The Auswine Forum

I'm thinking of planting some red grapes in the backyard to make my own "estate" wine. I live in Melb East. I already have access tp barrels, basket press and vat's.

I would like to grow enough to make 1 barrel, so assume I probably need to harvest about 400kg.

Can some one please tell me how much space I would need?

Thks
Clive
PS: Sorry that for Cabernet

Clive,
It all depends on the sort of wine you want to make.
If you're after Three Rivers quality, you'll need an acre; if however,
you're happy with say Jacobs Creek quality, then 250 sq. metres
would be enough for the vines, but you would probably need as much
again to turn the machine harvester around!
Its as simple as that.
Cheers.

I assume you're talking a 225 litre barrel in which case about 400kg of hand picked would be the amount required, that's simple.

Now the tricky part, your problem will be that your crop size will vary so don't plant just enough to get 400kg in a good year because if you have a lighter crop you won't have a full barrel. I'd suggest 1/2 acre and crop thin once you know how much fruit is set.

Good luck.

Clive A wrote:I'm thinking of planting some red grapes in the backyard to make my own "estate" wine. I live in Melb East. I already have access tp barrels, basket press and vat's.

I would like to grow enough to make 1 barrel, so assume I probably need to harvest about 400kg.

Can some one please tell me how much space I would need?

Thks
Clive
PS: Sorry that for Cabernet

Its a tough exercise, might need a bit more information. How much room have you got? how much money do you want to spend? How much time have you got?

Cabernet frequently set poorly, often suffers from hen and chickens, additional to this bunch weight is less than other varieties due to berry size.

Remember planting half an acre is not necesarily a good guide, your budget will dictate plant spacings therefore vine density (half an acre could be one vine or it could be 600 vines), trellis style so on and so forth...


Cheers
Colin.

Clive A wrote:I'm thinking of planting some red grapes in the backyard to make my own "estate" wine. I live in Melb East. I already have access tp barrels, basket press and vat's.

I would like to grow enough to make 1 barrel, so assume I probably need to harvest about 400kg.

Can some one please tell me how much space I would need?

Thks
Clive
PS: Sorry that for Cabernet

Clive,

I'm no viticulturist yet but I'm studying to be. Based on my very limited knowledge, I would disagree with the first guest to respond to your post, who stated that 250 square metres of land is for Jacobs Creek style wines (compared to one acre for three rivers). Now, 250 square metres is definitely too small, but if you're looking to plant in very narrow rows you'll reduce vine vigour (a good thing for fruit concentration) and have more vines per given area. A reduced crop will of course mean more vines required to produce your 400kg output, so it's a catch22 and something that has to be considered with a great deal of research.

I would also suggest that if you're only looking for 400kg fruit weight, hand harvesting would be a much better option than machine harvesting (unnecessary and costly). I agree with the second guest's suggestion of planning for a higher fruit weight and thinning on fruit set.

Have you thought about type/s of clone/s yet?

Cheers,

For commercial or personal consumption?

In Melb.East, ur success rate will be higher with Pinot than with thicker skin varietal such as Cabernet.

Clive, don't listen to Martin, avoid that see through stuff and plant your chosen Cabernet. Clones are very important so be thorough, haste makes waste.

Make sure you do plenty of research before starting and good luck, look forward to seing your first wine in 2011'ish

Further to my earlier advice, I'm a little miffed by the dismissive nature of Maximus, the 'trainee' viticulturalist - a Brisbane boy living in NZ ( is that a geographical tautology, or perhaps a case of a botched mystery flight ). What's wrong with machine harvesting anyway - the majority of Australia's grapes are harvested this way, and I was only trying to ease the stress of finding pickers at harvest time. To harvest 400 kg. (which incidentally, is approx 40 buckets ) he could use a large wheelbarrow, together with one or two more borrowed from neighbours, to go alongside the harvester. If the harvester is washed into the load, within no time you will have an extra barrel of rose-quality wine that can be used to repay the neighbours wheelbarrow hire, not to mention easing some of the tension caused by the bird-scaring gas gun noise, and fungicide drift that invariably occurs on windy days. I suspect that these features of modern viticulture were not included in the equation!
An important question that needs to be addressed is, "Is suburban Melbourne the right region to be growing Cabernet in the first place?" I look forward to further comments on this point.
Cheers.

It would be interesting know how east of melbourne Clive lives. Looking at the weather charts each night, there is no doubt that the Yarra Valley is a few degrees cooler, year-round, than, say, Brunswick or the city centre itself. It would also be relevant to know whether Clive's backyard has a slope to it, and if so, which way it slopes. If it faces south, I doubt cabernet's going to be any good. Personally I think shiraz and chardonnay seem to grow just about anywhere, and would be much safer bets than cabernet. But if it faces north, and you're close-in to melbourne, cabernet could be just dandy. I'd also look at it this way: aim to roughly make one bottle per vine, which means that you'll roughly need 360 vines. Make it 400-450 vines for safety. Close plant them to buggery. Restrict the yield to buggery. When the time comes, buy the best oak you can possibly afford. Go for the jugular. Don't just make a backyard wine, make your friends go wow.

guest 4.

Now oak is a problem with an operation this size. How do you manage one barrel per vintage? How variable will your oak treatment be?

You buy a new French barrique and put your first vintage in it, after 12 months it's taken up all that 100% new oak. Do you buy another new barrel for your second vintage or use your 12 month old barrel? The first two vintages will be completely different oak wise.

Better to buy new each year a reworked barrels, maybe with new heads in it for consistency vintage to vintage or buy a brand newie if your have a blinder vintage that begs 100% new.

In terms of aspect, it is very hard to categorically state that south would be no good, as row orientation, training and practice are of particular importance. I am not trying to be dismissive, just pointing out a feature of viticulutre. For example, a south facing slope with north south row orientation with vsp or curtained vines would work well (smart dyson, scott henry etc..), increased leaf exposure, high photosythetic rates, greater ripening potential. Further to this, the clone and stock would also influence suitable planting densities. You could plant at 1 x 1, just adjust fruit levels accordingly...

Again, I must reiterate, a bit more detail would be helpful. Planting vines and making wine may sound like fun, however for it to be sucessful, it is an awful lot of work. And the cost... Vines, presuming you buy grafted vines on virus free stock, planting, grow gaurds, trellis, installing the trellis, training, pruning, undervine management, spraying, more training, the list goes on...

As a side, why not buy half a tonne of fruit for the first year?

Cheers,
Colin.

Guest (first ) wrote: An important question that needs to be addressed is, "Is suburban Melbourne the right region to be growing Cabernet in the first place?" I look forward to further comments on this point. Cheers.

If you are really seriously crazy about this (and good on you by the way), why not have a chat to Dr Middleton (Mount Mary) or Reg Egan (Wantirna)?

Apparently Dr Middleton started growing grapes in his own backyard (in Lilydale) when he was a GP in the 50s. He got advice from the great Colin Preece, who was head of Seppelt at Great Western at the time.

He is a cabernet fan too.

Reg Egan started Wantirna in the 60s - that's Melbourne East. Where are you? I'm sure he could tell you about all the varieties he experimented with back in those days. Some of his early wines had grenache, malbec, mataro, PX, etc. But like the doctor he settled on cabernet and pinot.

So maybe cabernet it is???

I'll be Guest 5.

Thanks for the good advice guys.

I am located in Research which is sort of 15k's away from the mid-Yarra Valley.

I have approximately 500 sq metres to plant on, which has for the last 5 years been used to grow vegetables (tomatoes, zuchini, sweet corn, peepers,cuccumbers etc). It's was sandy loimy soil but has taken on a darker richer more porous character, due to approximately yearly 20m3 of annimal manures, plus regular dosses of blood/bone, seaweed extract, fish meal etc.etc. It is extremely fertile soil for it's current purpose, weed and disease free, organic and extensively mulched.

The backyard has no slope, it's dead flat, I have plenty of water in my tanks and the only shadow on the plot is a small corner taken up by the chook shed.

Time, love and affection are not an issue, and I dont see cost as an issue. I plan to make a handmade wine, with minimal chemical input, sort of from from the vine to the bottle with little human impact, if that makes sense.

I am not a wine conosiur (is that how you spell it?), but I do like lush fruity red wines with a dryish finish and a good seasoning of oak. I cannot really tell the difference between Shiraz and Cabernet, but I know I dont like Pinot and definetely dont want to create a one of those weak herbal, farmyard smelling wines. A yearly barrel for my personal use, friends, neighbours etc, would be bliss.

Hope this lends abit more light, appreciate eveybodies views. Thanks you in advance.

Rgds
Clive A

Clive. Trust me. Really, seriously, definitely, strenuously, consider planting shiraz rather than cabernet. Far, far, far less chance of it turning out weedy. Chances are that your neighbours will enjoy drinking it a lot more too.

guest 4.

Anonymous wrote:Clive. Trust me. Really, seriously, definitely, strenuously, consider planting shiraz rather than cabernet. Far, far, far less chance of it turning out weedy. Chances are that your neighbours will enjoy drinking it a lot more too.

guest 4.

Thank you Guest 4

Excuse my wine ignorance, but I thought the Yarra Valley makes world class Cabernet, and that Shiraz is a warmer S.A grape. If then Shiraz is a warmer climate grape, would'nt it end up weedier? Again apologies if I have got it wrong.

The more I think about it, the more I realise I probably need a red grape that grows the most even, as it will be one harvest, one crushing, one vat, one pressing, one barrell. I dont think I can afford vines that ripen unevenly.

I know you cant replicate wine, but my favourite of all time wine is a box of 1996 Saint Hugo from Coonawarra, I was given when I left my last job. I know this is probably a crappy wine for a wine forum board like this, but to me it was magic. Finished the last bottle at Christmas, and it just kept on getting better and better, hence my leaning towards cabernet.

So do you think I have a better chance of making this sort of wine from Shiraz?

Thks
Clive A

Anonymous wrote:
I know you cant replicate wine, but my favourite of all time wine is a box of 1996 Saint Hugo from Coonawarra, I was given when I left my last job. I know this is probably a crappy wine for a wine forum board like this, but to me it was magic. Finished the last bottle at Christmas, and it just kept on getting better and better, hence my leaning towards cabernet.

Weighing in for the firs ttime:

Clive rest assured, this is not crappy wine for this forum or anywhere else! i tihnk you'll find quite a few forumites have St Hugo in the cellar. I love the stuff, and have a few different vintage put away.

I'd also expect you'll find it hard to replicate.

Im not the scientist that some other contributors to this thread are, but by the sounds you have a very fertile plot of land. This might do you more harm than good, as I'd expect whatever you plant to be very vigourous in the fertile soil you describe, and you might struggle to produce wine quality grapes without some type of significant management program (or am I off the track completely here?)

You're bnot on your own Clive. I know someone who has planted both Cabernet and Shiraz in his back yard here in Brisbane - a 400 square metre block with a house on it, he only has a handful of vines. He is very knowledgeable and knows what he is doing, but I dont think he's doing his own winemaking (on site anyway)!

best of luck whatever you do, and post again down the track to tell us how it turns out!

Cheers

Andrew

Thought I may as well add my two cents worth to this
1. High planting densities will not reduce your vigour on fertile soils; it will do the exact opposite, in my experiance.
2. In saying that; for the home block narrow rows will increase your production, as long as the sun hits the canopy you are right.
3. Shiraz is a more forgiving variety to make at home than cab, from the wines I have made anyway, as one of the guests mentioned weedy comes to mind, I would think about pinot, its not vigourous, makes a nice drop, and you can count yourself amongst the exclusive club of pinotphiles, read that again thats not pedophiles.
4. As someone said buy a tonne and make it up now, ring around there is plenty available from what I hear

All the best with it, there is nothing like drinking your own wine

cheers
Sean

Agreed with Marsalla,

Pinot is best suited. Those weak herbal ones are overcropped quaffer cf commercial quality. Try some high end Diamond Valley Close Planting/ White Label or Dommaine A and u'll get wat I meant.

Don't believe in the hype that Yarra Valley make world class Cabernet unless u r a fan of Dr.Middleton. I've drunk many so called ICONs fr Yarra - Mt.Mary, YY1 etc. and none of them come close to ur beloved Saint Hugo. At best it's Cru Borgeois standard. The only Yarra Cab which impressed me is the d'Bortoli becos it's different fr the mainstream.

Rgds,MC

Only problem is Pinot is probably a harder variety to make into wine than alot of others. Not saying you cant do it but it can turn out to be anything.

platinum wrote:Only problem is Pinot is probably a harder variety to make into wine than alot of others.

No really. You need PASSION.
Start with the right clones ie. Dijon, close planting, crop thinning etc and the right vinification method - cold soak, open fermenter, plunging, malolactic in the barrel etc.

Hell, enough with the pseudo-scientific BS.

Do what I did.

Pick your variety, go as much with what you like drinking as what is suitable for your area because you will be drinking a lot of it, and plant it as close as you like or your area and machinery allows.

My rows are 2m apart as that is the width of my mower and trailer, and the vines are 1.2m apart. I have 2 patches of 700 Shiraz & 750 Viognier vines in my back yard taking up total space of about 1/2 and acre or 0.2ha.

The quantity of grapes produced depends on lots of things, pruning not being the least.

Plant em close, plant as many as you can and control volume produced by pruning and bunch thinning. Better to have fewer bunches off more vines than the alternative.

Remember though, this is just one idiots opinion.

Burgman wrote:

platinum wrote:Only problem is Pinot is probably a harder variety to make into wine than alot of others.

No really. You need PASSION.
Start with the right clones ie. Dijon, close planting, crop thinning etc and the right vinification method - cold soak, open fermenter, plunging, malolactic in the barrel etc.

Can you explain even basically what Cold Soak, plunging, Malolactic in the barrel all are please? Curiosity killed this cat.

Why not give St. Hugo a ring, they may supply you with some
cuttings once you explain your love of their drop (you just have to
pop over the border...can you take them back into Vic. ?)
Pay back is you will be telling everyone about St. Hugo,
and once you make yours, appreciate even more what a great
job they are doing. Enjoy the disasters and problems you will
have as its about the journey.