The Auswine Forum

Another thread prompts me to ask this question:

With most recent vintages of Grange being cheaper on the secondary market why would you buy it on release ?

Especially with the latest release they are looking at around $600 a bottle for it - historically the value will decrease over the course of the year !!

Wont buy it on release

Wont buy it on the secondary market

Just plain wont buy it

Mark,

If I ever did get the urge to buy another vinatge of Grange (maybe the 2002 and probably the 2004), then I would probably try to source it off auction, as you suggest, or source it from overseas (US, UK, etc) where the prices are more than half of thoses which can be found in Australia.

You could (almost) buy 2 bottles of 96 to every one 2000 ATM

In a word - no.

I thought the 1998 was too much three years ago (even at $350 ex CD), so there's absolutely no chance I'd consider this.

There's an interesting side issue here though - the final price of the en primeur 2004 Special Bins 60A and Block 42.

At the time there was a lot of speculation of the release price being anywhere between $350-$600+. I think the general consensus thought it would be the same price as Grange, but that was before this latest potentially huge hike.

Now it's being speculated that the 2001 Grange will be released for $600+, exactly what will the Special Bins final price be in 2007?

I think there will be quite a few people who will be seriously reconsidering whether these will be worth that sort of money, no matter how good they are.

Cheers,
Ian

my last Grange was the 96 which I paid NZ NZ$260 for

i also bought the 96 Kalimna Block 42 for NZ$150

Its all academic now, not interested. St Henri is the only Penfolds wine which attracts my consideration nowdays.

Seriously when it comes to palate what is the difference between a $100 wine and a $600 wine??

think about it, you could buy a case (yes a whole dozen) bottles of something like 2000 O'shea, hill of grace, etc for the going price of ONE bottle of wine...... and that one bottle would barely make it around the table of a good dinner party?? but then if you were drinking grange you wouldnt be able to afford to eat.

is it really worth spending all that hard earned cash just for a name?? my answer .... no.. but i suppose some like the idea of being able to say "i drink grange".... but i get to say.... "i have a full stomach of solids and liquid and im a happy chappy with money to do it again tomorrow night"

Hey woodwardbrett,

Where are you buying HOG for $50 or $100 for that matter . I do however agree with you. Grange was getting overpriced when it $100 and the likes of HOG was $50 it is now just crazy and will not be getting any of my hard earned. If anyone else has any that needs drinking I am always available though

Glen

woodwardbrett wrote:Seriously when it comes to palate what is the difference between a $100 wine and a $600 wine??

It is about how much you are willing to spend. There are wines that cost $150+ that I will buy and drink and believe the experience warrants the cost, there are other people with more disposable wealth that would pay 10 times that or drink $150 wines with a meal each night - Its all about perspective, its not about cost at all

whoa my bad.... i didnt realise HOG was so expensive $350 +.....

anyway on my uni student budget i will be steering clear of those pocket burners.

i must say by the way... off topic but the bottle of 1996 Lovedale Semillon i drank last nite was awesome.

any of you guys drank this lately? comments??

Very interesting this. Penfolds has lately been saying that the maret drives the price of Grange and I really can't see too many people paying $600 for the 01 or, to be honest, even the 02 - even the speculators. At $400 you could be guaranteed the 02 would quickly go up to $600 so you might be able to make a quick buck but I can't even see too many investors buying at $600. Doesn't make sense from an investment point of view when the secondary market is well under $400 for most Granges these days.

I certainly wouldn't pay $600 for it and I did buy one bottle of the 98 at $400. I let the special bin wines go for the same reason. I wanted one of each but in the end, I really just couldn't justify the price. I'll probably try to get some when things settle down on the secondary market or I might just let it go. I've got lots of other wine, including a dozen 1990 Grange bought at the more sensible price of $120 a bottle just before things went crazy.

woodwardbrett wrote:is it really worth spending all that hard earned cash just for a name?? my answer .... no.. but i suppose some like the idea of being able to say "i drink grange".... but i get to say.... "i have a full stomach of solids and liquid and im a happy chappy with money to do it again tomorrow night"

I would say it is more than just a "name".

Quite frankly, how many other wines from around the world can you drink at 30-40 years of age and be blown away by? The question then becomes: is that experinece worth $500+ for you? For many, it is.

good point on the age of the wine.... you would want to have your fingers crossed that the cork isnt shot... on that note has anyone heard anything about movement to screwcaps for grange alike (this may have been talked about b4 but i havent heard anything) ??? i would be much more willing to buy a bottle of grange for x $$ if it was in screwcap

n4sir wrote:In a word - no.

I thought the 1998 was too much three years ago (even at $350 ex CD), so there's absolutely no chance I'd consider this.

There's an interesting side issue here though - the final price of the en primeur 2004 Special Bins 60A and Block 42.

At the time there was a lot of speculation of the release price being anywhere between $350-$600+. I think the general consensus thought it would be the same price as Grange, but that was before this latest potentially huge hike.

Now it's being speculated that the 2001 Grange will be released for $600+, exactly what will the Special Bins final price be in 2007?

I think there will be quite a few people who will be seriously reconsidering whether these will be worth that sort of money, no matter how good they are.

Cheers,
Ian

Another interesting side issue to your side issue is, if I'm not very much mistaken, I believe that Beringer Blass/Fosters Beverages takes the reins of Southcorp/Penfolds at the beginning of April, so will all these pricing decisions fall into their lap or are they already pre-determined. One might think that after they have a real close look at the bottom line, we might see some very interesting marketing moves.

there is only one word for the merge of fosters/southcorp - SCARY!!

Craig(NZ) wrote:Its all academic now, not interested. St Henri is the only Penfolds wine which attracts my consideration nowdays.

You may have second thoughts about this one too in a few months time Craig...

Penfolds has pushed the profile of St. Henri hard over in the US (and through ROP 5), and in a recent article (there's a link somewhere here, where Peter Gago demonstrated a vertical to a US writer) the expected RRP for the 2002 will be US$50.00.

If that's the case I doubt we'll see much of the 2002 here, and what there is of it will be pricey.

Cheers,
Ian

$500 for one of the best Granges ever is ok for me as a very special rare occasion. I would not spend it on an everage Grange though even though Grange is Grange.
It is unfortionate that the cost has more than tripled in the last 10 years, but to be fair I am sure that its not just all the popularity thats seen it rise. It cannot be the cheapest wine to make. Perfectly managed grapes from great Viticulturilsts, from premium sites within premium regions is not cheap. The quility oak is not cheap. The winemakers wages would have doubled in the last 10-15 years as has most people who can afford to buy a bottle. Rates on the vineyards would have doubled easy in this time also. Not saying they arent making a good $ out of it, I suppose at the end of the day its a business.

Would I buy on Release at Aussie prices? no ... at UK prices "maybe". UK release price is normally 110-120GBP which is about 250-300AUD, via Majestic or Tescos (move fast though!). I have 1990 and 1998 and it's still possible to get 1996 cheap.

I think the true answer that I buy it is simply "I only live once". There's no justification for it. It's like hiring a Ferrari for a track day. If I'm short on cash it'll have to go to auction, and I won't cry a single tear, it's just wine. But I bought it to drink, not for profit.

Now why does this price difference happen?? Not just WET as NZ does not have than. Not GST as UK has VAT at 17.5%. Something wrong here ... anyone else agree.

Baby Chickpea wrote:
Quite frankly, how many other wines from around the world can you drink at 30-40 years of age and be blown away by? The question then becomes: is that experinece worth $500+ for you? For many, it is.

Well, having had several Grange from the 70s (74 and 78) just recently and been "blown away" by how over the hill they were (and they were from excellent cellars according to the rules laid down by the experts) I would have to say that you would want to be very cautious which vintage you bought and then laid down for 30 to 40 years.

In fact I have had several Grange from the 80s that were showing poorly and several from the 90s which were showing poorly at release.

The price asked for the stuff at release never seems to reflect the vintage though, does it?

I have not bought grange myself since the early 80s when it was still around $15 a bottle and xs stock was sitting on the shelves of outlets everywhere, despite the name it had even then.

Having tasted Grange just a few times.....I just cannot see the point in spending that sort of money. Is the best vintage of Grange really 5-6 times better than the best $100.00 wine from the same region and vintage?

I would suggest that it is better to have a 6 pack of a wine that is arguably, nearly or just as good. This wine can then be enjoyed over 6 evenings, than just one bottle of Grange that I have enjoyed over one.

Regards

Finney (Craig)

<snip>
Now why does this price difference happen?? Not just WET as NZ does not have than. Not GST as UK has VAT at 17.5%. Something wrong here ... anyone else agree.
<snip>


I agree and another fine example would be the price of diesel in Australia. I know that most of us don't drink diesel, but when I first bought my diesel vehicle, diesel fuel was approx 10% cheaper than std petrol. Now on a bad day it can be about 30% dearer, yet when I last travelled to Euro, diesel was 20-30% cheaper than petrol. What was it statement ringing in my ears..........."With GST, diesel will be cheaper"....yeah right.

The way it is going, it is a shame cars don't run on cask wine!

Regards

Finney (Craig)

I have not bought any penfolds for a whiles. The price is just simply stupid. At $600 a bottle, I'd rather buy 1st growth Brodeaux or a grand Cru burgundy any day.

Penfolds wines are made by scientists with formula or at least it tastes like that anyway. More I drink Bordeaux and burgundy, the more I shy away from the Australian big reds.

Finney wrote:<snip>
Now why does this price difference happen?? Not just WET as NZ does not have than. Not GST as UK has VAT at 17.5%. Something wrong here ... anyone else agree.
<snip>

Craig,

Grange is more expensive in Oz than anywhere else; why? Cause SC could get away with it. Bin 389 is (almost) the same price as Bin 128 in the US.

TORB wrote:Bin 389 is (almost) the same price as Bin 128 in the US.

For that matter I really don't know why Bin 407 is priced above 28, 128 and 138 either.

When it was first released with the 1990 vintage, Cabernet grapes were still fetching premium prices to justify the difference. Now there's an absolute glut of good quality Cabernet (that despite being cheaply priced still doesn't sell).

Now Fosters are running the show they should take a serious look at these pricing abnormalities. It may be one of the (very few) positive things to come out of the takeover.

Cheers,
Ian

Have never purchased Grange on release, The odd bottle on the secondary market for special family birthdays etc.

As for current prices the wine is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it, not a cent more or less. Evidently that excludes most of us on this forum.

LL

Davo wrote:
Well, having had several Grange from the 70s (74 and 78) just recently and been "blown away" by how over the hill they were (and they were from excellent cellars according to the rules laid down by the experts) I would have to say that you would want to be very cautious which vintage you bought and then laid down for 30 to 40 years.

In fact I have had several Grange from the 80s that were showing poorly and several from the 90s which were showing poorly at release.

Well, davo, you are either unlucky or even have higher standards than me! the 74 is one of worst ever (with 73) but the 3 bottles of 78 I have had in last 2 years have all been superlative. Must say never had any "show[ing] poorly" either from 80s or 90s. I think you just don't like Grange! That's OK, just send them over to me....

When the 98 Grange was released I said to myself that it is too expensive but my mate convinced me to buy 3 bottles at a special price of $340 on release.

I have stop buying all Penfolds wine after the 98 vintage. Now keeping and eye on the 1st growth Brodeaux in the secondary market. There are still plenty of good buy out there in the secondary market.

Cheers,

Alan

markg wrote:
With most recent vintages of Grange being cheaper on the secondary market why would you buy it on release ?

good point... i'm told from learned source that they are back to usual supply , so you are right about the secondary market.

wonder if 02' will be the same... year we got married, and i'm still paying for it (with all the 2002 wines ive bought/buying!)

c

PS: no purchase on release for moi

The last Grange I bought on release was the 1985. I can think of only two reasons to buy Grange on release:
1. You think it is a good investment. I think that is highly optimistic but hey I've been wrong before.
2. You are seriously wealthy and you like wine and can't think of anything more sensible to do with the money.

I would have to agree about the 1974 Grange, it was average. Though I did drink it out of a plastic glass standing around a BBQ the night before I got married, so the conditions probably weren't ideal!

Personally I'd prefer to take a punt on a dozen of John Duval's Entity than one bottle of Grange. Here's the guy who made the stuff for 15 years, is no doubt taking extra special care over his new wine as it's under his name, and has apparently got access to some great grapes.