The Auswine Forum

I've been noticing that wine under screwcap closure seems to need additional airing to begin to show its best. Sometimes this is next day type airing.

Has anyone else had the same experience/feeling? I'm trying to get clear in my mind if it's real or imagined, I of course believe it to be the former, or whether it's just the particular type of wines I've had this experince with.

707 wrote:I've been noticing that wine under screwcap closure seems to need additional airing to begin to show its best. Sometimes this is next day type airing.

Has anyone else had the same experience/feeling? I'm trying to get clear in my mind if it's real or imagined, I of course believe it to be the former, or whether it's just the particular type of wines I've had this experince with.

I have found the same. I think it real.

Adair

707 wrote:I've been noticing that wine under screwcap closure seems to need additional airing to begin to show its best. Sometimes this is next day type airing.

Has anyone else had the same experience/feeling? I'm trying to get clear in my mind if it's real or imagined, I of course believe it to be the former, or whether it's just the particular type of wines I've had this experince with.

Agreed. I thought I was imagining at first also but now decant all screwcapped reds without thinking. Many whites also need some time.

cheers
BA

I think it really depends on the wine. Some of the Grenache/Shiraz blends seem to sing straight away, even if they've just been bottled a couple of days. Same thing with Rieslings, some let rip immediately, and others need decanting as badly as a big red.

With some of the big fish going under screwies, quite a few have been closed and/or rather stinky, and a good flush of air seems to do the world of good to clean them up and get the juices flowing. Then again I seem to be decanting any big red I open at home lately anyway.

Cheers
Ian

Personally I find it extremely difficult to look at a wine straight after going to bottle, as the 'shock' (which in itself is something I can not scietifically explain) is very hard to either perceive or look through.

In terms of ROTE, the penetration of oxygen is less (due to the non-porous nature of the WAD) opposed to a cork, which is a semi porous medium, of which is variable due to the numerous grades available. However in saying that, the surface area in bottle which is exposed to oxygen is tiny. Consequently it may not actually be the ROTE enclosure which has caused the wine to be closed (for want of a better expression), but virtue of the acid/sulphur regime of the winemaker/winery pre-bottle.

Just a thought...

I think you're right Vinum, it does have something to do with the "headspace" gas in screwcaps.

I've taken to giving screwed bottles plenty of airing by pouring some off and shaking the bottle. That's ok for now as they're all young with no crust but might have to use something more genteel once they've aged a bit.

n4sir had a natty aerator funnel we used on Saturday night that would be ideal.

I think the difference in headspace is negligable between ROTE and cork - from memory the fill height differs as a function of the bottom of the stopper, at the end of the day its still around 13mm headspace. Remembering that most if not all bottles pre-filling will be dosed with a large enough volume of nitrogen that one could assume that until the bottled is sealed that it is relatively reductive (in state). Although no research springs to mind in terms of measuring the influx of oxygen through a cork. My thoughts are... even though there will be passage of oxygen through the porous medium, the surface area available for oxidative process is very small.

The issue of higher sulphurs is more of a pertinent feature, as higher free sulphur will mask aroma precursors, which will require aeration to bind to polymeric compounds or aldehydes or the like.

Anyway thats enough drivel from me, sorry to harp on...

vinum again wrote:The issue of higher sulphurs is more of a pertinent feature, as higher free sulphur will mask aroma precursors, which will require aeration to bind to polymeric compounds or aldehydes or the like.

I was fair knocked over by the sulphorous noses on the 2004 Tyrrells screwcapped Private Bin whites (not Vat 4, but certainly Vat 18, Vat 1, Vat 63, even Vat 47, though the oak masks the effect a little) at their Sydney tasting in September. Bruce Tyrrell reckoned the sulphur levels settle down within six months or so, irrespective of closure. It was, I'll admit, the first time I've tasted these wines so close to bottling, but I was surprised at how, well, undrinkable they were. Not that you'd expect to drink them for some time in any case...

cheers,
Graeme

Yep, sulphur sure does mask a lot and the predominance will dissipate with time - under any closure. However, to my knowledge higher sulphur regimes were employed initially under ROTE, hence why the the apparence and of sulphur dioxide and the loss of fruit character when comparing ROTE and cork.

A great example of sulphur and fantastic wine in any zind humbrecht wine, where free sulphurs at bottling will be anywhere from 60 to 100 mg/L.

The more tannin the more reduced charachter.
We did a trial on a biggish red, a 16% Shiraz/Durif, and bottled half under cork, half under screwcap (ROTE).
After 18 months we prefer the nose and the mouthfeel of the cork.

As such Warrabilla Reserves get the cork treatment, which seems a bit out of step with the market, but we genuinely believe for big tannic reds its the go.

As for some winemakers saying it costs the same... they lie or are using Dodgy Bros cheap and stained used corks!
It costs us 65 cents for a cork and capsule as opposed to 14 for the screwcap.

Call us old fashioned, but we like cork!
Cheers
Smithy

smithy1 wrote:The more tannin the more reduced charachter.
We did a trial on a biggish red, a 16% Shiraz/Durif, and bottled half under cork, half under screwcap (ROTE).
After 18 months we prefer the nose and the mouthfeel of the cork.

As such Warrabilla Reserves get the cork treatment, which seems a bit out of step with the market, but we genuinely believe for big tannic reds its the go.

And this is why the question of ROTE is not as clear cut for big and long term reds as many people may think. It is a vexing issue with many unanswered questions that will only be answered in the fullness of time. Is it a case of some wineries jumping in where angels fear to tread?

Adair wrote:

707 wrote:I've been noticing that wine under screwcap closure seems to need additional airing to begin to show its best. Sometimes this is next day type airing.

Has anyone else had the same experience/feeling? I'm trying to get clear in my mind if it's real or imagined, I of course believe it to be the former, or whether it's just the particular type of wines I've had this experince with.

I have found the same. I think it real.

Adair

Ditto for me.


Cheers

Jamie

Thanks guys, I think we all agree we need to stick to a slightly different opening and airing procedure with screws.

It will be interesting to watch the ageing process over the next few years, particularly as I'm getting my selections under screws whenever the option is available. I've taken the plunge so pissed off am I with TCA faulty bottles.

The comments about headspace, got me thinking... (run for your lives )

Is there more headspace in a screwcap, than a cork finished bottle? i.e the volume that the cork usually takes up? Or do we get corks worth of extra wine?

Had the first ever experience of a faulty screwcap (2002 Morts Block Riesling), which had lost a good 30-40ml. Fortunately checked it straight out of the box & got a refund. Will try the wine anyway (merchant is too far away to return the bottle), but assuming it will be shot. Worth doing if only out of academic interest.

Ian

The headspace in a ROTE should be a bit more than in a botle with a cork in it. Under a cork there should be 15mm of headspace. The wine expands about 1mm for every 1 deg C the wine reaches over the bottling temp. When it runs out of room it pushes the cork and you get leak.
Hydraulics...you can't compress a liquid.

The cork itself is hopefully 45mm long plus some compression plus 15 mm = 60mm. The trouble is with a lot of homebottlings is you compress 60 mm of air down to 15 mm headspace and you get a positive pressure under the cork of 30 psi. With vacuum corking you get a vacuum of 3 psi.
As such the headspace can contain enough Oxygen to fully saturate the wine 6 times over. No wonder home bottlings can get pretty oxidised.

ROTE bottles are made so that the 750ml level (which we are legally obliged to provide) is at a higher point in the neck of the bottle, but if its too much headspace it gets harder to take out the air using CO2 or Nitrogen.

I like to see them pretty full!
Cheers
Smithy

Ian, I've already done the test thinking we were getting more wine where the cork formerly was - wrong, still 750ml as the bottle designs are new.

Smithy, nice points, particularly about home bottlings which don't seem to last as well. That's why my personal bottlings now go via the professionals for screwing.