The Auswine Forum

I’m finding more non screw capped bottles sealed with diam cork composite. They seem snug and very tight fitting yet they come out with no fuss with a corkscrew. Yet on WineFront GW stated that he would prefer normal cork to diam. He made his point strongly.

As far as I have read the diam closure is reconstituted cork that goes through a chemical process to remove any hint of TCA, and a further benefit being a uniformly tight fit. But what are the negatives of diam? Do they last as long as good cork? I have been happy with this closure so far, but maybe I’m missing something.

Cheers

I much prefer Diam over natural cork - when forced to choose. I am not aware of any negatives.

I was at a Bouchard tasting and the their export director was there. He handed out his business card and said if you have any issues with any Bouchard (or Faiveley) wine due to the Diam cork failing in any way - email him directly and he would personally make sure you got a replacement bottle. He said they have moved their entire production to Diam and they were so confident of the closure they are willing to provide a 100% guarantee. For the grand cru and premier cru wines they use the Diam 30 - designed for a minimum of 30 years

Given how conservative the French are about these things and the amount of testing they did - it is definitely good enough for me. Plus never had an issue with a Diam closed wine.

Brodie

Tend to agree with you Brodie, tree bark like petrol driven vehicles will be extinct in less than 20 years. The French might hold onto TCA tradition, but plenty of others will make the move, if not already.

Cheers Craig

phillisc wrote:tree bark .....will be extinct in less than 20 years.
Cheers Craig

Had to laugh- i know exactly what you meant., Cork tree bark as used for wine closure may be gone in 20 years, but I do hope that are some trees with bark left in 20 years time.....

Luv DIAM on cheap Italians. More so than screw cap.

Cork is here forever. Just a wishful Aussie supposition otherwise .

brodie wrote:

phillisc wrote:tree bark .....will be extinct in less than 20 years.
Cheers Craig

Had to laugh- i know exactly what you meant., Cork tree bark as used for wine closure may be gone in 20 years, but I do hope that are some trees with bark left in 20 years time.....

Of course Brodie, silly me!
Do quite like a few trees...some silver birches going in shortly

Cheers Craig

Hacker wrote:on WineFront GW stated that he would prefer normal cork to diam. He made his point strongly.

I've been very happy with DIAM too. I've opened hundreds of bottles under DIAM and have never experienced any TCA (so their promise holds up). They offer oxygen transmission control (e.g., DIAM 5 vs 30), which natural corks don't (because they're inherently variable).

Did GW say why he preferred natural cork to DIAM?

No he didn’t. Occasionally he visits this site so perhaps he may give us his thoughts. He certainly has access to many winemakers and must also open more bottles than most of us combined, so I’m sure his views are well founded.

JamieBahrain wrote: Cork is here forever. Just a wishful Aussie supposition otherwise .

We all have our own views on this matter obviously, but I will be very surprised if there has not been a much larger worldwide move away from cork during the next 20-30 years. I don't see it as a "wishful supposition" myself.

Brodie

brodie wrote:

JamieBahrain wrote: Cork is here forever. Just a wishful Aussie supposition otherwise .

We all have our own views on this matter obviously, but I will be very surprised if there has not been a much larger worldwide move away from cork during the next 20-30 years. I don't see it as a "wishful supposition" myself.

Brodie

Guess on the one hand the purists are happy to have TCA and the argument on the other hand is air ingress.
I am quite happy to take on the battle of a supposedly underdeveloped wine through a generous decant.

Anyway, its getting a less of an issue for me, only about 4 regular purchases these days are under cork and pre-2010 bottles that are stuffed have been replaced.
Cheers Craig

I would imagine that advancements within the cork industry in eliminating TCA, and to a lesser extent oxidisation are of benefit to Australian winemakers. Others have told me that back in the late 20th century Australia was the export market of least worry for the cork industry and hence we seemed to have a bigger failure rate than other countries. But now one would assume we are getting quality seals. However, I still think twice about buying cork sealed red wines, like Rockford BP, whereas if the seal is diam or screw cap I have no second thoughts, rightly or wrongly.

brodie wrote:

JamieBahrain wrote: Cork is here forever. Just a wishful Aussie supposition otherwise .

We all have our own views on this matter obviously, but I will be very surprised if there has not been a much larger worldwide move away from cork during the next 20-30 years. I don't see it as a "wishful supposition" myself.

Brodie

I’d love it if we could actually move away from our own bias and have a real discussion on the issue in Australia. It has become so partisan and boringly extreme.

In my experience and perhaps I can be drowned by statistics, Australia is becoming a bit of an outlier in the modern wine world with screw-cap. Even our ( former ) big export market of China commanded cork sealed wines. Whatever the success of screw-cap I think the battle will be lost abroad to cork and technology stating they are TCA proof.

I'm gonna cross reference the WAX seal thread here and ask a question. Is there oxygen ingress thru a wax and cork sealed closure?
We need to clear this up.
I personally don't see how air is getting thru those two seals but is it actually possible?

Scotty vino wrote:I'm gonna cross reference the WAX seal thread here and ask a question. Is there oxygen ingress thru a wax and cork sealed closure?
We need to clear this up.
I personally don't see how air is getting thru those two seals but is it actually possible?

Good question, here is another one to ponder
Some of the 60s and 70s BLs that I have, they are cork with a plastic sleeve over them. The plastic is impervious requiring one to tear the serrated edge at the top of the bottle.
Could explain why some of these beauties still have fill levels at low neck and after a decant, open up with wonderful aromas and fruit characters

Cheers Craig

JamieBahrain wrote:Luv DIAM on cheap Italians.

Exactly - just like Isole e Elena Cepparello! Sorry they use screw caps - my bad

Brodie

JamieBahrain wrote:

brodie wrote:

JamieBahrain wrote: Cork is here forever. Just a wishful Aussie supposition otherwise .

We all have our own views on this matter obviously, but I will be very surprised if there has not been a much larger worldwide move away from cork during the next 20-30 years. I don't see it as a "wishful supposition" myself.

Brodie

I’d love it if we could actually move away from our own bias and have a real discussion on the issue in Australia. It has become so partisan and boringly extreme.

In my experience and perhaps I can be drowned by statistics, Australia is becoming a bit of an outlier in the modern wine world with screw-cap. Even our ( former ) big export market of China commanded cork sealed wines. Whatever the success of screw-cap I think the battle will be lost abroad to cork and technology stating they are TCA proof.

Actually the issue with cork goes beyond TCA, ask anyone who buys and cellars White Burgundy. Variable and unpredictable oxygen ingress rates make cork a closure that is by its very nature (to varying degrees) unreliable. This is not partisan position is is simple the truth. A cork is a natural product with natural variability. I know you prefer corks, I don't. I just am not willing to accept the failure rate as a "price of doing business"

I don't see this as an simply an Aussie issue. Some good examples overseas include Domaine Laroche in Chablis, Isole e Elena in Italy use screw caps. Most high end NZ wines are bottled under screw cap. I would love to see the hard data that supports your position.

cheers Brodie

I’m not a fan with any cork issues. I have tens of thousands of dollars of tainted wine ( I just haven’t opened them yet )

But there is nothing I have seen that will see cork disappear in the wine industry in the next 20-30 years. As time goes by, screw-cap is losing its initial small degree of traction abroad in traditional markets.

I’m a massive fan of old Aussie whites under screw-cap. Few realise how good they are, I suspect, due them being stationary in development for so long. Screw-cap is still a learning process obviously.

I hardly pay any attention to the seal when I buy a bottle of wine, either in person or online, which happens more frequently in recent years. My primary concern is the wine in the bottle and the reputation and practices of the wine maker. Things like vineyard practices, lower yields, less intervention in the wine making, non-filtration and, more recently, larger and older oak aging is what commands my interest. As far as I am concerned the seal is up to the discretion of the winemaker. To insist that the screwcap is paramount is like putting lipstick on a pig.

A few thoughts ...

I like DIAM very much. My brother has used it exclusively at Romney Park (apart from crown seals on BdB), can't recall a crook bottle.

Have had heaps of bad corks in Australian wines in the 80's and 90's.

The cork industry seems to have pulled it's collective digit out in the last decade or thereabouts and quality is much better. Winemakers who use cork are paying more attention to cork quality as well.

In many years of buying on the secondary market I have been very fortunate to have experienced a very low percentage of wines spoiled by cork problems (of course, I always look for provenance)

Happy with quality closures of any kind really, although I do have a niggling concern about long terms cellaring of reds under stelvin. It will be different to what we are used to under (good) cork).

JamieBahrain wrote:I’m not a fan with any cork issues. I have tens of thousands of dollars of tainted wine ( I just haven’t opened them yet )

But there is nothing I have seen that will see cork disappear in the wine industry in the next 20-30 years. As time goes by, screw-cap is losing its initial small degree of traction abroad in traditional markets.

I’m a massive fan of old Aussie whites under screw-cap. Few realise how good they are, I suspect, due them being stationary in development for so long. Screw-cap is still a learning process obviously.

But beyond screwcap...looking at DIAM..you don't see DIAM replacing cork? I mean, we're already seeing that on the higher end...Consumers aren't put off of it like they are screwcap (Most general wine drinkers don't even know there is a difference).

Screwcap wise...Wines age, they just often don't in the way we're used to seeing them under cork...and given the success of DIAM I'd probably prefer that for most wines...I still think for wines like Semillon and Riesling, Screwcap seems to be a better option...although I suppose VAT1 still not being ready may be an indication maybe DIAM is a better choice..or they just need to use a screwcap with more ingress..

I’m not sure I see DIAM as a replacement for cork. Mainly because of the faith in producers abroad I’ve talked to in taint free corks. The fast advent and popularity of DIAM in Piedmont surprised me. Opening about five bottles a week I was shocked to notice how many were under DiAM- and it happened virtually overnight. In Piedmont in seemed to be the sub-$30 USD region where DIAM proliferated. So mostly regional Nebbiolo, Barbera and Dolcetto. I can’t comment on other European regions.

Semillon and screw cap I’ve found problematic with a long period of stationary evolution. They get there but for my palate they need a long time. Your Vat 1 example for instance, though I have no experience with sc versions.

JamieBahrain wrote:I’m not sure I see DIAM as a replacement for cork. Mainly because of the faith in producers abroad I’ve talked to in taint free corks. The fast advent and popularity of DIAM in Piedmont surprised me. Opening about five bottles a week I was shocked to notice how many were under DiAM- and it happened virtually overnight. In Piedmont in seemed to be the sub-$30 USD region where DIAM proliferated. So mostly regional Nebbiolo, Barbera and Dolcetto. I can’t comment on other European regions.

Semillon and screw cap I’ve found problematic with a long period of stationary evolution. They get there but for my palate they need a long time. Your Vat 1 example for instance, though I have no experience with sc versions.

Burgundy producers have already started moving towards DIAM...at least some of the bigger names have....
It just seems to carry very little downside compared to cork. More consistent, less likely to have issues...seems like it ages just like cork..still imparts cork flavor like cork...I guess time will tell...

For earlier aging Semillon I haven't found screwcap to be a problem..ages properly and more consistently. I think the issue is for a Semillon that is made for longer term aging, screwcap just seems like it takes forever...Vat 1 98/99 were roaring and ready to go by 2008/2009....2003 Vat1 is nowhere near that level of development even today..and seems like it is still a ways off...Granted, I haven't tried it in a couple of years..but it certainly felt more than a couple of years away...

My experience with Lovedale under SC is they tasted the same for 15 years. So stationary. And then they developed dramatically and blossomed.

I no longer buy red wine if it is sealed with screwcap, which sadly excludes many Australian reds I would normally get.
Having gone thru two cases of Moss Wood 2001, one cork and one SC, there is no doubt that, for me, the cork seal provided a far, far better product. The last pair was shared blind with an 12 person wine group in March, and the verdict was a pretty clear 12-0 to the cork bottle.

The many rants from people here about 6-8 years ago that the French were stupid, and why weren't they sealing everything with SC, perhaps might seem a little mis-guided now, and the Bordelaise and Burgundians might have indeed been very wise to resist. Cork isn't the answer in it's current state at least, but it is clear that Diam is the future of artificial sealers.

White wines, OTOH, seem to do quite well under SC, although I would imagine the Burgundians are far more likely to turn to Diam, as they are currently doing in their droves.

Out of interest, I purchased a case of 2009 Magnien Fixin about 10 years ago sealed under SC. I have 3-4 bottles left, but all have been very pedestrian, and have shown no terroir or personality whatsoever. Something I find in the vast majority of SC sealed Aussie reds.

Felix, have not for a second inferred that the French or anyone else is stupid re closures. But, what everyone wants is a guarantee against TCA, oxidation and wines which are generally dank and stripped. Flip side of course is 20 year old under developed Cabernet.
I recently had another brilliant bottle of '99 Seppelts St Peter's, but a '99 Jasper Hill Georgia's was absolutely stuffed, smelt of mould and not a Shiraz berry in sight. Laughton's said they would replace.
So there you go, if only there was a consistent replacement policy.
Cheers Craig

After some wonderful experiences with old Moss Wood ( under cork ) from a HongKong collector, I’ve been backfilling more recent vintages at auction. Geez I hope I’m not going to end up with a dreary though ‘fresh’ Cabernet in a decade or so.

I agree with some of Felix’s views. I always found the closure debate in Australia partisan-like. I’d question the logic say, of switching to screw cap without trial, and concerns would be dismissed and you would be placed in the purgatory of the cork camp.

It’s no different overseas. I would try and have a logical discussion in Hong Kong with producers and fine wine aficionados, sometimes with a thousand dollar bottle of corked wine in front of us that nobody would pursue a refund of, and screw cap dismissed as a supermarket standard of closure for New World wine.

A decade from now, with such firm views, I think the landscape for closures will change but no where near as dramatically as many would think.