The Auswine Forum

I have just opened a new Majella Shiraz 2003.
Compared to the exact same vintage I tried just a few weeks earlier, this new bottle seems to be slightly more flat and even say... watery at times. This is a screw cap bottle by the way.

I have witnessed some bottle variations with wines capped using corks, but this time it got me asking.

What is it exactly that I might be experiencing here?

Most likely some physiological deficiency on your part? Open another wine that you are familiar with and see if that is how you expect it too.
GW

Gary W wrote:Most likely some physiological deficiency on your part?

Highly unlikely.

The bottle was notably flat and it had the character of slightly not developed. Everything seemed to be hiding behind a cloudy layer.

Anyone else got any comments?>

Gary W wrote:Most likely some physiological deficiency on your part?
GW

Ignore Gary's social deficiencies - he's being provocative.

However the point is valid, that our palates can vary depending on mood; serving temperature; whether we've eaten food and what the last thing we tasted was (amongst other things). A Mount Mary wine tasted alongisde a mid-range French equivalent, would seem different to the same wine tasted alongside a host of "fruit bombs". Our memories are not precise measurers.


Bottle variation can logically still occur in screwcaps, for instance by way of different fill levels or in larger volume wines, by subtely different batches or different conditions present at bottling. I'd still expect some variation, just not what we have to suffer with cork.

regards

Ian

That seems to just about cover it Ian. The first part could well explain the taste difference, the second, the latter. Maybe the latest bottle was one that needed longer in the cellar.

BTW there's no indication of just what the first bottle tasted like. And the initial comment was "slightly".

I am not being funny here at all. Quite serious. If you have the onset of a cold or are on anti-biotics or a whole raft of physiological reasons can make a wine taste flat. It happens all the time. It is quite natural for most of us to look for faults anywhere else but in ourselves. Point was if you can it is always useful to open a bottle of something you know as a control sample i.e. is it me or the wine? It could of course be the screwcapped bottle but I just think this is the least likely explanation.

I agree too. The 03 Majella Shiraz is (or should tast like) a delicous ripe wine.
GW

Last year a friend of mine opened a Saltrams Pinnacle riesling under screw cap and was blown away by the quality of the wine. Crisp, citric, with incredible mouthfeel, floral overtones and a long palate. So taken was he with the wine, the following night he brought a bottle to my place to try. Imagine his disappointment when I tasted the new bottle and pronounced it as flat as a pancake! Couldn't blame cork taint this time. I believe that some screw caps do not give a 100% seal and consequently a more rapid than usual oxidation process begins. Whilst the wine does not appear oxidised as such, the freshness and lifted fruit has gone. If during storage and distribution, a carton is plonked on top of another carton with enough force, the screw cap can become damaged or bent just enough to allow air access. This is not a subject I have heard discussed before in general forums but a slightly imperfect screw cap has to be a possibility and will definately have a profound affect on the wine. Has any one else experienced this? Comments anyone?

Shadrach,

I may be wrong but my senile old brain remembers the Saltram Pinnacle Riesling as a botrytis wine sourced from the Coonawarra that I don't think that I have seen around for about ten years. I am not sure that crisp and acidic would describe the wine that I remember and I do not recall them being sealed under screwcap. What vintage was the wine in question?

Roger

Roger said
I may be wrong but my senile old brain remembers the Saltram Pinnacle Riesling as a botrytis wine sourced from the Coonawarra that I don't think that I have seen around for about ten years. I am not sure that crisp and acidic would describe the wine that I remember and I do not recall them being sealed under screwcap. What vintage was the wine in question.
Reply:
Saltram brought out a whole range of wines under the pinnacle label and most that I tried were very good.

However I must apologise and admit that my memory is in decline. I just checked with my friend and it wasn't a Saltram wine at all that suffered from a poor screw cap. It was in fact a Yalumba 1998 Contours riesling from Eden Valley. The wine went on to win 14 trophies so there is no doubt about the quality. Something caused this wine to go flat and lose all its fruit flavours. Was it the screw cap???????

Shadrach,

So this was a wine that "did not appear oxidised as such" and yet you are suggesting a possible cause was a damaged screwcap. I realise that this event took place last year but do you recall any evidence of damage?

Have you experienced any more recent cases of possible screwcap damage?

Roger

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Thanks for everyone's input on this as this has been the first such 'bad' screw cap experience for me, and it does seem like its a possibility as some others also experienced the same as I did?

I do agree wholeheartedly that sometimes it could be traced down to physiological differences (meals eaten, oncoming sickness, general mood, time of day/month). In this case however both me and my partner experienced the same effect and we were just looking each other in the eye wondering what'd happened..

I stopped short of calling the bottle oxidised as it wasn't turning porty in colour and taste yet, and I can normally tell oxidation affected or a cork tainted bottle. In this case it was just really flat and didn't open up more (even after 24 hours) and it already started off being slightly watery-like anyway. In hindsight I think it could well be showing small signs of oxidation?

hmmmm looking at this topic more carefully I've decided to give it my two cents

recently I bought a bottle of Mt Hurtle GSM 2004 sealed under screwcap.

It was flat and watery, had a wierd taste too as well. This discussion is interesting because i found anotherbottle and was wondering whether i should return it or not, but maybe i will crack it open and see whether iti s any better!

I think you get some bottles that have been affected by heat. Possibly an outer case on a pallet that sat on a truck in the sun during transportation.

Richard said

So this was a wine that "did not appear oxidised as such" and yet you are suggesting a possible cause was a damaged screwcap. I realise that this event took place last year but do you recall any evidence of damage?

Have you experienced any more recent cases of possible screwcap damage?

I guess I am grasping at straws here Roger and trying to determine why an otherwise good wine suddenly appears flat and with out any of its normal fruit character. The answer to your two questions is No and No, however with the protection of the cardboard box it is highly likely that there would be no mark on the cap even if it has suffered a serious knock.

Shadrach,

Given correct application at the bottling line I would think that the probability of the seal being compromised without any evidence of damage to the cap would be zero.

I should perhaps mention that I have sold thousands of bottles of screwcapped wines over the past two and a half years and I have yet to hear of any occasion of a damaged cap or a compromised seal.

Roger

Apart from all the physiological variables of the taster, I'm fast coming to the conclusion that screwcaps, for whatever reason/s, are not providing the consistency so many of us hoped they might. From several different producers over quite a few vintages, I'm noticing a varying degree of reduction, oxidation and plain old botlle-variation. From reading Campbell's recent essay on the subject, I'm intending, over the next several months, to compile a controlled experiment of trying the same wine (from the same case, stored in my cellar for the same amount of time) next to each other, hopefully with a few experienced tasters in attendance from time to time to calibrate and justify the exercise.

David,

I have run that experiment on about sixty occasions over the past five years, both with my own wines and various others.

1. Some reductive characters in a couple of wines but no worse than my experience under cork. In fact the most reductive wines that I have seen in the last couple of years have been under cork.

2. No oxidation.

3. No bottle variation.

4. Guess what, no TCA either!

That is why I use screwcaps for my wines.

I look forward to your results.

Roger

Yesterday at Plonk Oz I tried a freshly opened Fox Creek 2004 Short Row Shiraz. I could not beleive that FC was capable of making such a crappy wine. There was no detectable fault; it certainly was not oxidised, reductive etc, the faults you may normally associate with screwcaps. The wine was overly acidic, disjointed and had a revolting after tatse.

I knew the Helen (who was on the stand well) and suggested she check the bottle. The expression on here face was priceless; when she tasted the wine she looked like she was sucking on lemons.

The next bottle was terrific.

Bottle variation and duds under screwcaps? Sure thing - they do happen but at least its less than with corks.