The Auswine Forum

After buying some "young" but good reds recently and dutifully recording them in my database, when it came time to indicate the ideal drinking time I was stunned by the differences of opinion.

Penfolds Web Site - Tasting Notes - Peak Drinking
02 RWT 2006 - 2020
02 Bin 707 2007 - 2020

Jeremy Oliver
02 RWT 2010 - 2014+
02 Bin 707 2022 - 2032

And I am sure I could get a whole range of dates from other writers.

At first glance one would think the manufacturer/wine maker would know the best drinking time. But then are they keen on getting you to buy more wine drink early and buy more, so is it in their interest to state an early drinking time.

I would be interested to hear what others have to say and perhaps even some reps from a winery comment on the recommended drinking windows.

Wayne

One place may be assuming perfect cellaring conditions, one person may be allowing a bit less in the knowledge that very few wines get stored in perfect cellaring conditions.

Living in Darwin I reckon you should be very conservative about cellaring periods.

Wayne,

Although I do take notice of the drinking windows published by different wine writers/wineries/etc, personally I take "recommended" drinking windows with a grain of salt. There are a lot of factors out there that determine what a particular bottle's prime drinking window is, cellar conditions, does the drinker like their wines young or mature? being a few of them.

For me the main reason I purchase multiple bottles of the same wine is that it gives me the opportunity to see a wine evolve and come to a point where it suits my palate. At the end of the day when it hits a point that I like it at, then I ear-mark the rest to drink around this time. Therefore, if my bottle of 2002 RWT is drinking well at 2008 or 2010 or 2012 (according to my palate), I can then decide to drink the rest around the period that suits me personally. At the end of the day, IMHO the drinker is in the best position to decide what the best time to drink a particular bottle of wine. The published drinking windows are only a guide.

apjordan wrote:Wayne,

Although I do take notice of the drinking windows published by different wine writers/wineries/etc, personally I take "recommended" drinking windows with a grain of salt. There are a lot of factors out there that determine what a particular bottle's prime drinking window is, cellar conditions, does the drinker like their wines young or mature? being a few of them.

Snap.

Some of the drinking windows people publish are hopelessly optimistic. A number of wineries do it. As much as I like the Tahbilk reds, they are pretty optimistic drinking windows. I've consumed a wine that was beginning to fall over that Parker gave a "now to 2035" drinking window.

apj is spot on, follow your own palate,

Andrew

Wayne,

For reasonable cellaring conditions, I find JO is pretty close to my preferences / experience for many wines in my cellar, so I often compare his estimates with my own.

However, I agree with the others in that I find some of the very extended drinking windows from JO, wineries and other reviewers a bit much for my tastes / experience, you have to like your reds pretty mature (more than I do), have perfect cellaring and get lucky with corks to go that far. Screwcaps may change that a little though if they really are equivalent to "perfect corks".

Maybe it's a typo and JO meant 2012-2022 for the 2002 Bin 707?

generally I believe me if I have multiple bottles then I judge its drinking window based on my experience.

otherwise I look at the vintage and the label to give me a guide based on past experiences with past vintages

also in general terms the variety and style can give you a ballpark

if I have to rely on other peoples predictions I always err to the side of early over late. better a bit young than past it.

Ratcatcher wrote:Living in Darwin I reckon you should be very conservative about cellaring periods.

You're right Darwin is not a good place to cellar wine, thats why I have gone with a couple of Vintecs, the only other alternative is to drink them quick, which has a lot of merits to it as well

[quote="Red Bigot"]Wayne,

For reasonable cellaring conditions, I find JO is pretty close to my preferences / experience for many wines in my cellar, so I often compare his estimates with my own. quote]

Generally I have found JO's drinking windows to match fairly close to my tastes, but I don't think I will be keeping it for that long, would like to enjoy it before I shuffle of this mortal coil and its not going to be left to children

At the end of the day it's a great degree of guesswork. Bottle variation only confuses the matter, as do personal preferences. I'm not surprised by the differences.

What I look for in a critic, is their experience of prior vintages to give an educated guess to the window. When you see people like Michael Broadbent get it wrong (on Bordeaux) it demostrates how tough it can be.

For many wine producers I'd generally take their drinking windows with a pinch of salt, as some think a longer window reflects better on their product.
However there are a good number of producers who aren't influenced by this thinking (I'd put Penfolds in this category, as the rewards of patience clinics would put them face to face with unhappy customers if they over-egged the windows)

Personally I tend to look for an earlyish window if I only have 1, but wouldn't get too hung up about it, as it's great finding a forgotten bottle that far exceeds expectations.

Ian

Ian S wrote:For many wine producers I'd generally take their drinking windows with a pinch of salt, as some think a longer window reflects better on their product.
However there are a good number of producers who aren't influenced by this thinking (I'd put Penfolds in this category, as the rewards of patience clinics would put them face to face with unhappy customers if they over-egged the windows)
Ian

Well, there are two ends to a drinking window. I'm rarely concerned about, say, Penfolds overstating their drinking windows. They hint at it in the intro to most of the RoP guides - so many wines are "now - xxx" that I question the start of their windows. Even the weakest vintages of 707 are palateable under 10 years to me, yet Penfolds would have you believe that only the last 2-3 releases are not 'ready-to-drink'. Wineries with less history to protect are even keener for you to pop the cork I suspect.

I am inclined to think that Tahbilk, for example, exaggerate their windows. I posted notes here on a 15-yr Shiraz vertical a while back, and I can't believe that their newsletter has 90-99 still [i]improving[/b]. The last two I'd concede, but that's it.

Trouble with JO's windows is you don't know how old they are. Mostly he's pretty good. But I can't help but feel that he's not done long vertical tastings of, for example, Petaluma Riesling and Noble One, for quite some time...

cheers,
Graeme

Cellaring conditions play a big part in the drinking windows as most have noted. Mine are rudimentary but include aircon in summer. Had a bottle of Tahbilk 1860s shiraz 95 last Xmas that was nicely mature after having held it for 3 or so years. I haven't a wine that I want not to drink before I die either but a cheap wine fridge appeals. Not that I have many wines that are worthwhile.....but then again some are. $300 cooler from the local barn is starting to appeal to me for a dozen or so of the best to have when I retire from the job I do. Vintecs are not affordable for me.

daz

For a wine newbie, it takes time to work out what my palate preferences are in terms of varietals, oak-treatment, regional differences, and maturity level of the wine. It might be a good idea to try to track down some older wines and see what they taste like when they are matured or close to the optimal drinking window as recommended by forum members and wine critics.

Right now, I am not too worried about drinking my wines too late as most of them are from the 2000 to 2004 vintages. However, I do have a bottle of Robert Ampeau's Volnay-Santenots 1991. I wonder if it is over the hill. Maybe, I should pop it open soon, but only after I get over this terrible cold.':('

I had a bottle of 95 Wendouree Cab Sauv last night, which every author tells me shouldn't be touched until 2015...

But I couldn't wait and it was sensational. Oh well.

Daryl Douglas wrote:Cellaring conditions play a big part in the drinking windows as most have noted. Mine are rudimentary but include aircon in summer. Had a bottle of Tahbilk 1860s shiraz 95 last Xmas that was nicely mature after having held it for 3 or so years. I haven't a wine that I want not to drink before I die either but a cheap wine fridge appeals. Not that I have many wines that are worthwhile.....but then again some are. $300 cooler from the local barn is starting to appeal to me for a dozen or so of the best to have when I retire from the job I do. Vintecs are not affordable for me.

daz

Daryl
One of Noel Youngs team put it well as regard basic wine fridges - will it be better than your ambient conditions? if so go for it. If you can afford to buy the best equipment, then do so, but don't ignore a cheap improvement in the meantime. Of course there's still good & bad, but rarely do you see any real vibration issues with wine coolers these days.
Ian

Thanks for those replies, like all thing it is nice to have hard and fast rules. But obviously this doesn't apply in the case of cellaring.

Previously I have found JO tiem frames to be close to what I like, but I wont be keeping it as long as he recommends in this case.

Once again thanks for the help