decided you will probably buy most of your wine with cork closures - seems a bit contradictory.

As a matter of relevance, the latest Moss Wood newsletter states they will be producing only 30% of their wine in future under cork because of consumer response to screwcap - and if you opt for the cork option you will not be able to go back and get a replacement for a TCA affected bottle because you gave up the chance to avoid it by not opting for the screwcap option.

Also of great interest is the recent Sydney and Melbourne Cabernet tastings they held, where they compared the same wines under cork and screwcap. The screwcap wines were consistent and virtually identical, whereas the cork ones varied enormously. To quote, "we are now very suspicious that many corks do not seal well at all and the wine under those corks is aging far more quickly than it should". As you would be aware from opening their wines, they do not use cheap corks on their Cabernet.


Brett

Regarding the AWRI research, if a wine has Hydrogen Sulphide at bottling time, that is a fault. It is not the fault of the screwcap if the seal is so good that it cannot escape !

regards
Chris

I was all for screwcaps..and still have an open mind to them..but a winemaker friend of mine who is head winemaker for a leading NZ Vineyard said he was not convinced on screwcaps yet..he has concerns on the aging of wines , especially reds under screwcaps, and while he will be bottling reisling and some sav blancs under screwcaps, he is resisting to do more than 10% of his reds under the screwcap. He is doing a small amount as a trial.

If winemakers and many others in the industry are hestitant, then i think the safe thing to do is hedge your bets for the time being and buy a mix of both screwcap and cork of the same wines if available.

Who knows..someone might develop a seal that leaves both cork and screwcaps in the dust..we can only hope

Cheers

Paul T

ChrisH wrote:Davo

How do you keep an open mind if you have decided you will probably buy most of your wine with cork closures - seems a bit contradictory.

As a matter of relevance, the latest Moss Wood newsletter states they will be producing only 30% of their wine in future under cork because of consumer response to screwcap - and if you opt for the cork option you will not be able to go back and get a replacement for a TCA affected bottle because you gave up the chance to avoid it by not opting for the screwcap option.

Also of great interest is the recent Sydney and Melbourne Cabernet tastings they held, where they compared the same wines under cork and screwcap. The screwcap wines were consistent and virtually identical, whereas the cork ones varied enormously. To quote, "we are now very suspicious that many corks do not seal well at all and the wine under those corks is aging far more quickly than it should". As you would be aware from opening their wines, they do not use cheap corks on their Cabernet.


Brett

Regarding the AWRI research, if a wine has Hydrogen Sulphide at bottling time, that is a fault. It is not the fault of the screwcap if the seal is so good that it cannot escape !

regards
Chris

Ah Chris,

It is very easy to keep an open mind since 90% of the wines I buy are not available in screwcap anyway. That is not to say I do not have wines in my collection under screwcap as indeed I do. Some of them are over 30 years old, dating back to when I first got into wine.

A question for you, hypothetical I am sure. Will Moss Wood bow to public opinion and bottle under cork again if they find problems with ROTE and ageing in the future. And will they happily accept returns in dozen batches of sulfide affected wine, or perhaps run a general recall of the entire vintage. Interesting thought.

Oh, and as to Hydrogen Sulfide in wine. It is a productive of reductive reaction of xs sulfides and usually is created in the bottle as if present before bottling it is readily evident and the wine rejected.

Ah Murray,

I read everything you said with interest, but do not find your argument compelling. I find the argument ( as displayed by the general lack of interest in ROTE), far more compelling. And they have had 30 years+ playing with the things. I await their general consensus and will happily accepth their direction.

If it was all down to public perception stopping them, and the return rate on their wines was high, and expensive, under cork, I'm sure they would have bottled under ROTE and run a PR campaign. Advertising does work. Why, even McD can sell things loosely resembling hamburgers. Surely the multi-billion dollar wine industry can sell a screw cap over a piece of bark, if it wants to.

My question remains. If ROTE is as good as all its proponents say it is why is cork still being used, especially after over 30 years experience in the industry with ROTE?