The Auswine Forum

Ive read the good reviews, the hype but is there anyone here that has a memory good enough to know that the 02s arent a patch on the 96s??

Maybe im getting too used to drinking cellared reds but to me all the 02s have good fruit purity, good concentration but no real depth, texture and definately no restraint, elegance (apart form maybe the 128), and no class.

Prefer Saltrams Mamre or a good HB

Comments?

Craig, alot of thinking like that amongst my associates. The 1996s were excellent wines but the 1998s were underwhelming despite all the hype.

IMO, the 2002s are the best SINCE 1996 but not sure they're in the same class as them. The Penfolds wines seem to lack soul now, or maybe it's just that I've moved onto small makers wines that do have soul?

Craig, I haven't had my first caffiene hit yet, so this may be an aberration, but I agree with you, I only bought a 6-pack of the 2002 389, because it is so much better than the 1999/2000/2001 and stands a good chance of maturing well.

I bought more of the Mamre Brook Cabernet, but it isn't a better wine than 389, a more satisfying drink now and for the next 5 or so years, but in 10 years time it will be faded long before the 389.

I wonder what the Glaymond Cabernet mentioned around here a bit recently would be like in 10 years, it was cheaper than 389 and it really makes the taste buds sing, it seems to have the structure to cellar too. I should have bought more, I think it is a better wine than 389.

At least the 2002 Pennies are a big step in the right direction...

I think Southcorp in general lost a lot of following with the release of the 99's (Grange/ John Riddoch/ etc)
These were wines with a big reputation that didn't make the grade (or were stretched too far to make the sales volume.
I'd argue the principal is the same for a big company as for a little one. Wines have to be as good or better than their reputation. Hopefully better if you want to grow a brand!

As far as vintages the 02 should walk over 96's..... perhaps the blend volumes were way bigger in 02.

Its sad to see big names coming unstuck at the seams. I'd argue that the mother of all stuff-ups in a winery is greed. Over charging, over cropping, over pressing and stretching blends too far..... its all greed. In a way its just mining the reputation that have been built up by others over the years.

Cheers
Smithy

smithy wrote: I'd argue that the mother of all stuff-ups in a winery is greed. Over charging, over cropping, over pressing and stretching blends too far..... its all greed.

Andrew,

Thats what happens when the bean counters are running the joint and making the decisions. Alternatively brand managers making the decisions who are only interested in short term results so they can achieve their quartely bonus objectives are just as bad.

Why should either of these groups care about the long term reputation of the brand when they are driven by short term quarterly onjectives to keep share holders happy.

Torb,

Couldn't agree with you more.

Smithy

I'm not impressed much with the latest releases. Think volumes are stretching - not good. It'll only get worse if the Fosters boys get their hands on it too.

cheers,
Graeme

My humble take:

I reckon that 2002, across south-eastern australia, was a better vintage than 1996 across the same stretch of regions. But specific to the Barossa: 1996 was a much better vintage than 2002. 1996 is ripe but balanced, at reasonable alcohols. 2002 was only fully ripe in the barossa at very high alcohols, which took fruit definition from the wines, which hindered personality, which hindered overall balance. 2002 is a damn good vintage, and has produced heaps of great wines, but it's not up to 1996. The 1996 Bin 28 is a beautiful wine at its level, and it's 13.5% alco. The 2002 Bin 28 is probably closer to 15% alc. In that percentage difference, for this mid-weight style of wine, lies the face of personality.

And I know, I know, I know that Smithy makes excellent wine at higher alc levels than this. But it has to be remembered that there's only one Smithy. Not everyone can make wine like him, as well as him, in the style of him.

Campbell.

Yep, Craig for the first and only time I have to agree with you.

Penfolds overhyped again this vintage, sorry site owner.
I tried the Bin 28 which is supposed to be the pick of the bunch and all I noticed is a formulaic, plummy oaky acidy wine worth exactly $15, ie $10 less than normal retail - this is par for the course for Penfold's myopic pricing strategy. Make a wine safe, boring, simple and $10 overpriced per price point.

Oh by the way, 5 nil and series whitewash, thanks for coming

guest8 wrote: Bin 28 which is supposed to be the pick of the bunch

I thought Bin 389 was comprehensively rated as the pick of the 02 Penfolds Bin reds? There is a lot of variation in the Bin 28 reviews, not much variation on the generally positive 389 reviews.

Campbell

Yes Highlander
In the end there can be but one.

Smithy

guest8 wrote:Penfolds overhyped again this vintage, sorry site owner.

Care to comment on exactly what they have said to overhype it?

I tried the Bin 28 which is supposed to be the pick of the bunch

I donÂ’t think I have seen to many people think it was the pick of the bunch, the majority have said that belongs to 389.

[quote] and all I noticed is a formulaic, plummy oaky acidy wine worth exactly $15, ie $10 less than normal retail - this is par for the course for Penfold's myopic pricing strategy. Make a wine safe, boring, simple and $10 overpriced per price point./quote]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I found juicy plum and lots of other black fruit flavours and balanced acid.

As to making the wine "safe, simple and boring" others may look on the other side of that coin and say they are "bang on style." PenfoldÂ’s is trying to make the wine consistent from year to year, something most major wineries (and many smaller ones) also endeavour to do. Even the Aberfeldy is remarkably consistent and hence safe.

I also though the Bin 28 was reasonable value and especially so at $20 on special.

And please donÂ’t mention the whitewash or you will get Craig started again and when we eventually lose, Craig will bang on about it for months.

Whitewash!!!

I posted this comment in another forum:

"Dr Cath was still in town so we headed to the local Greek restaurant after completing a tender submission (and getting rather tetchy with each other in the process, but that's another story!).
Penfolds 389 and 407 2001. Didn't help the tetchiness at all. As bland and featureless and passionless as wine can possibly get. Boring, plain, got us drunk. And that's all it did.
No cheers,
Brett"

That's been my experience with every Penfolds red I've tried (with the exception of a rather good 90 St Henri). TORB, agree that they are consistent, but that's not what I want when I pull the cork. And it's my money!
Cheers,
Brett

Anonymous wrote:Whitewash!!!

Penfolds 389 and 407 2001. Didn't help the tetchiness at all. As bland and featureless and passionless as wine can possibly get. Boring, plain, got us drunk. And that's all it did.
No cheers,
Brett"

That's been my experience with every Penfolds red I've tried (with the exception of a rather good 90 St Henri). TORB, agree that they are consistent, but that's not what I want when I pull the cork. And it's my money!
Cheers,
Brett

Brett, this thread started off on the 2002 releases, most will agree the 2001 vintage wasn't great, but probably not as bad as you found in your "tetchy" mood, just poor qpr. Having had many old Penfolds reds from most of the Bins in many vintages that were quite sublime to my taste buds, all I can say is thanks for clarifying your personal palate preferences, I'll keep that in mind when I read any of your future posts.

RB

Prefer Saltrams Mamre or a good HB

To expand what i meant...
Prefer Saltrams Marmre to 28 or 128
Prefer a top HB syrah to 389/407 (same price bracket eg Unison or Vidals Solar)

To me im not sure about the cellar potential of the 02 389. It is concentrated but to me there is no real fruit weight, the structure seems based on acids rather than tannins and i dont get cellar lights going off in my head when i try it. It may last ok, but i dont think it will ever blow the socks off anyone in the future.

Just my opinion. Its just a formula wine - built to impress but not built to seduce

C

Built to impress not seduce, I like that and understand what you mean.

Penfolds do seem a bit formula that's why I now buy small makers, guys like Kalleske, Dutschke, Glaymond, they are not only damn good wines but have a personality that somehow does more for you than just the wine.

Bear in mind that Bin 389 is still just a $35 wine. Perhaps a lot of people are looking for something that isn't meant to be there. Having said this, I don't think there are many other $35 wines on the market that can boast such a respectable history and significant ageing potential. Surely this has to count for something.

I tried a '95 Bin 389 around a month ago and it was gorgeous. Paid $50 for it at a restaurant and was worth every bit. Now, '95 was an average to bad year in the region (compared to others at the time right?) and here is a wine drinking superbly ten years later with legs to go another five? Perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to judge on these latest releases.

Craig,

I would never spent my money for Grange, St Henry, 707 and RWT.
However, I have stocked up the Bin28 ($19) and 389($33). They are excellent wines for Quality and Values.

I don't think you would fine many OZ and NZ wines could matched their qualities and the given prices.

Penfolds has a history, a reputation and an iconic name yes I totally agree and i have bought piles of penfolds before so dont think im dissing for the sake of it. I am (was) a fan. I have a number of 94 and 96s (my fav pennies vintages) even a couple 92s, 93s, 95s, 98s and even have bought the odd 01 bin 28.

As for value for money, i disagree this year. It doesnt show any of the attributes i look for in a shiraz (ie things shiraz does better than other varieites) - fruit weight, richness, texture, depth on the palate.

$35 for a Bin 389 2002 $35 say for a Mills Reef Elspeth Syrah 2002. Very comparable, and the elspeth shows some class which the 389 doesnt. Unison show piles more fruit weight and a gorgeous texture. The 389 in comparison lacks real fruit weight, the alcohol shows it lives on its acids.

707 I agree with you. The word is personality. The penfolds have the personality of a tax auditor.

Maximus "just a $35 wine". "Just" and "$35 Wine" doesnt tend to be in the same sentance too often with most people, especially those with a family and a mortgage. Sorry but I still expect a sensational wine for $35 and I still believe if you are careful and fussy that can still be achieved. Any fool can buy a good expensive wine.

sorry too long in the tooth at this game to agree with every marketing campaign. Penfolds will have to work harder to get my custom back

C.

Craig, mark today's date in your diary.

We'll have another chat in 15 years.

oh god i have enough trouble being right now let alone in 15 years time.

mind you by then i should have perfected the 100000 points system so at least i will be able to rate it accurately

C.

Love your work Craig.
We must catch up if you're ever down in Chch.
I'll bring the Oz reds, you bring the Kiwi reds.

yep ditto if you are ever up in auckland town.

im getting to the south island in January. Im gonna finally tour marlborough and nelson. The only touring of those regions ive ever done is every year for the last 5 years inside the exhibition hall at Greenlane expo centre for winenz.

will be a lot of fun

C

Craig(NZ). wrote:yep ditto if you are ever up in auckland town.

im getting to the south island in January. Im gonna finally tour marlborough and nelson. The only touring of those regions ive ever done is every year for the last 5 years inside the exhibition hall at Greenlane expo centre for winenz.

will be a lot of fun

C

You're a JAFA!

I spent a few days up at Marlborough back in August when I was on holidays from Brisbane. Herzogs was definitely the stand out for me. At the time, there was a lot of red rubbish getting around - including Pinots - and the Herzog wines were all class, such a higher grade wine. I met up with Hans and spent an entire morning with him in his winery. A sensational guy who is so passionate about wine. Jeff up at the Auckland Fine Wine Delivery Company put me onto Hans. I also visited La Strada but think they're a bit over rated, along with Cloudy Bay. Bought some Villa Maria PB Whites that I thought were exceptional value and was very impressed with Andrew Greenhough's wines up at Nelson.

I had a very rushed afternoon at Felton Road (ie. Felton Rd, Mt Difficulty and Olssens) but am yet to really explore Central Otago, which I'd love to do. Weekends over the next 12 months will have to suffice. Easter was looking good but I'll be tramping on Stewart Island instead!

Cheers,