The Auswine Forum

I'm relatively new to this forum and I've browsed the one at Winestar as well and have read numerous comments about this topic all saying that the wines from the big companies are boring.

Yet on both forums Seppelt Chalambar, Victoria and St Peters Shiraz have been some of the most highly regarded wines by the users. Chalambar and St Peters virtually quinella'd the Winestar wine of the year vote (if you include both vintages of St Peters). And all 3 are great value at their price points. Yet Seppelt is in the stable of one of the most maligned big companies on these 2 forums.

I also note in Ric and Brian's purchasing lists a healthy representation from Leasingham, Penfolds, Yalumba, Houghton, Petaluma. All from relatively big companies. (Sorry to single you two out but you had the most easily available info) While I acknowledge there are many more small producers in your lists you haven't ignored the big companies.

Perhaps rather than the big companies not producing interesting wines any more all everyone craves is variety.

I'm also sure if you asked Torbreck or Balnaves or Wendouree or Fox Creek to produce 20 different wines then there would be 50% or more of those 20 that didn't interest you there either.

I don't mean this to be an attack on anyone, I hope it doesn't read that way. I just wonder if people are explaining what they mean accurately.

I agree that variety is the spice of life but you don't have to deride the big company's products, embrace them all.

BTW - What about McWilliams, Tyrrells and DeBortoli. Are they lumped in with "the big boys" because I think they produce some of the best wines (for both value and quality) in the country.

Interesting question, out of 599 bottles purchased last year, the following list are the details of wines that have come from the two biggest boys.

Southcorp
Devils Lair 2001 Cabernet Sauvignon x 6
Penfold 2001 RWT x 5
Seppelt 1993 Show Sparkling x 6
Seppelt DP 63 x 12
(4.8% of total purchases)

Hardy Wine Co
Gladstone 1999 Cabernet x 6
Gladstone 2000 Shiraz x 6
Leasingham Classic Clare 1995 Sparkling Shiraz x 12
(4% of total purchases)

As you can see, in reality the percentage purchase of both Hardy and Southcorp wines is very low (8.8% of total purchases) and very specialised with 5% of total purchases being either fortified or Sparkling Shiraz, which leaves 3.8% which is not exactly high when you consider that between Southcorp and Hardy they probably make in excess of 50% of bottled wine in Australia.

In my case, there is certainly a healthy amount of Yalumba wine with 36 bottles purchased. In most years there is also normally a fairly healthy quantity of Orlando Wyndham wines, but this year seemed to be an off year for that company. Yalumba is not a huge company, but they certainly have some new and very interesting labels, like their Handpicked Series which is the personal project of Robert Hill Smith. Orlando's range when you consider they other wineries like Morris and Richmond Grove, is also diverse and interesting. The biggest thing going for the Orlando range, is their top wines, like St Hugo, Jacaranda, Lawson and Centenary Hill are very fairly priced, unlike Eileen Hardy, Thomas Hardy, Jack Man, Bin 707, Magill Estate, RWT and now even St Henri. The pricing of those top wines is also a major consideration in purchasing decisions. Why spend $75 (on special) for a bottle of Eileen when you can purchase a bottle of Lawson for $44 (on special) which is just as good if not better.

The reason Seppelt is so well respected is because the quality of the wines are continually improving and they are over-delivering in terms of value.

No problems, if we publish stuff, you can quote it all you like.

I regard just about anything other than the top 5 or so as being "small", I read today that if Fosters and Southcorp were to merge that would be 40% of Australian wine production. Add Constellation, Orlando-Wyndham, McGuigan-Simeon and Casella and de Bortoli that takes care of the top 7 (minimum tonnage intake in 2003 was 62,000 for De Bortoli) and probably about 90% of Australian wine production. Mc William and Tyrrells don't appear in the top 22 producers as per stats in the 2004 Wine Industry Directory.

In 2004 I bought 15% by number of bottles from the top 7, with 3.6% from Southcorp and 4.6% from Beringer-Blass (Fosters).

You could argue that there is a medium group as well as small and that's very true, but compared to the biggies there is not a lot in it.

I do in fact have Producers graded Small, Medium, Large in the RB Database and for 2004 my buys were Small: 77.8%, Large 16.2%, Medium: 6% (for those quick at arithmetic the 1.2% difference is French Champagne, classified as Large). (FWIW in 2002 it was 25% Large, in 2001 it was 32.5% large and 1999 it was 39% Large).

To comment on some of your other points, it's always been the case that 80% or more of the big makers's wines have not been what I buy, and I buy (the ultimate test) only about 5% of what I taste from all makers. There are many wines from medium-small makers (some of whom have an astonishing array of wines, (eg d'Arenberg) that do not tempt me to buy either. Seppelt seems to be a bit of an anomaly in Southcorp, almost like an independent small maker, they seem to have been able to produce the goods and keep prices relatively in check so far (although St Peters has jumped in price a fair bit), I wonder what proportion of Southcorp product they account for? Probably pretty small.

In recent years the perception has developed that those which I used to buy regularly have gone up in price significantly and/or dropped in quality or if not in quality then in perceived qpr. This seems to have coincided with the advent of many high-quality small makers, some using premium grape sources that used to go to the majors, and increasing pressure on the second-tier (medium size) that in some cases has resulted in them releasing good wines at sharp prices.

It's more complex than that too, there are some brands from the majors that have not increased in price for years (or even reduced slightly), sometimes the quality has been maintained or even improved in good vintages. So, as the red wine glut bites producers and growers hard, it's the consumers that can pick and choose what they see to be the best wines for them at the price-points they buy at. For me, the interesting and exciting wines that I can afford are mostly being made by other than the top 7 large producers.

If the biggies can get their act together they will get more of my business again, for example, I'll be looking closely at 2002 Bin 389 after being very impressed by it at the NWS last November, a great return to form if that is what turns up in the shops.

I've more than a sneaking suspicion that I'm not alone in this change in buying pattern over the past few years, there have been a posts here and I've had a couple of emails from other people who have come to the same buying conclusions.

I think this is an interesting thread and my slant on this topic goes like this:

As ironic (or perhaps moronic) as this may sound, larger "corporate" style wine companies are not necesserily interested in providing the best wines to their customers. They are in fact more interested in provided the most profitable wines to the market place that their custmers will buy.

You can have two wines that both wholesale for $30, but one has a cost price to produce that is less than the other. The quality of the lower cost wine might also not be as good. The strategy teams gather, market the "bejebes" out of the lower cost wine and then put up the wholesale price of the other in an attempt to "scale profitablility" for the first wine and now earn a higher margin from the other.

By their very nature, corporations will push the profitability aspect of the wine far more than the quality. And perhaps fairly so, as the shareholders do not really care about the QPR of the wine that the company produces, they only care about profits.

On the other hand, smaller producers where the key person is a true lifelong wine lover, will most probably strive to produce the best wine that they can first, and then price it at a level acceptable to their customer base. (Customers who are often in contact with the winery and winemakers as well).

Forums such as this one do not represent the general public in any way. Most of the forumites are very passionate about their wine, they are in some circumstances extremely knowledgable of the industry and all the peripherals and it is almost a forum pre-requisite to try and find the best prices for wine from anywhere in Australia.

Mum and dad wine drinkers around the country may have 5 or 10 bottles of wine in a cupboard at best, and $25 pb is a lot, let alone $100 or $200 plus pb that some of the wine which is discussed on this forum. 98% of the population do not have a wine cellar either. So when corporates are strategising about the wine industry, its all about maximising the profits first and then the quality of the wine. So I don't think we should be suprised when the knowledgable people of this forum don't buy their wines in great quantity.

Having said all that, Southcorp did drop the price of the JR to $50 for the 1998 and 1999 vintages and I reckon that is damn good value and I bought plenty of it too......

there's so much good wine in oz RC.
i reckon the trio you mentioned are all very good companies for value and quality[concistency]. DeBortoli are a big fave of mine and a significant player production wise. the other two you mentioned a certainly not botique operations either. i loath snobbery whether it 'exclu$ive based mind-set' or reverse snobbery... ie: " i don't buy big company wines".

really, why adopt an attitude at all? its plain dumb all over.

i must admit, i do love discovering little gems though i think the bigger companies can more easily get their logistics down to a fine art.

i guess everyone likes to wax lyrical about those rare "holy grail" [truly great] wines. these are the ones that people obsess and gobsmack over, and they are also a matter of opinion and debate.

the last genuinely knockout wine i had was a Victorian - Lovegrove's of Cottles Bridge 1998 Cabernet Merlot [95-5%], early last year. They are a p-ant [tiny] concern but the stars sure lined up when i cracked that bottle. It had richness, glorious fruit and velvety power to burn. everyone who tried it went 'wow!'. the ultimate rap i think.

BTW - What about McWilliams, Tyrrells and DeBortoli. Are they lumped in with "the big boys" because I think they produce some of the best wines (for both value and quality) in the country.[/quote]

Ratty, good question and worth asking.

Gianna, Ric & Brian have covered it very well.

I think most people know I'm a huge supporter of small makers and spend a whole lot of my wine related time seeking them out. Have a read of my Barossa Tour notes and you'll see my enthusiasm for the wines of Glaymond, Kalleske and Kaesler on this occasion.

This enthusiasm is not misplaced, wines from these guys frequently rate highly in the blind tastings of my Blacktongues group. Conversely, when I ran wines like the 98 Penfolds Bin range against their peer class, they hardly registered on the scale despite the hype. Subsequent vintages have gone up in price and delivered less.

The corporates often deliver good QPR in the $20 and under range where their huge economies of scale come into play but Gianna put it nicely, these guys are about maximising profits for shareholders.

A huge number of punters still buy Penfolds Bin range and lower thinking they're getting quality because they can't tell any better. They're also the ones shopping at the two grocers outlets thinking they're getting great prices. They're also the ones who rave about the wines they get through their bank/department store/etc Wine Club, the clubs we all know are run by one of the big four producers and are dumping grounds for unknown labels.

Forumites by and large know their wines well, seek out new players, listen for tips from others and buy from independents including internet retailers like our own Auswine. We are likely to make purchases in the percentages typified by TORB & Red Bigot. My own cellar doesn't have a database but I can tell you my recent purchases have been Majella, Glaymond, Kalleske, Kaesler, Brick Kiln, Gibson, Greenock Creek, Viking, Kay Bros, Killikanoon, Rockford, Charles Melton, Villa Tinto, Torbreck, Noons, Tin Shed, Massena, Summerfield, Kurtz, Jasper Hill, Dutschke etc. Not a corporate amonst them although I'll be checking out the single vineyard Wynns soon and I'll look at the 2002 Penfolds with interest.

If you look through that list, most of those wines are outstanding quality and individualistic and at a price below or near to Bin 389 price.

Keep an eye on the forum and chase down some of these small maker gems.

didgidee wrote: i loath snobbery whether it 'exclu$ive based mind-set' or reverse snobbery... ie: " i don't buy big company wines".

really, why adopt an attitude at all? its plain dumb all over.

Attitude? Snobbery? Dumb? I'm sure you are not talking about anyone here!

I just buy wines I like and think are good value, I think that's a very good strategy, in fact the only sensible approach if you are buying to cellar and drink. It just so happens that at present most of the big makers are making very few wines that fit my assessment on that basis.

I see a lot of other people following the same strategy and I don't think any of them are dumb snobs with attitude.

There is no doubt that wineries like Seppelt, Devil's Lair and Coldstream Hills are making very good wine. I don't care if they are part of a big company.

I didn't see the poll on another forum, but just out of interest: did voters list the wines they loved and then results were tallied from there, or did the retailer list a set of wines (presumably based, to some extent, on the supliers he had good relations with) and voters had to pick from them? Huge difference in the eventual result if the latter was the case. This is a question, I did not see the original poll.

J2.

Ok, thanks for the tips, so the W* poll was based on sales. So if you thought Clonakilla or something that wasn't really offered on that site was the wine of the year, then you could not vote for it and had to vote for one of the wines on the list?

No problem with that. Just clarifying.

J2.

If you were a retailer running a poll, how would you do it Guest ? Who would you include, or would you leave it completely open ?

regards
Chris

Sheesh, logged in one minute, not the next.

regards
Chris

Sorry to create the topic and then desert the discussion. I have been reading the reponses but haven't had time to reply.

First, thanks to everyone who responded. Very interesting points about a) clarifying the % of wines purchased from the big boys (thanks RB & TORB) b) reminding me that the majority of consumers aren't looking at cellaring so c) wine companies are looking at profitability rather than qaulity.

I guess the question I am left with is have the wines from Penfolds, Wynns, etc declined in quality over the past 5-10 years or are they the same as they ever were allowing for vintage variations and you've all just developed more discerning palates? Have they just recently started making boring wines or have you (that's the collective "you") just begun to find them boring?

Ratcatcher wrote:I guess the question I am left with is have the wines from Penfolds, Wynns, etc declined in quality over the past 5-10 years or are they the same as they ever were allowing for vintage variations and you've all just developed more discerning palates? Have they just recently started making boring wines or have you (that's the collective "you") just begun to find them boring?

Hi Ratty,

The answer to that question falls into a couple of areas that I will touch on.

Firstly, there is no doubt that some of the Southcorp wines have been down graded in quality. For example, Tollana used to be a single vineyard wine, K Hill used to last and improve, Wynns Cab started a decline in after 94 and is still not as good as it used to be, the Lindemans Trio have been going down hill for some time whilst the recommended price goes up etc etc.

There has also been a conscious styalistic shift to earlier drinking wines so many of the wines are released as virtually "ready to drink" and will not benefit from cellaring, and most importantly, will not improve with time.

Some small brands like Devils Lair Cab and Seppelts (which are not exported) are on the improve.

ChrisH,

If I were a retailer, I would run a poll exactly as it was done. This is why I stated that there was nothing wrong with this.

What I would not do, however, is draw wider conclusions on what people acrtually think was the wine of the year. You agree?

Jeff2.

Jeff

What I would not do, however, is draw wider conclusions on what people acrtually think was the wine of the year. You agree?

I don't really have a great interest one way or the other - its of passing interest only to me as I have enough experience by now to make up my own mind as to what the best wines of the year were for me.

But I do think that if you are running a poll, then you need to limit it to a number of wines (not sure what the number is), otherwise it can defeat the purpose if the dispersion of votes becomes very wide. So what better way than list the "x" best selling wines in whatever category you have - the buying public have voted with their wallets to get that list. Logically you could take the best selling wine as the best wine of the year in the category, but that would take the fun out of it if people could not vote - and in the end a bit of fun and involvement of the forum members is one of the major objectives surely.

regards
Chris

It is only of passing interest to me too Chris.

And what is this notion, wine and wine forums are supposed to be fun?????? Hey????! You have lost me there

My only point is that not all wines are available on any site, so it is not even a case of people voting with their feet, it is a case of people voting with their feet within an, understandably, very limited range. *Nothing wrong with this*. Just making the point that this result is not remotely conclusive of the wider premium wine community's beliefs on the wine of the year, nor on whether or not people are swinging to or from the big companies.

Jeff2.

Hello

I have deleted a number of posts here.

I have done this as is my policy when posts start referring to people or personalities, not wines.

I hope I have

Removed the posts I should

Not missed any

Not removed posts I shouldn't.

Its an interesting and relevant topic, so I don't want to lock it.

I didn't even mind the links to Winestar Forum, its a big wide wine world out there, but please, let's keep personalities out of it.

FWIW when someone mentioned a Seppelts spokesperson, I thought they were alluding to O'Connor the wine maker?

Gavin Trott wrote:I have done this as is my policy when posts start referring to people or personalities, not wines.
(edit)
FWIW when someone mentioned a Seppelts spokesperson, I thought they were alluding to O'Connor the wine maker?

Yes, maybe.

If Brian could clear up the ambiguity above, it would (hopefully) be satifying both your policy and your thoughts.

Mark K

Mark K wrote:

Gavin Trott wrote:I have done this as is my policy when posts start referring to people or personalities, not wines.
(edit)
FWIW when someone mentioned a Seppelts spokesperson, I thought they were alluding to O'Connor the wine maker?

Yes, maybe.

If Brian could clear up the ambiguity above, it would (hopefully) be satifying both your policy and your thoughts.

Mark K

Fair point

Think I missed that one, its been deleted.

Sorry Brian, Murray and all those who had posts deleted.

Now, back to Big vs Small

Good work Gavin.
Winepros forum (IMO) died through being unmoderated. Your interventions are rare but well judged.
Ian

The reference to a Seppelt spokeperson was lost on me but obviously was undestood by others who know the personalities involved.

Just thought I'd add to my earlier comment on this thread that after a considerable time I've added a corporate wine to the cellar - 2002 Mt.Ida Shiraz which I've commented on in the weekly drinking reports. A great return to form for this label after five corporately butchered vintages!

On the whole, I still find interest in the corporations, but generally not at the high volume levels. Of their bargain basement wines, probably only Orlando's Jacobs Creek Riesling has got a nod of approval.

I've got a reasonable spread of Southcorp wines, though a complete absence of Rosemount wines is more due to never having tasted a Rosemount wine I've enjoyed (in over a dozen attempts!), rather than any great antipathy for them.

I guess Penfolds can seem "samey" because they have a distinctive house style - but there again so do some boutique wineries.

The axeing of the old Southcorp winemakers & the suspicion of a firm hand from the Rosemount Chief Winemaker (Phillip Shaw?) threw up some fears of wine by formula across the group. Maybe this has occurred, I've just not tried enough of the wines to see it yet.

At the moment there's still lots of variety (IMO) within the large groups, though if there's more M&A's then cuts will have to be made. If this creates more O'Leary Walkers et al, then maybe there is more gain than pain?

I'd be more worried about the supply chain though - it seems like the big boys in Australia have really pressed to control the market. In UK the supermarket chain Tesco's have a seriously large chunk & can't even be bothered to put vintage year on the website for their wines. In fact they've just been pulled up for advertising wines as trophy winners, where in fact an earlier wine had won the trophies/medals. All the more reason to support the likes of Gavin - especially if diversity is of interest.

Ian

Ian S wrote:
The axeing of the old Southcorp winemakers & the suspicion of a firm hand from the Rosemount Chief Winemaker (Phillip Shaw?) threw up some fears of wine by formula across the group. Maybe this has occurred, I've just not tried enough of the wines to see it yet.

The departure of both Duval and Falkenberg spoke volumes, and didn't bode well for the future wines of the group. I see the last Southcorp wines I bought (apart from a few 03 Leonays) were some 99 Riddochs and St Henris. Can't see myself buying anything else (perhaps Seppelt excepted) for a few years yet...

I'd be more worried about the supply chain though - it seems like the big boys in Australia have really pressed to control the market. In UK the supermarket chain Tesco's have a seriously large chunk & can't even be bothered to put vintage year on the website for their wines. In fact they've just been pulled up for advertising wines as trophy winners, where in fact an earlier wine had won the trophies/medals. All the more reason to support the likes of Gavin - especially if diversity is of interest.
Ian

Big supermarkets are in the FMCG business - they see wine the same way. For knowledgable buyers this is a disaster. It gets worse when brands try to cover both ends of the spectrum; Rawsons Retreat is clearly FMCG and vintage hardly matters, but RWT is a different animal. They both wear the Penfolds name, however, and the supermarkets (and the wine companies) will make a mess of things if they treat them the same. They'll finish with warehouses full of unsaleable stock to start with. And it'll serve them right...

cheers,
Graeme

I think this forum started with ann invitation to debate the propostition that big companies are making boring wine. My contention is that the big varieties make boring wine, and to the extent that the Aussie wine industry is moving beyond Chardonnay, Shiraz and Cabernet, there is some vitality in the wines on offer.

No doubt big corporate takeovers have some influence, and big business does not always use the brand assets that they acquire wisely. (eg Tollana, and the whole Sorthcorp/Rosemont fiasco) Remeber a couple Aussie high fliers have managed to go broke making beer!

Small to medium companies may have a bit of an advantage in managing innovation, but the big guys can do it to. Casella has the franchise to turn yellowtails into greenbacks but have embarked on a massive alternative varietal program. Brown Brothers are certainly innovative, but not too small.

A positive attitude to risk and innovation has always been a feature of Australian industry, although we are very good at knocking our own. The wine industry has succeded because it has embraced change.

Corporate structure rather than size is the determining factor. Can B. Blass leave T'Gallant alone to continue is leadership in Pinot Grogio and Viognier?

Let's not get distracted from the main game: finding wines we enjoy! Join in the fun, and seek out the differences. Leave the homogenous crap to the suits. The game has only just started in making great wines. Most, but not all, of the excitement will come from the small to mediums. Try a WORLD Inc, homogenate now and then just measure how far we have come.

Cheers

Red Bigot wrote:In recent years the perception has developed that those which I used to buy regularly have gone up in price significantly and/or dropped in quality or if not in quality then in perceived qpr. This seems to have coincided with the advent of many high-quality small makers, some using premium grape sources that used to go to the majors, and increasing pressure on the second-tier (medium size) that in some cases has resulted in them releasing good wines at sharp prices.

It's more complex than that too, there are some brands from the majors that have not increased in price for years (or even reduced slightly), sometimes the quality has been maintained or even improved in good vintages. So, as the red wine glut bites producers and growers hard, it's the consumers that can pick and choose what they see to be the best wines for them at the price-points they buy at. For me, the interesting and exciting wines that I can afford are mostly being made by other than the top 7 large producers.

If the biggies can get their act together they will get more of my business again, for example, I'll be looking closely at 2002 Bin 389 after being very impressed by it at the NWS last November, a great return to form if that is what turns up in the shops.

I've more than a sneaking suspicion that I'm not alone in this change in buying pattern over the past few years, there have been a posts here and I've had a couple of emails from other people who have come to the same buying conclusions.

I think after all this discussion these are the points I guess I was looking to draw out. Thanks Brian, this seems to some up the impression I had been forming over the past couple of weeks of reading posts.