The Auswine Forum

I happened upon a wine site in USA that is run by Berry Bros & Rudd, probably the USA equivalent to Gavin's site. They have a vintage chart for the world which I was most interested in from an Aus and NZ perspective. To my amazement, disappointment then despair I realised that they did not rate one Aus or NZ vintage in the last 25 years as outstanding, not even '80, '90, '96 or '98 which we rank as some of our very finest. Sure the chart does not differentiate b/w red or white or wine regions but it is all relative when every country is rated the same way.

Harking back to comments made by Brian Prosser recently where he mused that the majority of our premium wines are not even given the privilege of making the leading world restaurant wine lists I began to wonder if there was something in his concerns about our export market after all. Is Jacobs Creek and Yellowtail how we are viewed by overseas drinkers? If they don't rate our premiums, why not? Granted most of our reds style is much more in your face than most Northern Hemisphere wines, but is that the problem, or is there something I am missing?

How far is Aus and NZ premium wine off the world benchmark? A rhetorical question I know but I assume the people making these charts have some expertise and are not just giving us short shrift because we beat them in the America's Cup.

Colin

P.S. The Berry Bros & Rudd rate '83 poorly, Hmmmm, maybe they haven't forgiven us.

Apologies to Brian Croser, mi misteak.

Reality is whoever wrote it probably knows didly squat about nz and aussie wines IN COMPARISON to say USA or France or whatever.

Same feelings occur with me when I look at some vintage ratings for Hawkes Bay from some Australian books. As I have toured the bay extensively every year for about the last 10 years at least once a year, been to wine nz every year for the last 5 years, been to private tastings, cellared the stuff myself for years etc etc, I probably have a better idea as to vintage quality for the Hawkes Bay than most international wine writers.

However ask me about the Napa Valley, Oregon or New York and I wouldnt have the slightest Clue. Probably only tried 2 dozen American wines in my life!! Ask me about the barossa and i would have a general idea only.

You cant be an expert on everything is what im trying to say. Some try to be and the gaps and holes sure show.

For what it is worth my Hawkes Bay /10 ratings for bdx red

1990 7.5
1991 9
1992 5
1993 3
1994 6
1995 8
1996 7
1997 5.5
1998 10
1999 7
2000 8.5
2001 6.5
2002 7.5
2003 looks about a 4-5 at this stage
2004 All reports point toward a 8-9 (hope so)

God Bless

C.

FYI, Berry Bros & Rudd is a UK-based wine merchant based at St James' Place next to Buckingham Palace (their warehouse and most of their staff are based out in Basingstoke). They have been around for a few hundred years and supplied wines to the throne. Apparently underground tunnels run from the cellars through to the Palace!

BBR's strength is the "traditional" regions of Bordeaux, Burgundy and Port, though they have a pretty good Rhone, southern France, Spanish and Italian list. Australian wines occupy a small position on its list. British consumers wanting to buy premium Australian wine or seeking advice on Australian vintages would either visit a website such as this one, read Halliday or Johnson or talk to a UK-based retailer with a strong Australian focus such as Noel Young.

You should also be aware that in the UK and US market, Australian wines are but one of many wines available to the consumer, and have really only emerged in the past 10-15 years. People are only starting to understand that vintages vary across the country, and about the ageability of some of these wines. While Australian wine is now #1 in UK off-trade sales, this is largely due to sales of branded commercial wine, not premium wines.

Hope this is of use!

Cheers
Phil (Shorten)

Living in New York, I would think that most decent wine stores (as distinct from the local bottlo's) have less than 5% of their total stock in Aussie labels.

There are two reasons:-

1. The cheap stuff sells easily enough, but there are heaps of comparatively priced labels from Sth America and Sth Africa, so there is no real need to stock huge amounts from Oz;

2. The high end Oz labels the market craves are made in such a limited supply, they are sold out as soon as they are Parkerised or WS-ised. Then, if there are any decent wines left, they are priced at such a level that the French, German and Italians labels offer better VFM.

It is a two edged sword, and I am not sure it will change in a hurry, especially with the recent appreciation of the AUD.

Mike

Mike

1. The Aus $ should work in the favour for our local product given the exchange rate at the moment, around $1.32 US for every Aus $1.

2. Our prouction numbers are modest compared to o/s at the premium end so that makes sense.

3. The VFM comment is what I would like to understand better. Maybe we suffer from having such a low profile compared to France, Italy and USA which creates a tangible difference in the buyers minds when considering Aus premium wines.

Colin

The Australian dollar is strong versus the US dollar at the moment which is most certainly not helping our wine exporters

Hi Colin

Three other considerations which I believe make a substantial influence on the old worlds' view of Australian wine is:-

1/ They were weaned on insipid French plonk from birth, creating a national 'cellar palate', more towards the drier end. (A bit like the differing tolerances towards sweetness in foods eg: the Americans are brought up on sweet jams, and have you ever shared your vegemite with an American? The facial expressions are priceless!).
Peynaud covers a similar theory with acid between French and German tasters in his 'The Taste of Wine'

2/ It is just downright too 'riské', I think a lot of them are afraid of what their peers would say if one of them stood up and declared that Australia makes great premium wine, equal to that of France. The fear of ostracisation must be overwhelming in the English psyche.

3/ They are by nature very conservative, and without Australia having a century or so of track records of longevity, they still need time to 'make sure'.


I had an impromptu tasting with several educators from the WSET last year when I was in London. It was mid-morning and the wines were left over from a small tasting the previous night. In the line up were 12 French wines of varying quality ie 5th growth to 1st growth. At the end of the line was one Leasingham Classic Clare Cab Sav (recent vintage but can't remember which).
After tasting through the French boot polish, and being given a rough idea regarding the price (which varied from £12-£120), I remember thinking that I would take the Classic Clare anyday!

While I am at it, during a winemaking stint in Languedoc in 1999, I had the chef de cave and several other winemakers from the area at my place for some tastings etc (everyone bring a long a bottle or two sort of thing).

At the end of the night, I was still in need of some really good fruit characters, so I went and grabbed a bottle of the 1996 Frank Potts which I was saving for another tasting. When I opened it, the smell of fruit absolutely filled the room and you could see the amasement on everyones eyes.
I passed the first glass to the French winemaker beside me, who proceeded to stick his big honk into the glass and sniff for all he was worth. The fruit was so strong, that it sent him reeling backwards off his stool and onto the floor. Raucus laughter filled the room.
(I am not going to mention that he had probably had a few too many and the stool was less than sturdy).

Seriously though, that was a very significant bottle of wine for most of the French winemakers in that room, I am sure that they are still trying desprately to emulate those characters in their wines today.

To say the least, they were in awe, and had they not experienced it for themselves, they would not have believed those aromas possible!

One more thing to add, I think the English concentrate on the texture of a wine with little regard to the aromatic profile of a wine.

Glen wrote:One more thing to add, I think the English concentrate on the texture of a wine with little regard to the aromatic profile of a wine.

Yes...quite obviously why Margaux and Cheval Blanc are such local favourites...

GW

Glen wrote:One more thing to add, I think the English concentrate on the texture of a wine with little regard to the aromatic profile of a wine.

Interesting comment. I had occasion recently to test The Christie’s – Sunday Times Wine Club Tasting Chart developed by Hugh Johnson and Michael Broadbent. It was copyrighted in 1975 and is part of Broadbent’s little book on Wine tasting. Essentially it allows you to quickly underline a number of characteristics related to SIGHT, SMELL and TASTE. The interesting point is that 12 descriptors are listed under SMELL while 24 are listed under TASTE. Clearly what they are trying to distinguish is ortho-nasal versus retro-nasal (i.e. what you smell when you first nose the wine versus breathing out through the nose after having wine in the mouth). But what is most interesting is that many of the TASTE terms are a mix of taste and smell descriptors (e.g. apply, bitter, burning, caramel, etc). Admittedly its 1975, but its very confusing. No wonder they are confused about what dirt tastes like. As much as I respect Broadbent I hope the Poms aren’t still locked into this system.

Mike

Glen wrote:
2/ It is just downright too 'riské', I think a lot of them are afraid of what their peers would say if one of them stood up and declared that Australia makes great premium wine, equal to that of France. The fear of ostracisation must be overwhelming in the English psyche.

!

Glen,

I trust your analysis focus's on lower end french wine the average english person might drink...

Australia cant possibly compete with the grand cru's of burgundy, premier crus of bordeaux or single vineyard....in that league aussie wines are clearly not the equal of france. Sub $50, maybe.

Adam wrote:Australia cant possibly compete with the grand cru's of burgundy, premier crus of bordeaux or single vineyard....in that league aussie wines are clearly not the equal of france. Sub $50, maybe.

Adam,

I have had a more than my share of single vineyard, premier crus (that have been bloody expensive by comparison to Oz wines) that how should I put this gently, have been crap. Sure, some of them have been bloody fantastic but just because it's grand cru or premier cru does not mean it will be good.

Im not trying to imply that all 1er Bdx, grand burgundies etc are always great, what I am implying is that top flight aussie does not unfortunately compete with top flight French., also I have had my share of let downs, but when they get it right, boy do they really get it right....the wines can almost bring you to tears, I have never experienced that with an Aussie wine.

At a top flight level, eg DRC, Leroy, Margaux, Haut Brion, Petrus, Lafleur, Le Pin, Latour, Lafite, Guigal La La's, Bonneau, Pegau Premiums, Rostaing, Chave etc etc etc the aussies unfortunately just dont quite compete.

Just one mans opinion...I would be heart broken if you could honestly sit infront of a 1990 Cheval Blanc, 1982 Latour, 1989 La Mission Haut Brion and say they were crap...

Glen wrote:One more thing to add, I think the English concentrate on the texture of a wine with little regard to the aromatic profile of a wine.

No I don't! But people called Glen always make sweeping generalisations

However I would agree that a large number of senior wine commentators in the UK remain focussed on the old world, whilst the market itself has become much more diverse. For the old guard, this is where they built their expertise and reputations, so many would find it tough to adapt to the significant changes to the wine market in UK. Over time, I expect this to change as new writers come through, but probably not in Decanter which is a really poor excuse for a wine mag these days.

Ian

Some thoughts on the threads.

Keith wrote

The Australian dollar is strong versus the US dollar at the moment which is most certainly not helping our wine exporters

I would have thought an exchange rate of .76 would have been favourable for our market, if it isn't that suggests that price is a major factor in o/s markets rather than style or quality.

Adam wrote

Australia cant possibly compete with the grand cru's of burgundy, premier crus of bordeaux or single vineyard....in that league aussie wines are clearly not the equal of france. Sub $50, maybe.

Adam, Give me the name and vintage of a French red wine in the $50 range I could try against a commensurate Aus wine for my own benefit.

Ian wrote

However I would agree that a large number of senior wine commentators in the UK remain focussed on the old world, whilst the market itself has become much more diverse. For the old guard, this is where they built their expertise and reputations, so many would find it tough to adapt to the significant changes to the wine market in UK.

History and culture are difficult to change and maybe this is the biggest hurdle the Aus & NZ wine industry is up against, style and taste are subjective when it is all set and dried, what is better or best is mostly measured on established traditions that are firmly set in stone, or should I say oak. Terminology and mystique of wines made in vineyards established in ancient times by industrious farmers is appealing to the buyer and clearly has a strong pursuasive element. For example a news story on TV last night showed a historic wine village in France where an annual oath is taken to preserve the wine making tradition. This village and its annual ceremony has received world heritage listing, that is a powerful symbol and only serves to add to the allure of wines from this region and France.

Phil wrote
[/quote]FYI, Berry Bros & Rudd is a UK-based wine merchant based at St James' Place next to Buckingham Palace

Thanks for the correction Phil, however the Poms haven't won the ashes for decades, maybe that's the hang up with the wine establishmet over there.

Cheers

Colin

Colin

Some over-optimistic souls here think they have a good chance of winning the Ashes back this year!

As to French wines, there are excellent wines made at a broad range of pricepoints, from £6 to £600. Few can argue that the vast majority of the very very best wines in the world are French. However, most of these wines are priced beyond the reach of ordinary souls like you and I.

That said, some French producers in the south are making huge gains and producing some superlative wines from Grenache, Syrah, Mourvedre, Carignan (reds) and Rolle, Grenache Blanc, Rousanne, Marsanne, Chenin Blanc (whites). The reds, in particular, have the structure, fruit intensity and power to go toe to toe with big Aussie reds. With prices capping out at £25, they are generally good value (at this point in time).

There may be some differences between British, Australian and American drinkers, but it is a gross (and incorrect) generalisation to stereotype the British palate as liking lean French wines. Just look at the way ordinary punters have taken to the likes of Jacobs Creek, Hardy's Stamp Series and Lindemans Bin Range. I also know a good number of Brits who like larger framed Australian wines.

As Brian Croser suggests, and with some good reason, the challenge is for Australia to promote its premium wines. While Australian wine has reaped significant success in the UK in the past 20 years, this is largely through the sale of inexpensive branded commercial wines. Australian wines do not feature prominently on restaurant wine lists, and people are yet to be convinced about the wine's ageability.

For mine, Australian wine has reached an interesting cross roads in the UK. I doubt that some of the wines I mentioned (all mass produced fruit forward wines, made from irrigated fruit cropped at relatively high yields, oak chipped etc etc) will go the way of Liebfraumilch (try selling German wine in the UK nowadays!), but it will not be easy for Australia to maintain its market leadership position for its commercial branded wines and to wean consumers on to the premium wines. Complicating the matter is the weak US dollar, quality improvements and more savvy marketing by producers in competing countries. Add this to the fact that some British wine writers are not fully convinced of ther merits of some Australian wines.

The UK market is the world's most competitive consumer marketplace for wine. Australian wines are but one option available to the consumer when visiting their local supermarket, independent merchant or high street chain. To date, the commercial brands have succeeded in building brand loyalty in the keenly priced £5-£7 pricepoint (though one increasingly sees the Australian brands being discounted, which does little to maintain brand equity). Above £7 and more particularly above £10 it is entirely different ball game. Australia's competitive advantages of sweet ripe fruit and smart marketing and packaging are diminished. Customers are more wine savvy and more demanding. They better understand what the world of wine has to offer. They read wine magazines and newspaper columns. The challenge is for Australia to increase its penetration in the £10+ pricepoint as this will determine the long term success of Australian wine in the UK market. As history shows, British consumers have been quick to adopt to new products, but can change just as quickly.

In this context, articles such as the recent one in Decanter are useful in demonstrating that Australia is more than just cheap fruity Shiraz/Chardonnay and powerhouse alcoholic reds from the Barossa Valley and McLaren Vale. Australian wine lovers may throw their hands up in the air on reading some of these articles as they may not capture fully what is going on here and now, but one needs to understand that it takes time to build product knowledge and awareness.

Well, best end it there.

Cheers
Phil

Colin
I don't understand why you think that a exchange rate of .76 is favourable for our exporters. The Australian dollar it at present strong against the US dollar which means that either the exporter pushes up US$ prices or receives less A$ for their sales. For most exporters it is the latter which they have to settle for. The major growth of wine exports occurred with exchange rates more in the rage of .55 - .65.

As I see it at present Australian wine exports to the US consist more or less of two types of wine. The first type is the commercial class. Price is a key factor with these wines. The second type is the "Parkerised" top end wine for which price is probably not much of a factor. These wines would represent a tiny fraction of Australian wine sales in the US though.

At the top level of Australian wine - the great gifts to the world - IMO there is

Grange
Rutherglen Fortifieds
Old Hunter Semillon
The odd classic old Hunter Shiraz - perhaps Barossa.

Some old Coonawarra Cab perhaps

daylight

the rest.

At the very top end France is streets ahead. People who don't like hearing this should get out more (although we all have different tastes). Australia makes great Australian wines. No doubt. For prices under $100 Australian wines are standout for quality and consistency. Some styles are unique and very Australian - e.g. Barossa and Hunter Shiraz. But at the very top end....not too many there (Not had a 40 year old Run Rig yet...it may well do it though. Grange has). I agree with Croser we need to make more "very bloody special" wines.

GW

Gary W wrote:

At the very top end France is streets ahead. People who don't like hearing this should get out more


GW

I concur.

Gary wrote

At the top level of Australian wine - the great gifts to the world - IMO there is

Rutherglen Fortifieds

Now there is something I can relate to, some of the best fortifieds to be found, and at reasonable prices.

As for premium reds I have to admit the arguments put forward by the French protagonists are compelling. History, terroir, time, environmental factors, experience and tradition obviously provide a significant part at the top end of the market where quality does matter a lot. Now back to that glass of Nottage Hill.

Colin

Gary W wrote:
At the very top end France is streets ahead. People who don't like hearing this should get out more (although we all have different tastes). ... I agree with Croser we need to make more "very bloody special" wines.
GW

here here!

Adam wrote:... top flight French... can almost bring you to tears,
, eg DRC, Leroy, Margaux, Haut Brion, Petrus, Lafleur, Le Pin,

I think if I'd forked out serious dough on a corked bottle of DRC, Le Pin or Petrus, I'd be crying too...

I think Glen has a point with the National Palate analogy.
It takes time for this to change. We all are influenced early on in our tasting experience by "experts" most of which tend toward the French Palate in the UK, and to a lesser extent US.

But it is changing and people such as Parker are awakening the collective awareness of the public to New world wines.
Now if I was a youngster in the UK or US faced with a tight budget, I am dam sure that the New World wines offer better. And with the blessing of a Parker review i am not going to shy away anymore from the new Worlds.
Suddenly we have a "first experience" beingh with OZ wine instead of some insipid French cheapie- Wellah! We have the national Palate starting to change

Anonymous wrote:I think Glen has a point with the National Palate analogy.
It takes time for this to change. We all are influenced early on in our tasting experience by "experts" most of which tend toward the French Palate in the UK, and to a lesser extent US.

But it is changing and people such as Parker are awakening the collective awareness of the public to New world wines.
Now if I was a youngster in the UK or US faced with a tight budget, I am dam sure that the New World wines offer better. And with the blessing of a Parker review i am not going to shy away anymore from the new Worlds.
Suddenly we have a "first experience" beingh with OZ wine instead of some insipid French cheapie- Wellah! We have the national Palate starting to change

Guest

The average punter selecting a bottle from the supermarket shelf wouldn't know Robert Parker from Adam. They have chosen to drink branded Australian wines for their forward fruit character (in many cases sweet fruit), consistency and clever marketing. A small proportion of these drinkers may well trade up to premium wine, but the vast majority will be comfortable drinking what's on discount or what they bought last time!

As to national palates, I think the notion is a gross (and incorrect) generalisation. Do all Aussies stand around the BBQ drinking Kangaroo Creek Shiraz? Do all Poms slurp back Chateau Nasty with their Roast Beef? Do all Americans suck back their 99 point ultra-boutique $200 a bottle Californian Cabernet or Aussie Shiraz while watching the Superbowl? A few drinkers may fit these descriptions, but the marketplace is a lot more complex and dynamic.

I have spoken to consumers in the UK, some of whom drink Australian wines regularly, and their comments have been that, with Australian wine, "you know what you're getting" and that they "deliver consistency". This is in the £7-£8 pricepoint.

Cheers
Phil

Whoah up!
Aussie wines don't compete with the best Froggie wines! Who said that!

While I do concede our sparklings are not Champagne (they're not grown on Chalk for a start) to have the big cultural cringe thing going is beside un- Australian,its stupid.
Aussie wines at the top level are cleaner, bigger, and better balanced. What is the top level is arguable---its often not what we're led to believe.
These are my best

Best Chardonnay---- Giaconda
Best Shiraz---- Booths Taminick
Best Durif---- (I have a cellar palate---Warrabilla
Best Cabernet----(it wasn't the 99 Margaux thats for sure---its Bretty as)

Anonymous wrote:Now if I was a youngster in the UK or US faced with a tight budget, I am dam sure that the New World wines offer better. And with the blessing of a Parker review i am not going to shy away anymore from the new Worlds.
Suddenly we have a "first experience" being with OZ wine instead of some insipid French cheapie- Wellah! We have the national Palate starting to change

For me, and I guess a lot of others in the late 1980's and 1990's, the first real taste of fine wine came through Oddbins. They were very good at bringing a variety of wine to the high street and at a broad range of prices. Tasting Grange at one of their tastings was indoubtedly the real start of my interest.

So many of these people are now wine enthusiasts & there is on the whole a more balanced view of the wine world. Once the next generation of wine writers eases the likes of Johnson, Spurrier, Broadbent et al out of the limelight, we should encounter broader palate preferences.

Ian

The french have it over Australia in the top flight pinots, chardonnays and champagne. The quantity of these top flight wines are miniscule however, and the quality quickly drops off.

The unreliability is what kills the french off, you just cannot depend on buying a wine in france and it being satisfactory. They have a real problem meeting the quality price point that australia has.

The way I think of it is this. If yoy had to draw a wine blind from a box, and bet your life on it being drinkable, ie sound wine, no offensive flavours etc, I would always want that box to be either australian or kiwi, very few other countries can basically guarantee that the vast majority of the wine produced is sound and inoffensive. I am not talking about classed growth bordeaux or premier cru burgundy, I am talking about basic drinking wine for everyday consumption.


cheers

marsalla wrote:The french have it over Australia in the top flight pinots, chardonnays and champagne. The quantity of these top flight wines are miniscule however, and the quality quickly drops off.

The unreliability is what kills the french off, you just cannot depend on buying a wine in france and it being satisfactory. They have a real problem meeting the quality price point that australia has.

The way I think of it is this. If yoy had to draw a wine blind from a box, and bet your life on it being drinkable, ie sound wine, no offensive flavours etc, I would always want that box to be either australian or kiwi, very few other countries can basically guarantee that the vast majority of the wine produced is sound and inoffensive. I am not talking about classed growth bordeaux or premier cru burgundy, I am talking about basic drinking wine for everyday consumption.


cheers

Marsalla
How do you feel Italian wines rate in comparison? For me there are some wonderful wines, some of which are genuine bargains*, however the risk factor seems to be quite massive, with some very expensive wines being very disappointing.
Ian

* Including recently a couple of Piemontese Nebbiolo wines we had recently (1989 Boca & 1997 Spanna) for £10 ~ €15 ~ Aus$25 each. Both great wines & exceptional value.