The Auswine Forum

Why is this grape so maligned? Yes earlier versions were overworked and over oaked with little ability to age but lately winemakers are getting it pretty right. I just love cool climate Chards from Yarra Valley and Adelaide Hills etc. After all Penfolds decided on it for the "white Grange". There must be something in it? Aren't great Chablis etc from France based on this grape?

2 contributing bigots may be too set in their ways to make unbiased comments. What about the rest of you?

Talk about leaning into a left hook!

Chuck

While I quite like the idea of cellaring chardonnay, I also quite like oaky (and perhaps worked not sure whether the ones I have had qualify) chardonnays. In my mind the more cellarable whites are the rieslings and semillons. The chardonnays that can cellar are far too expensive imo.

Chuck,

Make no mistake, despite any negative comments about Australian Chardonnay and Chardonnay in general, it is the King of White Grapes, like most would suggest either Cabernet Sauvignon or Pinot Noir is the King of Red Grapes.

I state the above even though 9 times out of 10 I sit down to a Riesling, Semillon or Harslevelu. Nonetheless, the greatest white wines are made from Chardonnay. Furthermore, the styles of wines that Chardonnay can produce are phenomenal. Unfortunately, some of the worst are too. It is a grape that lends itself to too much manipulation at times.

Kind regards,
Adair

I agree. Chardonnay is a grape titan. I sometimes wonder if some of the people who rubbish Chardonnay are indulging in some snobbery- because it is has such broad appeal, there is no exclusivity in saying that you like it. Conversely, saying that you like arneis or pinot gris etc (and dislike chardonnay) makes you sound more interesting and individual.

Chuck, serious question: where have you seen the rubbishing of Chardonnay?
On Boards like this I cant recall anyone getting seriously stuck into it, but the media likes to tell us that the Bistro set wont drink it any more.

I guess its true, at $10 it seems hard to make good quality, interesting Chardy. I cant recall trying a really good one at that price. Perhaps this is where the "complaint" lies? At $50 its a lot easier, and there are a number I can think of froom Aus, NZ and even Chablis that are very classy at $30 to $50. North of $50, there are some real table lifters out there.

AB

I think chardonnay gets rubbished because it is so much of a muchness sometimes

However we all know that a great chardonnay with 3 or 4 years bottle age on it can be an amazing experience. Quite a number of my top wine experiences are chardonnay.

I only tend to buy a few favourite labels these days, but they always tend to impress

Chardonnay is the queen of grapes. If I have a white, 95% of the time it will be a Chardonnay. It is versatile and can be made in many different styles to suit differing circumstances.

Versatile? How so Linc, besides oaked or unoaked?

I'm getting very, very sick and tired of the heavily oaked chardies out there. The wood overshadows the fruit and they become a drink, not a wine to be enjoyed and savoured. There. I've had my dummy spit.

Riesling on the other hand, despite not having oak treatment, is really versatile. Bone dry Clare, off-dry, mediums and sweets from NZ and Germany, luscious riesling of Alsace... there is a real diversity of styles, more so than chardonnay IMO.

I don't think chardonnay is better or worse than any grape, and I have no preference either way despite the fact that I drink more riesling. At the top end, chardonnays can develop amazing complexity. But then so to can great German rieslings. Similarly, I have no preference for shiraz or cabernet - there's a place for all varieties for my palate. Although the "sameness" of lower end chardonnay and warm climate shiraz from Australia does tend to bore me.

Maximus wrote:Versatile? How so Linc, besides oaked or unoaked?

I'm getting very, very sick and tired of the heavily oaked chardies out there. The wood overshadows the fruit and they become a drink, not a wine to be enjoyed and savoured. There. I've had my dummy spit.

Riesling on the other hand, despite not having oak treatment, is really versatile. Bone dry Clare, off-dry, mediums and sweets from NZ and Germany, luscious riesling of Alsace... there is a real diversity of styles, more so than chardonnay IMO.

There is a world of Chardonnay besides oaked or heavily oaked versions. Some quick Chardonnay related thoughts that I think show more versatility than Riesling are.

* The great grape of Champagne
* Bone dry, high acid with no oak and immense aging potential, such Chablis - similar to Australian dry Riesling if you like
* Dry, unwooded and ripe and typically cheap - similar to Sauv Blanc or cheaper Rieslings if you like (Note: I rarely drink either)
* The odd great sweet wine from Chardonnay can be found - take the 2005 Herzog - although I agree not largely a common use for the grape but there are other examples.
* Wooded in various oak types and lengths of time to create different wines - the better ones still have serious aging potential.
* Going through malolactic or not to create a different types of wine.
* Able to be grown in massively different climates.

Agree that there is real comparison for Chardonnay for off-sweet Riesling but there needs to be something that Riesling can do that Chardonnay can not!

Adair

Baby Chickpea wrote:I don't think chardonnay is better or worse than any grape, and I have no preference either way despite the fact that I drink more riesling. At the top end, chardonnays can develop amazing complexity. But then so to can great German rieslings. Similarly, I have no preference for shiraz or cabernet - there's a place for all varieties for my palate. Although the "sameness" of lower end chardonnay and warm climate shiraz from Australia does tend to bore me.

Yes I agree Danny, but for my palate there seems to be more excitement out there from Cabernet based wines than Shiraz, however if someone asks whether I would like a Cabernet or Shiraz, more information is obviously needed to make a decision, as, as you say, one grape is not better or worse than another.

Adair

Adair wrote:

Maximus wrote:Versatile? How so Linc, besides oaked or unoaked?

I'm getting very, very sick and tired of the heavily oaked chardies out there. The wood overshadows the fruit and they become a drink, not a wine to be enjoyed and savoured. There. I've had my dummy spit.

Riesling on the other hand, despite not having oak treatment, is really versatile. Bone dry Clare, off-dry, mediums and sweets from NZ and Germany, luscious riesling of Alsace... there is a real diversity of styles, more so than chardonnay IMO.

There is a world of Chardonnay besides oaked or heavily oaked versions. Some quick Chardonnay related thoughts that I think show more versatility than Riesling are.

* The great grape of Champagne
* Bone dry, high acid with no oak and immense aging potential, such Chablis - similar to Australian dry Riesling if you like
* Dry, unwooded and ripe and typically cheap - similar to Sauv Blanc or cheaper Rieslings if you like (Note: I rarely drink either)
* The odd great sweet wine from Chardonnay can be found - take the 2005 Herzog - although I agree not largely a common use for the grape but there are other examples.
* Wooded in various oak types and lengths of time to create different wines - the better ones still have serious aging potential.
* Going through malolactic or not to create a different types of wine.
* Able to be grown in massively different climates.

Agree that there is real comparison for Chardonnay for off-sweet Riesling but there needs to be something that Riesling can do that Chardonnay can not!

Adair

Yeah, what he said!
There is also yeast choices too.

Disagree that Chardonany is the king of white grapes, but more on the original topic, I also disagree that there is anything inherently "wrong" with Chardonnay.

Plenty of it is pretty bad, but there are also bad wines made from all the other grapes.

camw wrote:Disagree that Chardonany is the king of white grapes, but more on the original topic, I also disagree that there is anything inherently "wrong" with Chardonnay.

Plenty of it is pretty bad, but there are also bad wines made from all the other grapes.

Come on Cam. Throw your hat in the ring. Which white grape is your King?
Adair

In my opinion I don’t think that Chardonnay is betteror worse than the other white variety. I think that in some cases the winemakers made the chardonnay look like red wine (more structure, oily, noticeable tannins ….).
Some wine lovers don’t like that kind of style, and they believe "if I want to drink red, I prefer red, not white that look like a red one". For myself there is a room for every style, for a hot summer day I prefer a cold, light structure, good acid no oak chardonnay , with a good meal, I will choose the more heavy oily style atc, and there is psychological reason, when you don’t like chardonnay it is a point of attribution to what you like. You need to put your taste on a scale, and that way people don’t like Chardonnay or some times merlot.

Adair wrote:

camw wrote:Disagree that Chardonany is the king of white grapes, but more on the original topic, I also disagree that there is anything inherently "wrong" with Chardonnay.

Plenty of it is pretty bad, but there are also bad wines made from all the other grapes.

Come on Cam. Throw your hat in the ring. Which white grape is your King?
Adair

For me personally - Riesling.

What's wrong with Chardonnay?

That's an easy one ... it's not RED.