Page 1 of 2
Favourite Pinot Noir
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:04 am
by grahamg
Only been into wine a couple of years, had a few amazing glasses of Pinot Noir here and there. Ok, so now I want to explore this stuff properly.
What is your favourite Pinot Noir? Why? Price range?
What should I drink to get a good idea of what Australia has to offer?
I'm mainly thinking about the medium to full bodied red stuff here, not white or sparkling.
Just got some Port Phillip Estate 2003, Stonier Reserve 2003, is this a good start?
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:31 pm
by Adair
The 2001 Bass Phillip Premiun is the best Australian and New World Pinot Noir I had. However, note that there are vintage variations with Bass Phillip, as you would expect from a Pinot Noir producer butr some people overlook this due to the reputation. Bindi can also be great.
You might want to have a look at this discussion:
http://forum.auswine.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=3676
In it, I wrote the following which you may or may not find of interest. Others also expressed their opinions:
For me, the majority of the "best" New World Pinot Noir is in the dry red style (dark, rich, ripe, powerful and quite obvious), as opposed to Burgundy/Pinot Noir style (powerful but fragrant, lively, complex, elegant, ripe but not dark) so I typically prefer Shiraz instead as it is typically more powerful, darker and richer at the same price.
However, there are a few New World producers of Pinot Noir that I thoroughly enjoy, especially Bass Phillip and Bindi, and Bell Hill (NZ) (only tasted one but am impressed), then the odd vintages of a few others, one obviously being Stonier. I have not had a Giaconda, and I liked the mindset behind a Main Ridge tasted earlier this year.
I would love to add more producers to my list but I do not go out looking for them anymore as, at the prices that top New World "dry red" Pinot Noir is being sold at, there seems to be value in "real" Burgundy.
Then there are the New World Pinot Noir producers who try to pass off their wine as Burgundian in style, but do so only because their fruit is simply not ripe.
Kind regards,
Adair
Re: Favourite Pinot Noir
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:34 pm
by Adair
grahamg wrote:Only been into wine a couple of years, had a few amazing glasses of Pinot Noir here and there. Ok, so now I want to explore this stuff properly.
What is your favourite Pinot Noir? Why? Price range?
What should I drink to get a good idea of what Australia has to offer?
I'm mainly thinking about the medium to full bodied red stuff here, not white or sparkling.
Just got some Port Phillip Estate 2003, Stonier Reserve 2003, is this a good start?
Answering one of your questions more directly:
What should I drink to get a good idea of what Australia has to offer? Start at the 2000/1/2/3/4 Coldstream Hills or 2004 Hoddles Creek at less than $20 in some places. These are more in the riper style but are excellent wines with varietal character.
Adair
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:56 pm
by Davo
gg, Welcome to the worlds most thrilling time waste. The hunt for enjoyable pinot at a price you are willing to pay.
The biggest problem with this search is that the wine is so unreliable from vintage to vintage that while you may find a terrific vfm pn one year it will be terrible for the next 10. Maybe not so bad but you get the picture.
The second problem is that price seems to have little bearing on quality. While you may get absolute rippers for a fortune you can also get some absolute crap.
Add to this the personal likes and dislikes of individuals for various flavour profiles and styles and the hunt becomes even harder.
Finding good quality pn at any price is a turkey shoot, just even moreso at the cheaper end of town.
Have fun trying though.
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:02 pm
by Adair
I don't believe it is a waste of time once you get a certain level of understanding. Then the quest can be truly rewarding, although, yes, many times expensive. Burgundy is only a mindfield if you don't have the right map. Unfortunately, getting the right map does take some time and learning, and luckily there are people around here that are willing to share what they have learnt.
Adair
PS. Oh, and the Port Phillip Estate 2003 and Stonier Reserve 2003 are sensational places to start!!!
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:10 pm
by mphatic
Try the Paringa 2002 Estate Pinot. Exceptional wine. Has great balance between the ripe/powerful fruit and compost/earthy aromas. The 2003 Reserve wine (quite a bit more expensive) is also a beauty, but less fruity, more earthy, and more in the Burgundian style. Furthermore, the Curlewis 2002 Reserve is similar in style to the Paringa, and an excellent alternative to the bigger labels.
Re: Favourite Pinot Noir
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:53 pm
by Max
Adair wrote:Answering one of your questions more directly:
What should I drink to get a good idea of what Australia has to offer? Start at the 2000/1/2/3/4 Coldstream Hills or 2004 Hoddles Creek at less than $20 in some places. These are more in the riper style but are excellent wines with varietal character.
Adair
Hear hear on the Hoddles Creek - a superb wine! Another good value pinot I've really enjoyed is the Sticks pinot noir from the Yarra Valley with a RRP of $18. Sensational.
Plantaganet's Omrah pinot noir 2004 is out soon/now and is priced fairly reasonably for pinot but its off the very acidic, rhubarb style (I thought the bottle was stuffed as it tasted different to the sample I tried a few months earlier) and not my cup of tea. If you like rhubarb though, you'll be set!
Another pinot I've had recently is the d'Arenberg Feral Fox. The best way to describe this wine is pinot on steroids. All the earthy and raspberry flavours are there, but in fairly "big" amounts as well as considerable tannin. Not sure if it's a good varietal example that would sit well with purists, but reckon it's bloody delicious.. especially with a host of Chinese BBQ meats for food!
cheers
Max
Re: Favourite Pinot Noir
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:45 pm
by Lincoln
Max wrote:Another pinot I've had recently is the d'Arenberg Feral Fox. The best way to describe this wine is pinot on steroids. All the earthy and raspberry flavours are there, but in fairly "big" amounts as well as considerable tannin. Not sure if it's a good varietal example that would sit well with purists, but reckon it's bloody delicious.. especially with a host of Chinese BBQ meats for food!
I've had this one too - very much dry red style, no pinosity at all, and a cheeky "Chambertin" rip-off label...
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:25 pm
by roughred
Australian pinot is certainly a hard one to pin down varietally. Bindi, Bannockburn, and Ashton Hills have all impressed me at times, Giaconda slightly less so. None of them are any comparison to great Burgundy, nor should they have to be, they are great wines in their own right.
Of new world regions I think Martinborough is head and shoulders above any other region for consistency and quality, a small region that carries a very big stick. Palliser, Martinborough Vineyards, Dry River, Ata Rangi, Te Kairanga, Kupe et al are all welcome in my linen cupboard anytime. I find more structure, texture and nuance in the Martinborough wines. To me the majority of South Island pinots (with some very notable exceptions) seem to be more about plush ripe fruit and winemaking trickery than subtlety and structure.
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:47 pm
by Sean
deleted
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:05 pm
by Lincoln
Sean wrote:Yes Graham, unfortunately you will get a few amazing glasses here and there. So obviously you understand that, and the rest of it is just good fun...
So far this year my favorites (under $25) have been the 2003 Diamond Valley Blue Label, 2003 Curlewis Bellarine Selection and 2003 Giant Steps. The Diamond Valley has been unbelievably consistent, which is good or bad depending on your point of view.
After that it's a maze - lots of wrong turns, promising starts and disappointing choices. A lot of it just looks the same. When you are paying $50 or $60 for some of these "Reserve" label pinots I think you are looking for some individuality, not just quality.
I like the two choices that you've already made. The Port Phillip is vg and you could look at Kooyong as well. Both are made by Sandro Mosele, who could probably be described as European influenced in his methods.
The Stonier Reserve that I had was vg. It's the kind of wine I'd like to try again in a couple of years time, which is probably what's intended. But the wine that really impressed me this year from Stonier was the Barrique One - it's hard to get though.
Another MP producer who can come up with the goods is Ten Minutes By Tractor. They have just released their 2003s, which I will be trying next time I'm down that way - 10X Pinot Noir (low $30s), Reserve Pinot Noir and Wallis Vineyard Pinot Noir.
Last time I was at Mornington Peninsula I thought the 2003s generally looked pretty good. Some of the pinots that I've liked have been from Hickinbotham (the Family Reserve), Kooyong, Main Ridge, Moorooduc, Paringa, Port Phillip, Stonier, Ten Minutes By Tractor, Willow Creek (the Tulum). You just don't get much consistency and you have to get used to that I suppose.
Not much from Yarra Valley that I really like right now, except Diamond Valley, Giant Steps and sometimes Coldstream Hills (the standard label I mean). The Reserves from Coldstream Hills and Yering Station impress people I think. A year or two ago, I tried a Hillcrest pinot that I liked that was made by Phillip Jones.
Otherwise Bass Phillip (Gippsland), the Curlewis Reserve (Geelong) and Bannockburn (Geelong) of course if you want to spend the money. If you want to follow Gary Farr (ex Bannockburn), last year the By Farr and Farr Rising pinots were vg.
A good summary. I would add Tomboy Hill to the list - I've had a few bottles and enjoyed them quite a lot - not always big fruity numbers, but have a bit more structure. The same could be said for Bindi, another favourite of mine. I would also add Ashton Hills to the list - about the only non Victorian pinot I would consider (but I bet I've forgotten some). Burgundy, of course, is a different matter altogether, but the price escalates quite steeply....
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:34 pm
by Maximus
Graham,
I'd second the Coldstream as okayish and top qpr - but in all seriousness, don't waste your time on the Aussie rubbish.
(Danny, Craig, Sue - I'm going to need backup here!
)
It is
very tough going to find one that is decent, let alone enjoyable with plenty of varietal character. Based on the Australian climate, the only real regions that I would expect to have promise are parts of Victoria and Tasmania. Instead, turn to the kiwi pinots.
The pinots that rank at the very top of my scale are the Felton Road Block 3 (a myth? rare stuff), the Pegasus Bay Prima Donna, Herzog, Fromm and Craggy Range. However, you'd be pushing $50 minimum for most of those. If you can pick it up in Oz, try the gear from Main Divide, Chard Farm and Peregrine. More like $20-$35 and representing great value. Better still, jump on a plane and tour Central Otago, Waipara and Marlborough. New World pinot finds its heart on the South Island of NZ.
Cheers,
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:48 pm
by Neville Nessuno
Graham
I second what Davo says - all too hard, too many disappointments - even if you find one - its overpriced relative to other varietals and even if you find one good producers vintage, chances are the next vintage will not be consistent.
Good luck trying anyway and welcome
NN
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:04 pm
by Grant
By Farr Sangrial 2003, Stefano Lubiana 2002, Paringa Estate 2003.
Cheers
Re: Favourite Pinot Noir
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:51 pm
by Sean
deleted
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:57 pm
by Kieran
Pegasus Bay 01. Big, full-bodied, lots of interesting flavours.
Kieran
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:09 am
by Mike Hawkins
I'll third Davo's comments ....
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:05 am
by Ian S
Only two have made me really sit up & think - great wine.
Martinborough Vineyards 2000 (and to be fair the 1999 was pretty good), but this one at four years old had great complexity. Oddly the bottle of the 1998 Martinborough reserve tasted last year was a real struggle, so the remaining bottle will wait another year or two
Hamilton-Russell (South Africa) - can't recall the vintage
The first Pinot I ever enjoyed, as all the previous had tasted a little too "twiggy" (both in flavour and profile - thin and lean).
I have only 4 pinots in our small cellar, the aforementioned MR1998, a Margrain 2002, a Kawarau reserve(otago) 2003 and a 1994 Pommard (can't recall the producer).
Ian
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:34 pm
by David
I am impressed by the 2002 Mount Lofty Ranges.
An impossibly steep vineyard site with vsp trellising. Lovely rich pinot with strawberries and forest floor, good depth and a touch of the feral. Great with grilled salmon steaks.
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 6:36 pm
by Adam
Barrossa valley floor pinot is the way to go...so hot right now.
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:24 pm
by GrahamB
Have you noticed the lack of comment from the true RB of this board?
Pinot Noir is really only Chardonnay in a black skin. So why bother! They even blend the two together and put bubbles in it.
The search for the great PN is one that I have almost given up on. Too many of these great young winemakers making sensational red juice for me to try to then waste time trying to find a good PN. People tell me that it is worth the journey but ......
Graham
pinot
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:27 pm
by Craig(NZ)
96 Dry River
94 Martinborough Vineyards Reserve
96 Martinborough Vineyards Reserve
Those are my top kiwi drops from the last decade.
But pinot is so fickle, I havent got a favourite label. Some Otago labels show a bit of promise - Carrick is one that springs to mind, but I really would like to see what they do in the cellar.
From Marlborough I like the Fromm La Strada Fromm vineyard pinot. Maybe not as high profile as the Clayvin but I prefer the Fromm vineyard.
Pinots need to seduce. Too many kiwi examples good depth but show too much fat jammy fruit and lack of fine structure along with finesse.
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:54 pm
by Gianna
To an extent I agree with Davo and his comments about the endless task one can go through to find a great pinot. Nevertheless, it is worth it when a great one comes along.
Unfortunately, $50 gets you no where......
Best of the best according to my taste:
Australia
Bannockburn Serre and Bass Phillip stand alone.
I am yet to be "wow-ed" by Giaconda, 2nd tier in my rankings.
NZ
Olssens of Bannockburn - Slapjack - Seriously great stuff with real QPR
USA - Oregon
Domaine Serene - Evanstadd Reserve and the Mark Bradford.
Both of these wines are stand outs.
The Evasham Wood Cuvee J is another serious QPR, but also 2nd tier compared to the others.
Without wishing to get into a slinging match with any RB's, it is hard not to acknowledge good pinots as serious wine. (at least u can't c-thru it
)
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:12 pm
by cranky
Adam wrote:Barrossa valley floor pinot is the way to go...so hot right now.
... nearly as hot as the winery in Alice Springs
Quickly back to the topic, I have enjoyed the Picardy Tete a Cuvee 2001, recently available at a reduced RRP of about $45. It used to be about $65, perhaps the market found it overpriced?
Also Peregrine (from Central Otago in NZ, not yet part of Australia
), though the one I tried in Queenstown and the one I had in London a couple of weeks later were very different... full and rich in NZ, while far more lean and savoury in UK... different vintage (2002/3?) or just bottle variation? That was Xmas 03, and have yet to see any in Australia, though.
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 1:40 am
by Max
cranky wrote:Quickly back to the topic, I have enjoyed the Picardy Tete a Cuvee 2001, recently available at a reduced RRP of about $45. It used to be about $65, perhaps the market found it overpriced?
Really? Where at? At that price it makes it only a touch more expensive than Picardy's regular pinot...
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:44 am
by Milwaukee Twin
Pinot Noir is an illusive grail in Australia. Better off sticking to the Rhone varietal. I support AOC Australia.
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:13 am
by smithy
Pinot Noir
"Never has so much bollocks been said by so many about so little"
Thanks to Winston Churchill
Shouldn't be planted south of Verzenay
Smithy
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 1:36 pm
by TORB
GrahamB wrote:Have you noticed the lack of comment from the true RB of this board?
Graham,
As one of the bigot broothers, when I see a post with Pinot in the title I don't even read it till its got about 25 responses.
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:27 pm
by J Halliday Jr
smithy wrote:8)
Pinot Noir
"Never has so much bollocks been said by so many about so little"
Thanks to Winston Churchill
Shouldn't be planted south of Verzenay
Smithy
Speaking of bollocks, come back to me when you've produced a wine as good as the Bass Phillip Reserve 1999.
pinot
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:39 pm
by smithy
dear JHJ (Great ring to it that)
Done it many times.
Cheers
Smithy