The Auswine Forum

Provoked by a comment in the WAYD thread, I was reminded of the heady days of the late 2000s when every man and his dog was churning out Shiraz-Viognier blends and promoting it as the best thing ever.

Yes, it is an allowed component of Côte-Rôtie which makes some of the world's best Syrah wines. Yes, it is part of Clonakilla's flagship marque which is very highly rated (I personally have never tried it). And yes, I have tried some good examples of the blend.

But it was an awful trend and honestly I thought (all cards on the table) most of the time it just added to the syrupy sweet, soupy, port like nature of a lot of over-ripe Aussie Shiraz.

What do you think- are you a fan or a hater? And why did it appear so dramatically and then almost completely disappear again??

Fan. Should be more of it.

Yering Station do a decent affordable SV. Likewise Yalumba.

Is it done much anywhere else in the world?

AndrewCowley wrote:Fan. Should be more of it.

Yering Station do a decent affordable SV. Likewise Yalumba.

Is it done much anywhere else in the world?

I recall having one of Yering Station's "premium" Shiraz Viognier that I got for a song at auction (like current vintage for maybe $20 when it retailed for $60 or something) and thinking highly of it...

(the beauty of keeping notes- it was on Dec 10, 2012 and was the 2006... at the time I raved about it giving it 94 pts although my scoring has got a lot tougher since then! "Saturated purple. Very dense on opening, fragrant but closed underneath. Day 2, this is opening up- still dense, chewy. The nose tempts but remains sultry. You have to go in for a taste. The palate is much more expressive, with near endless layers of flavour. Quality but question the QPR.")

I can't recall seeing it much elsewhere in the world, except the Rhone?

According to the Wine Collective:

"[The Viognier] is typically circa 5% in most blends, but can be up to 20% in some Coie Rotie, with the more Viognier in the blend, the more juicy and glossy the final wine can be. In Australia the blend is produced in most Shiraz producing areas - read nearly anywhere in the nation - but finds particular favour in Canberra and the Yarra Valley as well as McLaren Vale, the Barossa and the Hunter Valley. In warmer regions it makes for juicy, bright and quite fruit sweet wines with jammy luscious flavours. In cooler areas it makes for more silky, spicy wines without the sweet juiciness of the warmer climate wines. Shiraz/Syrah Viognier blends are also popular in Hawkes Bay, NZ as well as part of South Africa and the United States."

https://www.thewinecollective.com.au/blogs/v ... z-viognier

That said, I have had a lot of South African wine and don't recall seeing any SV- maybe it was a passing fad there as well?

I enjoy Serrat SV and have also had more than my fair share of Glenlofty SV

I think it really only works with cool climate Shiraz.

I Love Shiraz wrote:I think it really only works with cool climate Shiraz.

That's my experience too - the warm climate ones really don't need the viognier.

Then again, the Cote Rotie isn't exactly cool...

Hate it

sjw_11 wrote:I recall having one of Yering Station's "premium" Shiraz Viognier that I got for a song at auction (like current vintage for maybe $20 when it retailed for $60 or something) and thinking highly of it...

(the beauty of keeping notes- it was on Dec 10, 2012 and was the 2006... at the time I raved about it giving it 94 pts although my scoring has got a lot tougher since then! "Saturated purple. Very dense on opening, fragrant but closed underneath. Day 2, this is opening up- still dense, chewy. The nose tempts but remains sultry. You have to go in for a taste. The palate is much more expressive, with near endless layers of flavour. Quality but question the QPR.")

Good to know. I have both levels of the Yering Station Shiraz-Viognier, a pair of the 2006 and a single bottle of the 2005 Reserve. I've not tasted them before so your note is helpful. Naturally enough I will try the regular bottling before tackling the reserve. The only question is how long do I wait.

I don't mind the wine maker using Viognier but it has to be integral to the wine. I don't like it when I can smell and taste the Viognier component.

Mahmoud.

For me, the Viognier often sticks out a bit much. Having said that, I did buy a half dozen of the Ravensworth Shiraz Viognier earlier in the year after enjoying a single bottle I had picked up previously.
I also have a couple of bottles of a Durif/Viognier blend which is interesting.

I agree that the Viognier component should give the Shiraz a little lift, without swamping the wine with apricots. Climate possibly comes into it (I've bought a couple of Cote Roties recently, noted that Cotes Du Rhone isn't exactly cool climate, but Yarra Valley is borderline also). The Yering Station SVs were excellent from 2006 & 2008, but there's also a tiny Swan Valley producer that made a very creditable SV in 2015.

There's also variations on this. Myattsfield in the Perth Hills have been making a consistently good Shiraz Mourvedre Viognier for several years now, and the Viognier component is not obtrusive.

In summary then, I am fine with SV blends. It's not about emulating the French, or whether it's a fleeting trend. It's whether it makes a good wine.

Cheers
Allan

I really enjoy the Serrat version. Had a 2010 the other night that was wonderful. I have several vintages in the cellar.

As for Clonakilla, never really been a fan and much prefer the straight Shiraz they produce. The '09 is probably the most curious vintage. I have had fantastic bottles and some terrible ones. I find the O'Riada more approachable normally. But the SV obviously has a loyal following so I guess it horses for courses.

Never had a good one from South Australia that I can remember, though I'm sure there are some about.

Cheers
Ian

IIRC, Viognier is used in small amounts with Shiraz, to soften the wine, stabilise the colour and add to the nose.
But I believe it also ripens earlier than Shiraz, so I'm not sure how it's added. It would have to be during or before fermentation, otherwise you wouldn't get the colour stabilisation (would you).

That being said, I don't think I've ever had a Shiraz where the Viognier was a noticeable addition. But then, small amounts of CabSauv are added to Shiraz also (often without it being required to be labelled as such).

Not a fan.
The Clonakilla is an OK wine (not worth $120 though), but as soon as you taste the non-viognier version alongside - the Murrambateman - it's no contest!
Never had a top-notch Cote-Rotie for comparison, admittedly.
Have just the two bottles in my cellar; one from Lerida (also Canberra) and the other from Thailand (yes, really).

I find 90% of Australian SV blends "absolutely putrid", the other 10% are just "putrid".

The OP comments are 100% in line with mine, the addition of Viognier to Australian shiraz simply makes the wine sweeter, more flabby and less age-worthy.
It is quite difficult to understand why the respective wine-makers cannot see that.
Still, if you like drinking sweet reds, then I guess there is a market for it, Clonakilla has certainly proven that.

Nope, not a fan. Like Felix, I think it makes the shiraz flabby and sweet.
I think it was driven by the Uber-knob Parker and his lust for things like Torbreck RunRig-over extracted, porty 98-100 pointers.
Wine makers chasing points by making wine for critics, not enhancing that which is grown in, and reflective of the vineyard. Thankfully that trend has largely gone by the wayside, however there are still plenty of winemakers that like to be on trend more so than let the terrior do the talking.

rens wrote:I think it was driven by the Uber-knob Parker and his lust for things like Torbreck RunRig-over extracted, porty 98-100 pointers.
Wine makers chasing points by making wine for critics, not enhancing that which is grown in, and reflective of the vineyard.

I wonder, perhaps someone can chime in but weren't there already Parker inspired wines before the Shiraz-Viognier trend started? I suspect that the inspiration for it was based on trying to emulate Northern Rhone and thinking that adding/co-fermenting Viognier was all that was needed. However, as the above posts shows, it hasn't really worked.

Cheers ...................... Mahmoud.

I wonder if the quality of the viognier has anything to do with it?

The Northern Rhone has beautiful viognier fruit. You can get a taste of it from the best of Condrieu of course. However, nearby there were some emerging Vin de pays that were pretty smart. Some of the more minerally expressions versus say the fruit forward styles, probably melding best with my favourite Cote Roties.

JamieBahrain wrote:I wonder if the quality of the viognier has anything to do with it?

The Northern Rhone has beautiful viognier fruit. You can get a taste of it from the best of Condrieu of course. However, nearby there were some emerging Vin de pays that were pretty smart. Some of the more minerally expressions versus say the fruit forward styles, probably melding best with my favourite Cote Roties.

Interesting question... it is a good point- I adore Coindrieu, not sure I have tried many vin de pays Viognier from nearby, most straight viognier's I have tried from elsewhere are pretty poor substitutes.

Yalumba certainly has good Viognier. I've not had the premium Virgilius but the second tier Eden Valley bottling is pretty smart.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:Yalumba certainly has good Viognier. I've not had the premium Virgilius but the second tier Eden Valley bottling is pretty smart.

As the addition of less than 5% of other varietals to a single varietal wine is not required to be mentioned on the label, how many of the 'Shiraz' wines out there are actually made with a little Viognier?

sjw_11 wrote:Interesting question... it is a good point- I adore Coindrieu, not sure I have tried many vin de pays Viognier from nearby, most straight viognier's I have tried from elsewhere are pretty poor substitutes.

There's a number of Cote Rotie producers who were making viognier a stones throw from the appellation.

Vin de pays, perhaps try Christine Vernay's and move your way along from there. Her Vin de pays is further south.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:I suspect that the inspiration for it was based on trying to emulate Northern Rhone and thinking that adding/co-fermenting Viognier was all that was needed.

Trying to emulate another Old World wine region isn't limited to SV. I can understand the logic of a winemaker using an iconic benchmark wine region such as Rhone, Burgundy or Bordeaux as something to aspire to. Sometimes they even succeed. In my wine groups, we occasionally come across an Aussie wine that everyone mistakes for its Old World counterpart. But that's an exception rather than the rule. And it tends to be vintage specific and even time specific (drinking at a certain bottle age), rather than the norm for that producer.

I just wish they wouldn't. I prefer my wine to have a sense of place and I think it's all the better for it. It's often said that Aussie wine regions don't speak of "terroir". Could this be because rather than letting the vineyards speak for themselves, winemakers try and transform the wines into something else?

Ozzie W wrote:

Mahmoud Ali wrote:I suspect that the inspiration for it was based on trying to emulate Northern Rhone and thinking that adding/co-fermenting Viognier was all that was needed.

Trying to emulate another Old World wine region isn't limited to SV. I can understand the logic of a winemaker using an iconic benchmark wine region such as Rhone, Burgundy or Bordeaux as something to aspire to. Sometimes they even succeed. In my wine groups, we occasionally come across an Aussie wine that everyone mistakes for its Old World counterpart. But that's an exception rather than the rule. And it tends to be vintage specific and even time specific (drinking at a certain bottle age), rather than the norm for that producer.

I just wish they wouldn't. I prefer my wine to have a sense of place and I think it's all the better for it. It's often said that Aussie wine regions don't speak of "terroir". Could this be because rather than letting the vineyards speak for themselves, winemakers try and transform the wines into something else?

I quite take your point Ozzie but if I understand the concept of terroir, even if an Australian winemaker were to "emulate" an old world style of wine making, the terrior would still come through. Imagine if a northern Rhone wine maker were to make a wine in Australia, would not the terroir still make itself known?

What I'm trying to say is that simply adding/co-fermenting Viognier to Shiraz while making an Aussie style wine will not do the trick.

Mahmoud.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:Imagine if a northern Rhone wine maker were to make a wine in Australia, would not the terroir still make itself known?

Michel Chapoutier comes to mind here with his wines from the Pyrenees, Heathcote and Beechworth. His philosophy is to let the terroir speak for itself, so he does exactly what I wish other winemakers would do. The point I was trying to make is that some Aussie winemakers use too much interventional wine making rather than letting the vines speak for themselves. I was postulating that perhaps this is why the GI's in Australia don't speak of terroir to the same degree as those in the Old World.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:What I'm trying to say is that simply adding/co-fermenting Viognier to Shiraz while making an Aussie style wine will not do the trick.

Agreed.

Of the half dozen vintages of Clonakilla I have tried, the Viognier gives this dense mouth coating feel, almost bordering on greasy, but does add body to the wine. I don't mind the style, but at a $100+ a bit of a laugh and certainly not interested.
Yalumba Virgilius, picked blind on many occasions is a rather oily oaky mess, would go well with fish and chips. Give me an EV Riesling any day!
Can't like them all
Cheers Craig

Ozzie W wrote:Michel Chapoutier comes to mind here with his wines from the Pyrenees, Heathcote and Beechworth. His philosophy is to let the terroir speak for itself, so he does exactly what I wish other winemakers would do.

I have a bottle of Australian Chapoutier. It was a Shiraz with some braille on the label. I bought a pair of them, tried a bottle, was impressed, and went back to buy some more but found it was sold out. I recall the name 'Mathilde' but not the vintage or where it was from.

Mahmoud.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:

Ozzie W wrote:Michel Chapoutier comes to mind here with his wines from the Pyrenees, Heathcote and Beechworth. His philosophy is to let the terroir speak for itself, so he does exactly what I wish other winemakers would do.

I have a bottle of Australian Chapoutier. It was a Shiraz with some braille on the label. I bought a pair of them, tried a bottle, was impressed, and went back to buy some more but found it was sold out. I recall the name 'Mathilde' but not the vintage or where it was from.

Mahmoud.

You are probably thinking about the Domaine Tournon Mathilda Chapoutier Shiraz. Made in Victoria. Last vintage released here in Ontario was the 2017. $16.25 CDN.

I don’t like apricots, so I tend to avoid

Mike Hawkins wrote:I don’t like apricots, so I tend to avoid

I like apricots, fresh and ripe as well as dried, however, like you, not in my wines, and there is a marked scent of it when the Viognier is used with a heavy hand.