The Auswine Forum

Hi to all & Merry everything,

I've posted this elsewhere, but I figure there's not many people around so what the hey!

I've just been perusing ebob & had a look at one of his articles in the Hedonists Gazette section, where he rates a wine at (84?) points which he states has a hint of TCA, but he scores it anyway. I'm sorry but if I detect TCA in anyway, I reject the bottle & go looking for something else. Do any of you ever persist with a corked bottle, or better still does anyone ever drink TCA affected wine hoping for some enjoyment, I don't get it! Here's the quote:

"I have had better bottles of the 1998 Maucoil Privilege as the one I served at this dinner was tannic and hard with a hint of TCA as well as suppressed fruit."

Of course the fruits going to be suppressed if it's corked!

I guess my question is how does a corked wine receive (84?) points from the world's leading wine guru & has he lost the plot?

lantana

Very weird, most wine reviewers will not give a score/rating/TN for a wine that is obviously faulty with TCA.

TCA never blows off, so I never persist with a wine once I've detected the dreaded odour/effect. Last night a bottle of Billecart-Salmon NV was used to water the lawn at a friend's place as it was moderately corked and quite unpleasant. I'd normally save it and try to get a refund, but it was the old label bought quite a while ago and I didn't think I could find a receipt, so my chances of getting a replacement were pretty slim.

BTW, today I bought a cheap but quite functional, made in China DVD player for about the same price as the Billecart NV, makes you think a bit about value for money.

Very, very weird because of the 25 CndP wines served (all from RJP Jr's cellar) three are noted as being corked - and not scored!! Either RJP is confused about the relationship about TCA and the term "corked", or he can tell the difference between cork taint and taint from elsewhere - and only cork taint is not to be scored???

Mike

lantana wrote:

"I have had better bottles of the 1998 Maucoil Privilege as the one I served at this dinner was tannic and hard with a hint of TCA as well as suppressed fruit."

Of course the fruits going to be suppressed if it's corked!

I guess my question is how does a corked wine receive (84?) points from the world's leading wine guru & has he lost the plot?

lantana

I honestly don't see the problem.

(1) He's obviously tasted the wine previously on several ocassions so he knows what it should be like so the fact there is a "hint" of TCA doesn not necesarily make it undrinkable (I know many winemakers and professionals who also subscribe to this view);

(2) Suppression of fruit is not exclusively caused by TCA alone. Just one of its symptoms, and according to "Making Good Wine: A Manual of Winemaking Practice for Australia and New Zealand" by Bryce Rankine there can be myriad reasons like randox, poor winemaking, bacterial infestation/spoilage, heat damage etc.

Danny, the problem is that one of the first signs of TCA spoilage, even before you can detect TCA in the wine, is the loss of fruit on the nose and the palate. If the nose is flat and the palate is lacking fruit and has a short finish TCA should be suspected, among other faults.

However if you can detect TCA on the nose &/or palate then the fruit is definitely going to be suppressed.

If that quote is correct then I am seriously beginning to consider that he has dementia, especially after his acidity comments on the Penfolds range.

Another in along line of RPjnr's massive slips.

I am sure you are all aware of his shot at Brian Croser picking pre ripeness, and then adding acid....why would you add acid to a wine that if picked pre ripeness is full of it anyway - the man continues to shoot himself so regularly in the foot a wheelchair is in order (not to mention that moron Squires who runs his 'chat' read wank room!!!).

Baby Chickpea wrote:(1) He's obviously tasted the wine previously on several ocassions so he knows what it should be like so the fact there is a "hint" of TCA doesn not necesarily make it undrinkable (I know many winemakers and professionals who also subscribe to this view);

Then he should either refer back to his previous tastings or re-taste another bottle

It's like trying to taste a wine with a boiled sweet in your mouth. Yes you could make a stab at a rating & note, but you're trying to allow for a contamination of unknown impact. A silly mistake yes, which you'd hope he'd recognise in hindsight. It sounds like this is still a rare occurance (him rating corked wines), so maybe it's more of a heat of the moment slip than incompetance which I feel would be unfair comment.

regards

Ian

Ian - what do you make of RP jnr's accusation of Croser that he picks unripe & then adds acid - makes no sense & sounds like an angry man defending himself with the indefensible? he is trained as a Lawyer right?

Crow

I agree with you. Why score a wine that is corked, seems stupid

but in the end who cares, lemmings follow points

So true - however when a critic slams a reputable winery because he has been circumvented (Mount Mary, Petaluma etc) and attempts to discredit sections of the industry, media included, he has no time for personally, it becomes abuse & slander...

When a critic slams a reputable winery a couple of things happen:

1. The price of a reputable wine remains stable
2. The availability of the reputable wine remains stable

It means you can pick up your favourite wine easily (without kissing any arse) and at a good price. Dont know what else one needs.

Why should we care that a wine "critic" dislikes a wine or winery?

People have too much time on their hands if "Care Factor" peaks above zero on this one

Still we take time to dialogue about it all.....too much time?

Cheers mate, happy New Year to you and all in the land of the long white cloud - beautiful place, must return soon.

The "worst" ive ever seen this forum is "why critic x or y rated wine x or y, x or y points.

I actually really respect most people on here in that they are generally led by their own palates. They are free and forward to express their opinion but I dont feel they hold it as an "absolute".

I know I have a few differing opinions to a few on here on a few wines but hey that is life, wine is subjuective to a certain extent

Also in the end many of us get stubborn and the attitude becomes "f off, I dont care, I know what I like, I know why I like it, thats what I buy, I enjoy it with my mates and you are welcome to your opinion but I just dont care."

I dont think it is a lack of respect, I think it is a bit of "self realisation" and arriving at a happy place in the world of wine.

As for sparkling shiraz?? That is so xmas xmas is over so I reckon you should settle back in the sun to a nice bottle of Jackson Estate Sauvignon Blanc with a nice piece of freshly caught snapper and a crisp green salad. Make sure you pour a big cool glass for the aussie red bigots [dig dig RB and TORB]

C.

Craig(NZ) wrote:As for sparkling shiraz?? That is so xmas xmas is over so I reckon you should settle back in the sun to a nice bottle of Jackson Estate Sauvignon Blanc with a nice piece of freshly caught snapper and a crisp green salad. Make sure you pour a big cool glass for the aussie red bigots [dig dig RB and TORB]

C.

Craig, a perfect example to support your argument, to you FRSS is an Xmas drink, to a lot of others (in Oz anyway) it's a warm weather and/or all-year-round celebration drink. I've been drinking some nearly every day since pre-Christmas and I'll certainly be drinking some tonight in the lead-up to New Year. I think Ric has had his annual bottle of SB for 2005, so maybe he can get it over with early in 2006.

Happy New Year!

Hi Brian,

Agree totally; I went out and bought 7 bottles of Seppelts Original 2002 on 11 December and when I ran out, I topped up with another six pack; (plus a dozen for the cellar but with this hot weather, it may not make it as far as the cellar.

Nicki is coming over tonight so it will be my last bottle of the old label Billy Goat Frog Bubbles, and a bottle of something red to drink with the main course which is cheese, bread and fruit which should be perfect after a hot day.

The good FRS is kept for drinking when I want to appreciate it, not just as a quaffer.

Craig, a perfect example to support your argument, to you FRSS is an Xmas drink, to a lot of others (in Oz anyway) it's a warm weather and/or all-year-round celebration drink. I've been drinking some nearly every day since pre-Christmas and I'll certainly be drinking some tonight in the lead-up to New Year. I think Ric has had his annual bottle of SB for 2005, so maybe he can get it over with early in 2006.

yeah im only pulling your leg

truth be known i havent got any sauvignon blancs at the mo, but i do have a bottle of seppelts sparkling shiraz in the fridge. might even drink it tonight

[/quote]

Have you tried the Yarrabank sparkler - it is white blokes so may not be on your radar - but is a top drop IMHO (in my humble opinion).

Best red this year - 03 Kalleske Grenache, other memorable moments, 98 Tintara Shiraz, Clarendon Hills Hickonbotham, 98 Old Block, 95 Black Pepper, 96 Hill of Grace, 02 Basket Press.

Dissapointments, Plexus, Zonte's Shiraz V.

Craig - can you locate any Le Sol - none in Australia it seems!!

Cheers, Crow. Tonights wine selection attached...Have a great year guys.

Wines for NYE 2005

Penfolds Bin 389 Cab Sauv/shiraz 1994
Wynns Michael Shiraz 1994
Charles Cimicky Signataire Shiraz 1996
Parker First Growth Cab. Sauv 1996
Peter Lehman Stonewell Shiraz 1997
Charles Cimicky Reserve Shiraz 1998
Coldstream Hills Limited Release Shiraz 1998
Elderton Command Shiraz 1998
Irvine Grand Merlot 1998
Penfolds Bin 389 Cab Sauv/shiraz 1998
Rockford Basket Press Shiraz 1998
Rosemount Balmoral Shiraz 1998
Digger's Bluff Watchdog Shiraz Cabernet 1999
Katnook Odyssey Cabernet Sauvignon 1999
St Hallet Old Block Shiraz 1999
Tatachilla Foundation Shiraz 1999
McWilliam's Mt. Pleasant Maurice O'Shea Shiraz 2000
Mount Langi Ghiran Shiraz 2000
Bowen Cab. Sauv 2001
Cape Mentelle Cabernet Sauvignon 2001
D'Arenderg Dead Arm Shiraz 2001
Mount Mary Yarra Valley Quintet 2001
Rockford Basket Press Shiraz 2001
The Willows The Bonesetter Shiraz 2001

Kalleske Greenock Shiraz 2004
Turkey Flat Shiraz 2002
Kalleske Greenock Shiraz 2004
Abercorn A Reserve Shiraz 2001
Abercorn A Reserve ShirazCabernet 2001
Angus Wines Shiraz 2001
Bethany Cab. Merlot 1998
Brokenwood Cab/Sauv Merlot 2001
Chalice Bridge Cab Shiraz 2003
Crabtree Shiraz 1999
Five Geese Grenache Shiraz 2003
Jeanerette Shiraz 2000
Longview Yakka Shiraz 2003
Murray St Shiraz 2001
Murray St Shiraz 2002
Murray St Cab. Sauv 2002
Murray St Shiraz Cabernet 2002
Murray St Shiraz 2003
Pertaringa Undercover Shiraz 2001
Seppelt Victorian Shiraz 2002
Serafino Shiraz 2000
Taylors Cab. Sauv 2001
Taylors Cab. Sauv 2003
Taylors Shiraz ?
Zonte's Footstep Shiraz Viogner 2003
Elderton Cab. Sauv 1998
Elderton Cab. Sauv 1999
Kabminye Barossa Shiraz 2001
Kabminye Barossa Shiraz 2002
Occam's Razor Shiraz 2003
Red Nectar Shiraz 2004
Rochford Yarra Valley Cab. Sauv 2001
Scarpantoni McLaren Vale Cab. Sauv 1998
Schild Shiraz 2002
Skillagolee Shiraz 1998
Thorn Clarke Shotfire Ridge Shiraz 2002

I wouldn't want to have your head on NY day!

Is this what you are selecting from or what a bunch of you are drinking?

Is a selection from my cellar we will open as we go - the top ones being the 'premiums' the bottom ones being pretty darn good anyway.

We have plenty of folk coming under instruction not to bring red...so I will have some help. I need to make some room in the cellar.

Crow,

Have you had the Skillogalee Shiraz lately, and if so how is it travelling? You can pick it up as a cleanskin at the moment.

Happy New Year Everyone,

Scott

Crow wrote:Ian - what do you make of RP jnr's accusation of Croser that he picks unripe & then adds acid - makes no sense & sounds like an angry man defending himself with the indefensible? he is trained as a Lawyer right?

It seems a(nother) silly comment to my mind & if I was Croser I might me tempted to challenge RP to provide a little evidence for his statement.

It comes across as a media personality comment, rather than that of a thoughtful wine critic. It almost comes across as if he's been personally affronted by Croser and feels the need to strike back, which quite frankly I'm not interested in.

Ian

Agree entirely, what an error to make though. He also panned Penfolds last year for doing the same thing - making scientifically formulated wines, loaded with added acid - and this year it seems an entire turn around & the 00 Grange, which all but James Halliday seemed to discount as unworthy of the label, RP liked - maybe they do share some views after all (in fact I am sure they do). Pity we don't spend more time sharing the views we agree on than those we don't!!

Cheers, Adam.

Crow wrote: Pity we don't spend more time sharing the views we agree on than those we don't!!

Cheers, Adam.

Wise words

To get back to the original post - - the 'Hedonist Gazette' is considered a more informal view of wines. It's Parkers take on wines during dinners, themed tasting, etc. That is, Parker specifically notes that these are just snapshots, not to be mistaken for 'official' Wine Advocate notes. It doesn't follow the more formal Wine Advocate procedures, when Parker will rate the wine with peers over a few days.

So I don't think the 'holier than thou' posts ripping into Parker are quite fair on this occasion.

Arpy certainly got stuck into Mount Mary with a similar diatribe in the Advocate, whoever you may be in the land of the Maple leaf....

Adam.

JDSJDS wrote:To get back to the original post - - the 'Hedonist Gazette' is considered a more informal view of wines. It's Parkers take on wines during dinners, themed tasting, etc. That is, Parker specifically notes that these are just snapshots, not to be mistaken for 'official' Wine Advocate notes. It doesn't follow the more formal Wine Advocate procedures, when Parker will rate the wine with peers over a few days..

Hmmm???

Whether formal or informal this respected palate should have known better than to bother passing comment on the nose and flavour profile of a wine that he has already picked as corked.

JDSJDS wrote:So I don't think the 'holier than thou' posts ripping into Parker are quite fair on this occasion.

Holier than thou????

So any comment seen as being negative to the one and only BOB is now seen as blasphemy???

Oh really

JDSJDS wrote:To get back to the original post - - the 'Hedonist Gazette' is considered a more informal view of wines. It's Parkers take on wines during dinners, themed tasting, etc. That is, Parker specifically notes that these are just snapshots, not to be mistaken for 'official' Wine Advocate notes. It doesn't follow the more formal Wine Advocate procedures, when Parker will rate the wine with peers over a few days.

So I don't think the 'holier than thou' posts ripping into Parker are quite fair on this occasion.

Thanks for getting this thread back on track, although I'm not sure that much more can be added, apart from the fact that some people think there is value in scoring a corked wine & I don't, absolutely no value at all, ever!

I am aware of the RPJ disclaimer in regard to Hedonist's Gazette, I just didn't think it mattered where he wrote it, what is the point of rating a corked wine, ever? IMHO (just so I don't appear 'holier than thou' ), the only appropriate comment in that situation would be, oh bugger it's corked, you'll have to wait till the next time I taste this wine for an evaluation.

lantana

It's just that Parker-bashing is almost too easy now... The Internet seems so rife with it (other than the ebob site, which I agree is really sycophantic), and now the attacks seem increasingly strident and narrow. Surely he can still be attacked on the big issues, like his monolithic taste, and his effect on the homogenization (globalization) of wine styles that suit his palate!!!

I agree that scoring a wine you feel to be tainted is somewhat bizarre, but I also admit I've occasionally noted something like, "I think this was slightly corked, but some nice x and y flavours were poking out, and it was still a reasonable wine". I look at corked wines as a continuum rather than an absolute 'corked' or 'not corked' proposition. We've probably all commented on a wine that was corked very slightly, but we didn't realize it!

Also, many other critics have done the same thing, with Laube from the WS perhaps most famously doing it in last year's tasting of several California cabernets (e.g., Montenela). But they don't recieve the same wrath. I guess it just highlights the primary position Parker occupies right now, for good or ill.

Having said all that, you certainly have the right to complain if you don't like any mention of corked wines! I just didn't see it as much of a transgression (as long as the taint is acknowledged).

JDSJDS wrote:It's just that Parker-bashing is almost too easy now... The Internet seems so rife with it (other than the ebob site, which I agree is really sycophantic), and now the attacks seem increasingly strident and narrow. Surely he can still be attacked on the big issues, like his monolithic taste, and his effect on the homogenization (globalization) of wine styles that suit his palate!!!

I agree that scoring a wine you feel to be tainted is somewhat bizarre, but I also admit I've occasionally noted something like, "I think this was slightly corked, but some nice x and y flavours were poking out, and it was still a reasonable wine". I look at corked wines as a continuum rather than an absolute 'corked' or 'not corked' proposition. We've probably all commented on a wine that was corked very slightly, but we didn't realize it!

Also, many other critics have done the same thing, with Laube from the WS perhaps most famously doing it in last year's tasting of several California cabernets (e.g., Montenela). But they don't recieve the same wrath. I guess it just highlights the primary position Parker occupies right now, for good or ill.

Having said all that, you certainly have the right to complain if you don't like any mention of corked wines! I just didn't see it as much of a transgression (as long as the taint is acknowledged).

My point exactly - I even remember Halliday about 12 months ago saying (paraphrasing from memory) "this had very low level taint but quality was still evident" etc etc.

JDSJDS wrote:I agree that scoring a wine you feel to be tainted is somewhat bizarre, but I also admit I've occasionally noted something like, "I think this was slightly corked, but some nice x and y flavours were poking out, and it was still a reasonable wine". I look at corked wines as a continuum rather than an absolute 'corked' or 'not corked' proposition. We've probably all commented on a wine that was corked very slightly, but we didn't realize it!

Hmmm, I guess all I can say in response is to repeat myself, some people think there is value in scoring a corked wine & I don't, c'est la vie. Is it very cold in your part of the world at the moment?

Cheers lantana