The Auswine Forum

What is it? Is it Grange?

If you were responsible for marketing Aus wine to the people of Venus and you had the Venusian wine importer coming to a meeting and you could only show them one wine to impress them with the quality of Aus wines what would it be?

If God said to you tomorrow I will give you 2 dozen of any Australian wine you want but it's only for you to drink with your friends and not for resale or profting from financially what would you ask for? You would be allowed to cellar it but you could never sell it.

I've only tried Grange once and never had HoG or Runrig but I'd be tempted to go for them on reputaion but if I had to choose something I've drunk in some quantity I'd choose Langi Shiraz. Close second - Bannockburn Shiraz.

Clarendon Hills Astralis Syrah?

Three Rivers Shiraz?

Wild Duck Creek Duck Muck?

Glaetzer Amon Ra Shiraz?


Opinions will of course differ and be varied based on individual tastes, but of the four mentioned I've only tried the Amon Ra and would gladly settle with two dozen of these over Grange. HoG could be a different story...

1 case of 1965 Lindemans Bin 3110 HRB & 1 case of 1990 Penfolds 90A.

Adair

... and a 6 pack of 1986 Tyrrell's Vat 1, not cellared by Tyrrell's. (... and take away 3 of each of the above)

Yep, that would do me.

Adair

Penfold Block 42....................

Penfold Block 42....................

I have a 6pack 1996 Block 42 and it is sitting quietly under the my house. Hope it is gonna be a craker!

Has anyone tried it?

The most famous, YES!... the best? Subjective.

Marketing to the venusians: impossible to answer. they may have taste buds completely different to ours - like Americans.

Wine to drink only? Penfolds Bin 60A please.

Chambers Rare Liqueur Tokay.


It is Australia's greatest wine. And I'm happy to crack the Ton on this one.

Grange is great as is Mt Mary Quintet; Cullen DM; Moss Wood Cabernet and Giaconda Chardonnay.

Neville K 2c

Chambers Rare Liqueur Tokay.


It is Australia's greatest wine. And I'm happy to crack the Ton on this one.

Grange is great as is Mt Mary Quintet; Cullen DM; Moss Wood Cabernet and Giaconda Chardonnay.

Neville K 2c

I'd be happy with 1998 RunRig, 2002 RunRig or 1996 Roennfeldt Road Shiraz.

1996 Block 42 exists as a solitary bottle in my cellar, I just don't know when to drink it?

707 wrote:1996 Block 42 exists as a solitary bottle in my cellar, I just don't know when to drink it?

When I'm there

Ben Ean Moselle always worked as a leg opener for me.

This is really a very silly question with no possible answer as it is not your taste you need to impress but theirs and you have no idea as to their preference. ergo, just because you like it does not mean they will and the revers naturally holds true.

Even within my own palate my likes and dislikes change with time, place, mood. company weather etc etc.

Really an unanswerable question.

Whats better 90A or Block 42?

I have a lot of the wines mentioned above but haven't tasted them all so it's hard to tell.

One I have tasted that I don't have any of is the 1904 Seppelts 100 year old Para port. Give me two cases of that any time and believe me, it won't be sold and will only get shared with friends. Or maybe just drunk by myself. Maybe I'll just set up an intravenous drip except half the fun is the viscosity.

I've had quite a few vintages of grange now, the best being the 71 but the 100 year old para is in a different league.

I'd like ot try a 63 Grange and I'd also like to try a three rivers and duck muck and the Bin 60A. Other than those, everything else mentioned here I've either got or have tried already or both.

bacchaebabe wrote:I have a lot of the wines mentioned above but haven't tasted them all so it's hard to tell.

One I have tasted that I don't have any of is the 1904 Seppelts 100 year old Para port. Give me two cases of that any time and believe me, it won't be sold and will only get shared with friends. Or maybe just drunk by myself. Maybe I'll just set up an intravenous drip except half the fun is the viscosity.

I've had quite a few vintages of grange now, the best being the 71 but the 100 year old para is in a different league.

I'd like ot try a 63 Grange and I'd also like to try a three rivers and duck muck and the Bin 60A. Other than those, everything else mentioned here I've either got or have tried already or both.

Kris,

Would you mind giving us your thoughts on Bin 90A vs Bin 920 vs 1990 Grange, and then the 1996 Block 42 vs 1996 Grange if possible?

I have only had the 90A (on a number of occassions and have a few in the cellar) and the 1996 Grange (on one occassion), and have some 1990 Grange but have never tasted it.

Kind regards,
Adair

2001 Wolf Blass Platinum

Adair wrote:

bacchaebabe wrote:I have a lot of the wines mentioned above but haven't tasted them all so it's hard to tell.

One I have tasted that I don't have any of is the 1904 Seppelts 100 year old Para port. Give me two cases of that any time and believe me, it won't be sold and will only get shared with friends. Or maybe just drunk by myself. Maybe I'll just set up an intravenous drip except half the fun is the viscosity.

I've had quite a few vintages of grange now, the best being the 71 but the 100 year old para is in a different league.

I'd like ot try a 63 Grange and I'd also like to try a three rivers and duck muck and the Bin 60A. Other than those, everything else mentioned here I've either got or have tried already or both.

Kris,

Would you mind giving us your thoughts on Bin 90A vs Bin 920 vs 1990 Grange, and then the 1996 Block 42 vs 1996 Grange if possible?

I have only had the 90A (on a number of occassions and have a few in the cellar) and the 1996 Grange (on one occassion), and have some 1990 Grange but have never tasted it.

Kind regards,
Adair

Not Kris but I have had them. In order 90A then Grange then 920. Marginal difference in quality. 920 drinking better now but rate other two higher for potential. 920 will also improve.

Block 42 will become one of Australia's greatest ever reds - in time. Period. No argumants. An extraordinary cabernet. No point comparing to the equally fabulous 96 Grange but would put Block 42 on a pedestal that Aussie cab has rarely if ever achieved. has the power of latour, the texture of Margaux, the weight of LMHB and the structure of Lafite.

tasted 2004 62A and Block 42 from barrell recently. Not as good as 96 Block and 90A and certainly not worth estimated indent price of $600 per bottle. Buy more 96 grange at $300 from auction is the go.

Having read the replies and having a chance to rethink the question i guess what i was getting at is that if you asked the average person in the street what is Australia's best wine I imagine 8 or 9 out of 10 would say Grange because it's the most famous.

But is it true? Are there any contenders to the throne? Yes some wines have had some great vintages but in 25 years will the generalpublic still be answering the same way?

Given the original question would anyone take 2 cases of Grangewithout a 2nd thought?

Ratty,

I don't pretend to have a huge experience with Grange, but having said that I did drink a bit of it in the 70's and early 80's when it was still affordable, and I have tasted the last 7 vintages in a blind tasting against other Oz and imported shiraz.

Given the above, especially the blind tastings, I have no hesitation in saying, without prejudice, that Penfolds have done a wonderful marketing job.

Even the stunning 1998, and it is stunning, was equalled in a blind tasting by wines 1/8 it's price.

No, it is not the best, possibly never was, and probably never will be.

Just my opinion, mind. Just one plonkers experience.

Ratcatcher wrote:Having read the replies and having a chance to rethink the question i guess what i was getting at is that if you asked the average person in the street what is Australia's best wine I imagine 8 or 9 out of 10 would say Grange because it's the most famous.

But is it true? Are there any contenders to the throne? Yes some wines have had some great vintages but in 25 years will the generalpublic still be answering the same way?

Given the original question would anyone take 2 cases of Grangewithout a 2nd thought?

Yeah, ya wanna send 'em to me?

daz

Well, I've had Tahbilk 1860s Vines Shiraz 1985 at 16 yo and a 1995 at 9+ yo. Very nice aged wines, the former with 5 or so years left, the latter with 15 years or so. Also had a Tahbilk Shiraz Malbec 1990 recently that was also a very nice aged wine with the malbec adding some savoury notes to the dominant shiraz red berry fruit supported by integrated oak that probably included an american component - still noticeable tannins that suggest maybe another 5 years for them to soften further and don't think the fruit will be overpowered by them. None of them blockbusters but all very enjoyable wines.

daz

Young Grange (even the more approachable types released over the last decade) is NOT what Grange is about. From a vantage point of having tried all Grange for 30 years on release - and having drunk every Grange ever released - most at least half a dozen times at close to their respective peaks, that is my take.

To evaluate Grange you have to drink it in its true window: virtually never beneath the age of 15 - and in a few cases 25+. If you want to see a great Grange in full flow try the 1971 now, or a "lesser" (and certainly more affordable on the secondary market) Grange the 1975 which is drinking superbly now at age 30.

Whether the style really warrants being described as "the best" is another issue altogether, and perhaps a matter of individual taste.

On an individula basis the Penfolds bin 60A WAS the best Oz wine I have tasted but the last time I drank one, that bottle at least had just passed its peak. the 1959 and 1965 Lindemans HRB (preferring the bin 3110 to the 3100 of the 65s) deserve a mention as does the Penfolds bin 620. the 1996 Block 42 may be the best straight CS made by Penfolds (and it will be superb) but it is not a patch on the wines mentioned above - or indeed on the potential of the bin 920 and 90A.

I love great CS: even Oz CS including Cullen, Moss Wood, Mt mary but none of them come close to being Oz's "best wine ever made".

In whites Hunter semillon (with an honourable mention to Leo Buring rieslings of 1970 & 1975) takes the prize easily with the Lindemans "chablis" of 1970 probably the pick, while a few of the Tyrells vat1s continue the tradition.

Otherwise the great liqueur muscats of Rutherglen have to be considered as a style apart.

fred

Thank you for injecting a little reality into this post, Fred, especially the comments of Nunchuka, which must be taken with a grain of salt particularly in view of the fact that they carry no provenance. Your opinion is valued.

On another note, if it is indeed true that Penfolds will release the upcoming 2004 Bin 60A and Block 42 at an indent price of $600 or thereabouts, then they will truly have achieved the nadir of the brand. IMHO, even calling the 2004 vintage after the great Bin 60A of 1960 is a truly cynical ploy, riding on the coattails of Penfolds past illustrious history when the quality of the wine was the hallmark of the company and brand. Nowadays, the brand is king and the quality is poor.

In fact, I just had a novel thought: perhaps Penfolds should concentrate on quality and the brand management will take care of itself. I wonder whether that has crossed any of their feeble minds.

PJ.

95 Moss Wood would show some of the above listed wines a thing or two.

PJ, not sure why you're dissing Nunchucka as he's only replying to Adair's specific questions on the comparison of those wines. While I own all those wines, I haven't tried any except for a couple of tastings on release which is very difficult to make any judegment calls other than a general 'bloody hell, that's awsome'. With the cost of these wines, I don't open them when I buy them to see how they are going. there's enough notes around and people with obviously more money than me that do that.

Every tasting note I've read has put them in exactly the order nunchucka has suggested, including the rewards of patience and if anyone asked me, that would be my opinion too but only formed from the tasting notes of others.

Ratty's original question was not so much, which is the best wine in Australia (which we all have our own opinions on) is was, what is perceived to be the best wine in Australia now and in 25 years time.

While I think we can all state wines that in a given vintage are way better than a grange, the public's perception is fuelled by publicity, some from Penfolds, but mostly from record auction results. Stuff like three rivers and duck muck is at the periphery of the public's knowledge mainly because of the record prices achieved a few years ago but no-one will knock Grange off it's perch until old vintages of that wine are consistently achieving the same auction results as those of Grange. Grange is very much now seen as an investment vehicle as much as a wine and the myth of scarcity, rareity and quality perpetuates this. I can't see it changing, even in 25 years when those vintages from the 50's will be exponentially more than they are now at auction. Even the ones from the 60's are going that way now.

Daryl Douglas wrote: Also had a Tahbilk Shiraz Malbec 1990 recently that was also a very nice aged wine with the malbec adding some savoury notes to the dominant shiraz red berry fruit supported by integrated oak that probably included an american component - still noticeable tannins that suggest maybe another 5 years for them to soften further and don't think the fruit will be overpowered by them. None of them blockbusters but all very enjoyable wines.

daz

If that's the wine I tasted at CD last week then I'd say it was beginning to dry out quite significantly - to the point where freshness was lacking, yet not compensated for by the devlopment of interesting secondary characters. I'd have called it a 10 year wine rather than a 15-year one.

cheers,
Graeme