The Auswine Forum

Wyndham Estate recently celebrated the first commercial Shiraz plantings in Australia at their Dalwood vineyards, and has also claimed that they are AustraliaÂ’s oldest continuously operating winery. Now I find that Schild Estate Wines has launched a wine called Moorooroo Shiraz with the claim that it is made with grapes from the oldest commercial vineyard in Australia. Their Shiraz vines were planted near Jacobs Creek by William Jacob in 1846. So they are 150 years old, more or less. Turkey Flat Vineyard also claims some of the oldest Shiraz vines in the world. Theirs were planted in 1847 and are still producing fruit.

Why is this of any interest? Well IÂ’ve just finished reading The Botanist and the Vintner: How Wine Was Saved for the World by Christy Campbell. It is the story of how Phylloxera was introduced to Europe from America. ItÂ’s a great read and IÂ’ll post a review some time soon. But after reading the book its obvious that Australia, thanks to James Busby, was blessed with original rootstock from the Old World. The question is how much of that original material has survived? How old are Australia's oldest vines? And where are they?

Mike

PS This post with numerous links is up on my eBlog for those interested. I'm just too lazy to add them all here again.

Mike,

old vines are a bit of a contntious issue in my opinion, our Shiraz along with Aberfeldy and Wendouree (funnily enough all in the same valley) are amongst some of the oldest in Clare, which share an approximate age of around 100 yrs. However, the rest of our plantings are only 35 yrs old. I feel that vines don't have an infinitate life span, they do reach somewhat of a peak and like anything primary industry related they can get to a point where the work to maintain may be higher than that of replacement.

Not detracting from old vines, they can produce some very stunning wines, however compared to well established clean planting material vines that may only be 30 years old, what is the difference besides the romance associated with the old vine addage? Are people more drawn to old vine wines, and if so whats the special drawcard?

Thoughts appreciated,
Colin.

Hi Colin

Well for me old vines have more of a historical interest. (Plus, of course, the French probably still complain that the wine from vines on American root stock is not the same as on the original Vitis vinifera. And its nice to know that we still have some.)

As for wine from old (say 50-100+ yo) versus not so old (say less than 30 yo) vines. We were quite impressed with a number of wines during our recent trip to the Barossa from old vines (e.g. Kalleske). But some outstanding wines came from relatively young vines. The Dutschke Shiraz wines apparently come from a vineyard planted in 1975.

Mike

Got to say this is one of the biggest furphy's out there.
Having made wine from 85 year old vines and baby's, I can say that its all bull!

Old vines are in balance, low yielding generally.
Young vines2-3 year old (more if poorly grown) are very prone to overcroppping.If you can get them into balance, or yield them low, which may be harder than it sounds, you can make great wines from them.We have 6 year old vines that have roots down 1.8m and are "mature "vines.

I would argue soils and maturities and yields are way more important than vine age. For some its just a marketing tool. Crap soil doesn't make better wines than good stuff just cos the vine are older!

Cheers
Smithy

KMP wrote:Wyndham Estate recently celebrated the first commercial Shiraz plantings in Australia at their Dalwood vineyards, and has also claimed that they are AustraliaÂ’s oldest continuously operating winery. Now I find that Schild Estate Wines has launched a wine called Moorooroo Shiraz with the claim that it is made with grapes from the oldest commercial vineyard in Australia. Their Shiraz vines were planted near Jacobs Creek by William Jacob in 1846. So they are 150 years old, more or less. Turkey Flat Vineyard also claims some of the oldest Shiraz vines in the world. Theirs were planted in 1847 and are still producing fruit.

\

Olive Farm in the Swan Valley was planted in 1829 and has been operating as a commercial vineyard/winery until it's closure this year.

Always interesting to read claims about the oldest winery/vines.

I was discussing this old vine thing with a respected winemaker in the Barossa earlier this year, and his comment was that, without prejudice, there appeared to be more wine made from 100 year old vines in the Barossa than there were 100year old vines, and that one day they are going to have to prove their claims if they are to prove truth in labelling. A visit from a lawyer and a horticulturalist with a chainsaw somehow popped into the discussion.

Davo wrote:
I was discussing this old vine thing with a respected winemaker in the Barossa earlier this year, and his comment was that, without prejudice, there appeared to be more wine made from 100 year old vines in the Barossa than there were 100year old vines, and that one day they are going to have to prove their claims if they are to prove truth in labelling. A visit from a lawyer and a horticulturalist with a chainsaw somehow popped into the discussion.

Not dissimilar to the number of barrels that come out of Troncais and the size of the forest there is to produce them from.

For Shiraz, I think the oldest in Australia are the early 1840s (still fruitful) from Langmeil. In 1843 Christian Auricht planted rows of Shiraz vines, and the original vines still remain, a 3.5 acre patch (albeit neglected for long time).

Turkey Flat's oldest planted vines are from 1847. As for henschke's legendary "Hill of Grace", the Grandfathers, as the oldest block is called, was planted by Nicolaus Stanitzki around the 1860s. Penfolds first cuttings were planted in 1845 by Dr Christopher Rawson Penfold.

The oldest continuing cabernet sauvignon vines in Australia, indeed the world, are the famed Block 42 from Kalimna in the Barossa Valley which are from the 1880s and owned by Penfolds. It was used in some of Penfolds greatest ever wines: 1953 Grange Cabernet, 1962 Penfolds Bin 60A (many claim this as Australia's greatest ever wine), and 1996 Penfolds Block 42 cabernet.

Halliday wrote about this in the Australian a year or two ago and concluded that Langmeil "The Freedom" was getting the grapes from Australia's oldest vines.

Kieran

Baby Chickpea wrote:.....
The oldest continuing cabernet sauvignon vines in Australia, indeed the world, are the famed Block 42 from Kalimna in the Barossa Valley which are from the 1880s and owned by Penfolds. It was used in some of Penfolds greatest ever wines: 1953 Grange Cabernet, 1962 Penfolds Bin 60A (many claim this as Australia's greatest ever wine), and 1996 Penfolds Block 42 cabernet.

Careful on this one, even Penfolds are willing to concede that Chile may have older C/S vines - no one really knows for sure. However, it is amazing to see the Kalimna Vines and the efforts that Pennies are putting in to ensure their continued survival.

That's why I said "continuing" (fruit produced every year) and why Penfolds also do. That said, there is the possibility of older vines as i have heard that Italy may also have some even more ancient cab vines.

Danny has summarised the claims from various wineries quite well.

I reiterate, it's viticulture that produces the grape quality rather than just vine age. I've had some excellent wines off quite young vines but they are always micro managed by hand.

There is however a romance associated with drinking genuinely old vine wine although what % of Turkey Flat Shiraz is sourced from the veterans is not known to me.

Schild Estate have just released their 2001 Moorooroo Shiraz from 1846 vines.

Damn it's hard using wine-searcher to find Schild. Get a million matches for Rothschild.

Kieran

Here's a hint...you may have trouble finding a Rothschild Shiraz. Try searching for "Mouton Rothschild Shiraz" or "Lafite Rothschild Shiraz"; do you get any matches? Now, using the reverse induction method of wine searching, you'll see that if you type 'Shiraz' after 'Schild'...you get the idea. How about Chateau Latour Moorooroo? Anything there?

Greetings all,

I believe we have a simple answer to these claims.

A chainsaw, a botanist and a lawyer.

Let the truth speak

~rolf

Anonymous wrote:Here's a hint...you may have trouble finding a Rothschild Shiraz. Try searching for "Mouton Rothschild Shiraz" or "Lafite Rothschild Shiraz"; do you get any matches? Now, using the reverse induction method of wine searching, you'll see that if you type 'Shiraz' after 'Schild'...you get the idea. How about Chateau Latour Moorooroo? Anything there?

Haha....but Rothschild make a Shiraz? so you will still get the Rothschild Syrah coming up I imagine...

Adam wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's a hint...you may have trouble finding a Rothschild Shiraz. Try searching for "Mouton Rothschild Shiraz" or "Lafite Rothschild Shiraz"; do you get any matches? Now, using the reverse induction method of wine searching, you'll see that if you type 'Shiraz' after 'Schild'...you get the idea. How about Chateau Latour Moorooroo? Anything there?

Haha....but Rothschild make a Shiraz? so you will still get the Rothschild Syrah coming up I imagine...

Why not stop imagining and put something into practice?

Why would I bother and waste my time when I know Rothschild make a Syrah, and therefore know it would come up.

Adam wrote:Why would I bother and waste my time when I know Rothschild make a Syrah, and therefore know it would come up.

Because we're looking at wines in Australia, and it won't?

*Yawn* get a lif...Im sure Kieran knows as well as you or I how to search for a wine...he was making an observation.

Anyhow...

Schild have a website you can visit and no doubt contact them about the Moorooroo if you really want some.

One important factor is also how much of the old vine material they throw into it, eg Turkey flat only use a very small proportion of the old vine stuff. Few are 100% old vine (whatever the definition of old vine is...but thats another topic).

Adam wrote:*Yawn* get a lif...

One second: lif

Lif, n. [Written also lief.] The fiber by which the petioles of the date palm are bound together, from which various kinds of cordage are made.

Right, will do at next possible opportunity Thanks for the great advice, you're great and deserve to be king one day...just making an observation.

Kieran wrote:Damn it's hard using wine-searcher to find Schild. Get a million matches for Rothschild.

Kieran

Schild website. The Moo Moo will retail for $85pb.

Mike

Olive Farm in the Swan Valley was planted in 1829 and has been operating as a commercial vineyard/winery until it's closure this year.

'Agreed Davo. And their literature (I think) made the claim that they were the oldest continually operating winery in Australia. However, in the argument about Australia's oldest vines, who knows? Vines grow old, and become unproductive or at least uneconomical.

Why did Olive Farm relocate? The wines have been ordinary for years, so the quality based on vine age is obviously not a factor here.

I have friends who are making reasonable wine in Margaret River in most cases from young-ish vines. None of these are likely to be world-beaters, though.

Maybe the word we're looking for is 'balance'. Ok, maybe 'terroir' is another one. But not necessarily. As wine drinkers, we're looking for the best expression of the combination of influencing factors - or are we just looking for a bloody good wine? I suspect the latter. When a producer manages the latter a few years in a row, then people will follow the wine, write it up, and the price may rise.

But this doesn't equate to vine age. I can understand the argument that aged vines = reduced yields = concentrated wines, but only to a point. Quality does not solely equate to yield. Yield, like vine age, is merely one of the factors in the production of top wine. '

Please feel free to argue the point on this one.

Waiters Friend

I used to take some Barossa Shiraz off a vineyard out the back of Langmeil in Tanunda in the Barossa Valley, and the age of the vineyard was believed to be 140-150 years old. The fruit was the best I have ever had the priviledge to make wine from.

Unfortunately, there was more money in sub-dividing the vineyard and selling it off at $150k per 1/4 acre, and the vines got bulldozed in 2003 to create Langmeil Estate. I can't tell you how pissed off I was.

I fear this will happen more and more over the next few years, as most of the really old vineyards in the Barossa and other regions are on the edge of townships, and hence are coming under increasing presure from developers. I don't really know what the answer is, because vines of that age crop extremely low, lets say 1-1.5 tonn/acre. Even if you were getting $5-6k/tonne for the fruit, the $$$ value will never stack up against selling the land for $600k/acre for housing.

A bloody tragedy isn't it.

Tim Burvill
RockBare

Tim, agree it's very sad but the $ rules and at the end of the day you can't legislate against that type of thing happening because it disadvantages the landholder.

Who knows how good the southern Adelaide plains vineyards would have been in current times if suburbia hadn't overtaken them. That's why the Richard Hamilton Marion Vineyard Grenache Shiraz is a gem, the only remaining patch of vines and they were nearly lost to a fast food outlet, bravo Marion Council.

Speaking of that wine, I've seen a couple of the yet to be released vintages and it's excellent, Paul Gordon is doing great things at Hamilton/Leconfield.

Waiters Friend - no argument from me, I prattle on all the time about great viticulture being a major plank in great wine, it can even do so from relatively young vines.

Adam Wrote:

One important factor is also how much of the old vine material they throw into it, eg Turkey flat only use a very small proportion of the old vine stuff. Few are 100% old vine (whatever the definition of old vine is...but thats another topic).

What happens to the greater portion? They don't do an 'old vine' label and I can't believe such a popular icon as TF would sell such a treasure to other makers??

cheers,

David M.

Hacker wrote:Adam Wrote:

One important factor is also how much of the old vine material they throw into it, eg Turkey flat only use a very small proportion of the old vine stuff. Few are 100% old vine (whatever the definition of old vine is...but thats another topic).

What happens to the greater portion? They don't do an 'old vine' label and I can't believe such a popular icon as TF would sell such a treasure to other makers??

cheers, David M.

I think what was actually meant was that one would assume the whole of the 1840s vines crop gets into the TF Shiraz but as production has risen, the 1840s vines have become a smaller proportion of whats in the bottle.

Yip, what Steve said

I would hate to guess what percentage is from the old block, but I imagine it is reasonably small?? anyone know?

707 wrote:Tim, agree it's very sad but the $ rules and at the end of the day you can't legislate against that type of thing happening because it disadvantages the landholder.
.

I wonder if you could get themk classified as historic places and hence protected??

Waiters Friend wrote:Olive Farm in the Swan Valley was planted in 1829 and has been operating as a commercial vineyard/winery until it's closure this year.

'Agreed Davo. And their literature (I think) made the claim that they were the oldest continually operating winery in Australia. However, in the argument about Australia's oldest vines, who knows? Vines grow old, and become unproductive or at least uneconomical.

Why did Olive Farm relocate? The wines have been ordinary for years, so the quality based on vine age is obviously not a factor here.

I have friends who are making reasonable wine in Margaret River in most cases from young-ish vines. None of these are likely to be world-beaters, though.

Maybe the word we're looking for is 'balance'. Ok, maybe 'terroir' is another one. But not necessarily. As wine drinkers, we're looking for the best expression of the combination of influencing factors - or are we just looking for a bloody good wine? I suspect the latter. When a producer manages the latter a few years in a row, then people will follow the wine, write it up, and the price may rise.

But this doesn't equate to vine age. I can understand the argument that aged vines = reduced yields = concentrated wines, but only to a point. Quality does not solely equate to yield. Yield, like vine age, is merely one of the factors in the production of top wine. '

Please feel free to argue the point on this one.

Waiters Friend

Yep, agree totally with your sentiments.

I just thought I would throw the Olive Farm claims in. Not making a point except perhaps that they are only claims and claims don't make great wine. That comes from great grapes with a little help from a sensitive winemaker.

The comments about the Langmeil Estate in the Barossa also hold true for Olive Farm. The size of the home block got smaller and smaller over the years with the ingress of the city and the value of that riverfront land just kept getting bigger and bigger.

Which Is Australia's Oldest Continuous Commercial Vineyard?
Grapevine cuttings arrived with the First Fleet in 1788. By 1791 Governor Phillip had 3.5 acres of vines in his garden at Parramatta. The first wine in the colony was made in 1792 by Philip Schaeffer (a German free-settler and superintendant of convicts) at his Rydalmere farm.
In 1800 Antoine Landrien and Francoise de Riveau, French prisoners-of-war, were sent to Sydney to promote viticulture, but had little success.
In 1806 Gregory Blaxland arrived, purchased 450 acres at Brush Farm (Eastwood) and began growing vines. In 1822 he was the first to export wine which won a Silver Medal from what is now the Royal Society of Arts in London.
In 1817 William Macarthur returned from France with a small collection of vines to start vineyards at Camden Park and near Penrith.
In 1824 James Busby arrived with some vine cuttings from France and planted them at the Male Orphan School, Cabramatta. In 1830 he published "A Manual of Directions for Planting and Cultivating Vineyards" in which he recorded that, "...he had also applied, at the pruning season, to every person whom he knew to possess vines of the varieties best suited to the climate, requesting that all spare cuttings might be preserved. These, to the number of upwards of 20,000, were brought to the Government Garden at Sydney, and persons who were desirous of commencing the planting of vineyards were invited to send a written application for plants before a certain day. The cuttings were distributed among upwards of 50 applicants."
Busby subsequently recorded that, "William Macarthur of Camden, Gregory Blaxland of Brush Farm, Field of Mars, Mr Sadlier at the Male Orphan School, Cabramatta, Mr Frazer, the Colonial Botanist at the Botanic Gardens, [and] Sir John Jamieson (Sweetwater)" supplied the cuttings which he subsequently distributed from the Government Garden (where Sydney University and Victoria Park are now.)
Busby delivered vines in July and August to the following Hunter Valley applicants: George Wyndham of Dalwood, William Kelman of Kirkton, James King of Irrawang, Captain Pike of Pickering, George Townshend of Trevallyn, James Webber of Tocal, Colonel Dumaresq of St Helliers, William Ogilvie of Merton, Mr Little of Invermain, Mr Pilcher of Maitland and James Glennie of Dulwich.
George Wyndham's Diary records that he planted 600 vines on 1st September 1830.
Dalwood, now called Wyndham Estate, has been a vineyard ever since.
None of the other vineyards listed above remained in continuous production although several have been subsequently re-established.
Until 2005, the claim to be Australia's oldest continuous commercial vineyard went to Olive Farm, in the Swan Valley, planted by Thomas Waters in 1829. Whether it had been in continuous production, as it was derelict when Ivan Yurisich bought it in 1933, is no longer relevant, as it has ceased operating on that site. Thus the claim of Wyndham Estate to be the oldest continuous commercial vineyard in Australia is soundly based.
This claim now resides with Wyndham Estate