The Auswine Forum

Been some questions asked about the long term cellaring potential of the 02 and 03 Wobbly Villa's.

Yes they are both 17% alcohol, and some writers are concerned they will blow out. (The 03 says 16 on the label but we didn't stretch the blend that far with our Rutherglen Durif and its actually 16.9%).

Without getting into semantics on whether big wines live, the natural preservatives in wine are, alcohol, tannin. and acid.

Its always been part of the Warrabilla style to have heaps of acid, we need it to keep the wines in balance. It also helps in making the SO2 work in protecting the wine from oxidation/ premature ageing. Ours would be the most acid big reds in the district. Its also a killer on Brett spoilage, so hopefully all our wines are squeaky clean.

I'd suggest that the 02 and 03 are going to live for a fair while yet. The airbag press and really ripe fruit give soft tannin structure that doesn't need time to soften the tannin structure. The 03 is a bit more firmer with the tannins, so I'd probably suggest that needs some time to be seen at its best.....Ditto the 02 Parola's Durif. 5 years should see its at what I would think will be a great age.

The 02 I'd drink younger, generous years sometimes open up relatively quickly. It will happily go 5 years but I'd drink it the next 3-4. The 98's did the same thing, why waste all that in your face young fresh fruit.

Having said that we love young fresh fruit, and really dislike tired old wines.

Cheers
Smithy

Smithy
I may be misinterpreting here, so apologies if I have. Do you have to add acid to get the acid levels up? If so, is there anything you do to ensure it melds well with the wine?

I heard of a Martinborough winemaker using 2nd set fruit to introduce "natural" acidity into his wines. Interesting idea, but not sure how it influences the wine.

regards

Ian

Thanks mate

I have a few bottles of both the 02 and 03 locked away (unfortunately 10,000+ km's from where I currently live).

My question re. ageing the wines stems from little experience in wines of this type, even though it does have the elements to age well. Also, I have tasted some old school Priorat wines from NE Spain (presumably Garnacha and Carinena) weighing in at 17%+ that really showed their alcohol. My guess is that these wines didn't start with the same quality fruit that the Warrabilla Durifs do.

BTW, does any of your wine make it to the UK?

Cheers
Phil Shorten

Phil
By chance I noticed a Magnum on the internet inwww.thecellardoor.co.uk/winelist.htm
last week. It was the 2001 Reserve Durif - perhaps the perfect wine/format to prove ageing ability?
Hope this helps
Ian

Smithy

As chance would have it we had a Warrabilla 2001 Reserve Durif tonight with a rare steak.
This was the 2nd bottle of a dozen and has opened up from the 1st bottle consumed 2 years ago.
What surprised me was the wounderful rich nose of dark cherries.The palete was well balanced (15% alc no heat showing here) soft powdery tannin finish.
We really enjoyed this wine.
My question is when do you see this vintage being at its best as the bottle has recommended cellaring 5 years.This seems very conservative to me even though it is a joy to drink now.

Regards
Mark

The 01 was the first of our really big Durifs. The alcohol was actually 16% (sorry about the label).

Glad you didn't see any heat.
It is starting to hits its straps as you say. We are very shy at recommending long cellaring, too many people use it as a marketing tool.

You know the stuff...."This is the biggest best red ever..live a 100 years..Yada yada yada".

Its easy to talk the talk ,but walking the walk is a bit harder. We think its nice to be quiet achievers. As you say its got years ahead of it.

Cheers

Smithy

Andrew you've spoken before about a certain prediliction among show judges for cooler climate styles and I think you have also expressed a few misgivings about the physiological ripeness of the fruit that went in to some of these wines.

Without intending to draw any parallels between your approach to making wine at Warrabilla and the views of a certain American wine critic, it was interesting to read Parker in his latest Australia report claiming that European styled reds produced in Austalia receive undue acclaim from Australian wine critics. Parker rightly or wrongly seems to think we can't "out-finesse" the Europeans...

Where do you see the domestic market heading in terms of the relative popularity of "bigger" reds versus others from places like Geelong, Beechworth, Adelaide Hills etc?

Paul,
I think you've raised some interesting issues.

So Parker thinks European style reds in Australia recieve undue acclaim from show judges etc.

I'd say likewise, which is partly due to our show system. The Chairman of Judges determines the style in his instructions to the panel judges. Its always been this way, and its his show, he invites the other judges, so you tend to see them liking a similar style. In a way you see 1 judge rather than several, and he has the last word if there is any controversy.

The height of fashion is French oaked Shiraz Viogners (which is a style I think will fall over in a few years....too much Viogner in too many wines.

Its a hell of a lot easier to make medium weight French oaked wines, than tub thumping biggies. Its harder to make big styles with balance and structure, that takes yields,soils,clones,winemaking and oak to be handled with finesse.

Beechworth, Gelong, Adelaide Hills etc all make good wine,Whether they do make great wine remains to be seen, given that we need to see how these wines age in the long term.

Personally I don't see light/medium weight wines surviving in the long term, but I don't like old wines where the fruit has died.

cheers

Smithy

Paul,
I think you've raised some interesting issues.

So Parker thinks European style reds in Australia recieve undue acclaim from show judges etc.

I'd say likewise, which is partly due to our show system. The Chairman of Judges determines the style in his instructions to the panel judges. Its always been this way, and its his show, he invites the other judges, so you tend to see them liking a similar style. In a way you see 1 judge rather than several, and he has the last word if there is any controversy.

The height of fashion is French oaked Shiraz Viogners (which is a style I think will fall over in a few years....too much Viogner in too many wines.

Its a hell of a lot easier to make medium weight French oaked wines, than tub thumping biggies. Its harder to make big styles with balance and structure, that takes yields,soils,clones,winemaking and oak to be handled with finesse.

Beechworth, Gelong, Adelaide Hills etc all make good wine,Whether they do make great wine remains to be seen, given that we need to see how these wines age in the long term.

Personally I don't see light/medium weight wines surviving in the long term, but I don't like old wines where the fruit has died.

cheers

Smithy

smithy wrote:
Beechworth, Gelong, Adelaide Hills etc all make good wine,Whether they do make great wine remains to be seen, given that we need to see how these wines age in the long term.

Why do we need to wait and see how they age before determining if the wines are great? I took from your argument that the inability for a wine to age should not be taken as meaning it is not great...

Sorry to nit pick but I just found it interesting...and I love the beechworth juice...

Guess I do mean that great wine is the stuff that ages.

I'm not denigrating Beechworth at all. I think that in the right years they will make some stunning big reds if anybody wants to do it.

I think Ben Clifton at Amulet has the right stuff to make some serious good red, and arguably Australia's best Pinot does come from there....The best Chardonnay definetly does (the Giaconda).

Its a question as to what you see as great. Great goes beyond what we think is yummy in the next 3-4 years, great wines will be sensational in 10.
Think top vintage Bordeaux like 86.


Cheers
Smithy

smithy wrote:I think Ben Clifton at Amulet has the right stuff to make some serious good red, and arguably Australia's best Pinot does come from there....

Tell me more Smithy - never heard of this guy.....

Amulet wines have been really, really ordinary until now. But they are on such a great site, virtually next door to giaconda except a bit down the hill (warmer), that they always have a lot of potential. Have not tasted the most recent releases, as was last there about 9 months ago (still ordinary then). Is the more recent wines better?

On the ageing of lighter wines: Craiglee is lighter, and it ages long term. Had a Clonakilla (shiraz-viognier, french oak) 94 the other day (11 years old) and it still looked young, and good, and like it had another 10 years in it. Bannockburn shiraz is generally light, but it does ten years easy. Many burgundies start off fairly light (in a fruit sense), but age long term. The idea that only big wines can age long term is a bit funny. Many big wines fall over fairly quickly, or never develop complexity, in the same way that many lighter wines do. Quality is the key, not whether it is big or small.

Amulet really is a sunning site,well drained granitic sands in an exposed site. Its got a lot of potential.

The Castagna is probably the best example of Shiraz/Viogner around at the moment, its just I'm not a fan of the style.
I must say I don't understand the Italian varieties being played with up in the hills.

There has been a Darwinian Natural selection of what works in Australia over the last 200 odd years, and now we're doing it all over again!

Make a good Shiraz first is my benchmark, a site no good for Shiraz is not good for much serious red (Unless you call Pinot serious red)

Cheers
Smithy

Smithy,

I love the Warrabilla wines and good to see recent press in WFM and AGT Wine. I'm always impressed with the gorgeous fruit's ability to hide the alcohol - sure you can tell it's a big wine but it doesn't have that burning feeling that other high alc wines do, nor is there ever a hint of "dead fruit" character - always fresh and pure.

Any thoughts on how the 04s are comparing to 02/03? I've got your pre-release offer for the 04s in front of me at the moment. Loved your 02 Reserve Durif and 02 Parolas Shiraz (the latter was tasted up against Noon Res Shiraz and Greenock Creek Roenfeldt Road about 2 years ago with Scott from Wineaway - it was on par with the RR and better than the Noon!). I haven't tried my 02 Parola Durif magnums yet!). The 03 Reserve Durif was clearly the standout of my 03 tasting pack.

Any thoughts on going to Stelvin? I've had a bit of a bad run with your wines (probably just coincedence) - three corked out of probably 12 or so that I've drunk so far. I know you did some Durif Shiraz blend last year under Stelvin - when are your big boys gonna be under it?

Keep up your good work!

Ged

Gerrard
The 04's are absolutely stunning, better than the 02's (which is saying something.)

Similar style , but bigger, cleaner, purer...with better oak.

As for corks, I tried to put some big reds under Stelvin (the 02 Reserve Shiraz/durif) bottling 1/2 under cork as a trial.
After 18 months the cork has better structure and mouthfeel.

25% cork taint......lets all send a big sarcastic thankyou to Dean Bannister of Sabate Corks! I'm sure the final % is way way less and this is a statistical anomaly, but it pi#$es me off something chronic! Torb's recent log of visiting SA wineries cellardoor came up with 8% corked ( and you'd think cellardoor staff smell them first!) Diferent makers, Different years, different corks everything!

We do of course stand behind our product (wish some cork suppliers did!)
and will replace TCA bottles. We are now using Delphin Reference 1 corks which is supposedly what the top end Barrossa gear is under.

I've threatened to give the mobile no of the cork suppliers and an explanation of their codes on the cork on my internet site. So you get a corked wine under a XYZ cork, you realize it has XYZ on the cork, and you ring him.....11 PM at a dinner patry is fine!

Cheers
Smithy

Talkin abot cork, TCA is one thing and porous cork is another. I've came across wineries has been using inferior cork for their flagship wines. My Hanisch'98 was tarnished by porous cork.

Is there specific grade for corks? Those porous ones(got more holes than my dart board) compared to the firm/solid lighter color ones?

Wow,now we're really talking. Soft cork, or porous cork is hardly talked about even by cork suppliers (who are more interested in getting low % of TCA)

The cosmetic look of a cork is also included in how corks are rated.

Basically corks are rated

Hand Select
refernce 1
Reference2
Reference3
Technical cork/Composite /Twin tops etc


For the natural cork this is based on % minor and major critical faults.
All corks have defects Holes in them, there is also the issue of cork density
which is measured but varies within set limits. It gets back to slow grown vs fast grown cork.

Hopefully Refernce1 Hand select are done to tighter variance, I try to use companies that don't hand select their REf1 corks as they reduce the nos of super premium corks.

Boy,theres a lot in cork selection.
I would also say that I am constantly dissapointed in the no of good producers bottling their best gear in dodgy corks. You see twin tops on supposedly good wines and miserable corks on stuff meant to age.

Its quite possible soft corks are linked to random oxidation/premature ageing!

Having said that I often don't think its the fault of the winery.
We get samples from all the best suppliers with the best reputations, and its still possible to get corks your'e not happy with.

my Amorim corks for my 03's..Nice
My 04's under Delphin...Lovely

Soft corks are another pet hate!

Cheers
Smithy

what do you think of Diam corks smithy? havent' seen any tainted or oxygen-affected bottles under them so far? have you used them, or considered them?

Campbell..

Campbell,

To be honest, I haven't noticed a single wine with a Diam cork. I'd love to see some, but have had bad experiences with long term storage under composite corks. There are glue issues besides the TCA issues (even if they work these out).

Love to see some 5 year old wines under DIAM. Hasanybody seen them?It could well be the future. Its pretty scary at the moment with closures, pick the wrong one for your style of wine and the customers can leave them on the shelf.

I've done it myself with the Petaluma 03 Hanlin Hill Riesling. I didn't want to buy it under cork!



Cheers
Smithy

Smithy,

Diam are composite but I've suddenly become interested in them because I've noticed a number of premium wines recently that have been sealed under them - they are unmistakable in appearance. I've probably opened 15 bottles under them, haven't had a single one corked, and seen no other issues - eg. oxidation. I believe that Diam have trials ongoing of wines that have been sealed under their cork for five or six years now, and apparently no issues with the glue or the cork have arisen ... I'm about to investigate further. I'm getting the feeling that for some wines, they might be a pretty good option.

Campbell.

Campbell

What wines have you tried with Diam Corks?

We are looking at trialing this closure in our wine, starting with an unwooded chard. I had heard that Kooyong, and Scorpo Pinot Gris, were bottled under Diam. Also Sabate have produced a closure with zero oxygen permeability for sparkling wines and Moet et Chandon have ordered it for their NV.

There is an excellent article in the 2005 Tech issue of Grapegrower and Winemaker, talking about sulphide problems with screwcaps. Of course this has been explored elsewhere and can be resolved to some degree by perfectionist winemaking. However, I have heard of even the odd bottle of Grosset having reduced characters. Winemakers in NZ have had similar probs. So screwcaps do not seem to be the ultimate closure that we all hoped they would be. Furthermore some critics have said they do not want their aged wine to be fresh and vibrant as new. They want the wines to have developed and find screwcapped wines don't deliver in the same way as a cork does. Maybe screwcapping should be confined to drink young styles and corks to wines for ageing?

Anyway, back to the article above. The author says that corks provide minute amounts of oxygen to a wine, which basically eliminates reduced characters. Of course one still has to make sure that the wine is not sulphidic before bottling. The author maintains, however, that even doing all this one can still get reduced characters in a wine post bottling. So a closure that allows minute amounts of O2 in will be a better answer than one that does not. This however raises the spectre of TCA and random oxidation of wines by using cork. Sabate say their Diam cork has below threshold levels of TCA and consistent levels of O2 permeability due to its manufacturing process. Furthermore they have trial work which is now 5 years old which shows no off flavours due to the breakdown of bonding material, the wines have aged similar to cork, there is no reduced characters, no TCA etc etc. It seems the only neg is that the cork bounces back pretty quick after extraction which makes it hard to get back in the bottle.

Any thoughts on the above?

The Hanging Rock Heathcote Shiraz 2002 I opened last week has a Diam cork, I think, a fine, firm, smooth agglomerate with a little stylised logo on the side near one end.

Hi Smithy,

We (Fox Gordon Wines) have switched over the Diam corks for our 03 reds. At this stage, (touch wood) we have not had a corked bottle. We used hand select in the 02s.

One of the issues however (from a marketing perspective) is the look of the cork.

Also, Emma Nicols from Oddbins has a real dislike of them. This almost brings it to a point whereby we bottle the UK allocation under Ref 1 and the rest under Diam.

Cheers
David

A couple of points you make Andrew that I would take issue with.

Smithy wrote:

Parker thinks European style reds in Australia recieve undue acclaim from show judges etc.

I'd say likewise, which is partly due to our show system. The Chairman of Judges determines the style in his instructions to the panel judges. Its always been this way, and its his show, he invites the other judges, so you tend to see them liking a similar style. In a way you see 1 judge rather than several, and he has the last word if there is any controversy

.
If I take one show at random, say last year's National Show, the golds for 2003 Shiraz were for Yering Station and Shottesbrook (one warm climate, one cool climate) and 2002 Shiraz golds were awarded to Grant Burge Meshach, Seppelt St Peters, Jim Barry McRae Wood and Saltram No. 1.

Probably less European styles than Oz styles - I think the comment reflects a perception rather than reality.

There is an excellent article in the 2005 Tech issue of Grapegrower and Winemaker, talking about sulphide problems with screwcaps. Of course this has been explored elsewhere and can be resolved to some degree by perfectionist winemaking. However, I have heard of even the odd bottle of Grosset having reduced characters. Winemakers in NZ have had similar probs. So screwcaps do not seem to be the ultimate closure that we all hoped they would be

I opened a 2001 Palliser Estate Pinot on the weekend. Quite rubbery and reduced for about 5 minutes, then blew off completely, as it usually does. This was under cork. Can I therefore say screwcap is the only seal that has problems with sulphide - of course not - as you know it's all to do with faulty winemaking. Let's not shift the blame to the seal.

ChrisH wrote:I opened a 2001 Palliser Estate Pinot on the weekend. Quite rubbery and reduced for about 5 minutes, then blew off completely... Can I therefore say screwcap is the only seal that has problems with sulphide - of course not - as you know it's all to do with faulty winemaking...

But, was it a sulphide problem, bottle stink or something else????

Reduced - sulphide, rubbery, H2S. Breathed off - not mercaptan. Would have thought the term bottle stink was usually reserved for older wines.

Hi Chris,

Interesting you should say that about bottle stink; recently I have found it in a number of younger wines and normally it has blown off fairly quickly.

As far as some of those other reductive smells you mention, I for one sometimes have difficulty in trying to quantify the exact cause/problem with some of these chracters. They are not always easy to quantify.