The Auswine Forum

Is brettanomyces common is many wines over 15 or 20 years old? As my cellar ages, I seem to be finding more wines with it. I can take a bit of it but she who must be obeyed is very sensitive to it and can smell it a mile off and refuses to touch it.
Had a great experience with one WA premium (18 yrs old), who sent me a replacement dozen (2015)! Wish all wineries would do that..

Brett is something that blooms with oxygen and heat, so cellar age can definitely make it far more noticeable - one of my favorite wines ever is the 1995 Houghton Special Show Reserve Shiraz, yet the last bottle I tried was undrinkable (notably it had a low fill level and soaked/crumbly cork, so I figure oxygen was a factor).

That said, brett can be just as present in new release wines - I tried the 2014 Greenock Creek Mataro last Monday, and it reeks of the fault.

Luke W wrote:Is brettanomyces common is many wines over 15 or 20 years old? .

Is is common in older bottles? I would say more frequent, but depends on the winery hygiene and wine making practices.

Brett is in there from the day of bottling. Under the right conditions it can definitely "bloom" in the bottle. The longer you have a bottle, the greater the risk it will go from a tiny undetectable amount to something noticeable and bothersome. So yes more of a issue with older wines. But for me still not that common - maybe one in 20 or 1 in 50 bottles. We all have different sensitivities to brett (like TCA) so maybe I am less sensitive?

cheers Brodie

I find it's more producer dependent, a few are notorious for too much of the wrong brett, others have benefitted from a touch of brett adding to the uniqueness or enjoyment of their wines. Many are 'cleaning up' these days though, not always a good thing IMHO but it's a bit random so levels can't be controlled which must be frustrating. There's so many different characters to brett, not all of them bad!! It's the band aid and metallic notes that I dislike, but it can also add notes of violet, smoked meat or roses....

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The 15 to 20 year time frame, can be capturing an era when winemaking more of an issue as well. I'm guessing they are Aussie wines? Certainly back then this forum was littered complaints of new wines with tolerable levels of brett. I could be wrong, but reading here and say WF, brett is not mentioned as much in new releases.

My take, consistent with some of the earlier comments, is that it is common in older wines, primarily because winery hygiene is better now than it has been in the past. One well known SA winery had issues with it in the late 90s, but since resolving the issue in the early noughties has gone from strength to strength.

JamieBahrain wrote:The 15 to 20 year time frame, can be capturing an era when winemaking more of an issue as well. I'm guessing they are Aussie wines? Certainly back then this forum was littered complaints of new wines with tolerable levels of brett. I could be wrong, but reading here and say WF, brett is not mentioned as much in new releases.

I agree, doesn't seem to be talked about anywhere near as much as it used to be. I don't like it, but I can't recall the last wine I tried that was really bretty.

Yeah, they're aus wines and all around 2000 to 2005, from all regions. I remember the sweat saddle that was the defining flavour of Hunter shiraz but it was easier to drink..

I seem to get Brett in more mataro/mourvedre wines...though having said that, maybe that's a reflection of hygiene in the Rhone region rather than the grape varietal.. I don't have much experience with Australian mataro (either single grape or GSM blends).

I totally agree and all the commentary I have read support the view that Brett was more prominent before the advent of improved cleanliness, but I hadn't heard before the idea that an existing Brett affect in bottle could "bloom" or worsen with further bottle ageing. That is quite interesting to me.

Personally, I suspect I have a relatively low (or high depending how you look at it!) sensitivity to it and don't often find it detracting from wine I buy today.

Dragzworthy wrote:I seem to get Brett in more mataro/mourvedre wines...though having said that, maybe that's a reflection of hygiene in the Rhone region rather than the grape varietal.. I don't have much experience with Australian mataro (either single grape or GSM blends).

Over the last 25+ years the topic of brett dominated the forums. Amazing information and anecdotes were presented. I recall one of the forum contributors even testing at the winery some foreign gear. Proving high levels of brett. Hard to slog over the topic again, so much has been learnt, then lost or forgotten in my case. The great wines were argued over.

Ah the earth wines ( mataro/mourvedre ) . Brett, varietal character or terroir? I can't remember if we ever got a definitive answer?

A few things I've noticed. Foreign wines problematic with brett, by the time they get to Aus' the brett-bloom can make them undrinkable. Whereas in the South of France, they are fine.

Mourvedre in a Rhone blend needs time. From a recent tasting at Beaucastel I was guided through how mourvedre brings lovely earthy and aged characters to a wine- though not chook poo!

Perhaps the ultimate test for me will be the dozen Beaucastel Hommage Perrin spread over a few vintages I have in my cellar. The brett debate will come together at the highest levels of price, reputation and pure varietal character .

I'd say the concerted effort by wineries to rid their wines of Brett took off (internationally, but much more so in the New World, and certainly in Australia) in the 1990's. It is definitely less common than it used to be (across the board, internationally).

I'd say it's presence is more down to winery philosophy: some don't take so much issue with it or consider what they do have to be a problem, while others will do anything to get rid of it. It can certainly grow in bottle (if it isn't removed at bottling or before) under the right conditions (nutrients, pH, temperature...). Personally, I'm deliberately ageing my Musar reds warm in the hope of more Brett-stink

I'm sure that Brett gets worse in bottle, as most of these wines were tolerable 5 yrs ago. Some get to the stage where u can't even put them near your mouth. Thank heavens it's only a few. I'd hate it if it was endemic in Coonawarra reds for example. I have one wine which I bought a pallet of that has just started showing it at 20 yrs of age (I've been drinking it for 13 yrs and am down to the last 100 bottles or so, but only a few are showing it, so it's development is not assured even though they are from the same vats).

I'm sure that Brett gets worse in bottle, as most of these wines were tolerable 5 yrs ago. Some get to the stage where u can't even put them near your mouth. Thank heavens it's only a few. I'd hate it if it was endemic in Coonawarra reds for example. I have one wine which I bought a pallet of that has just started showing it at 20 yrs of age (I've been drinking it for 13 yrs and am down to the last 100 bottles or so, but only a few are showing it, so it's development is not assured even though they are from the same vats).

Had a 1978 Cave de Tain Hermitage a few nights ago - with a whisp of possible brett ( beautiful smokey bacon in red fruits )

JamieBahrain wrote:

Dragzworthy wrote:I seem to get Brett in more mataro/mourvedre wines...though having said that, maybe that's a reflection of hygiene in the Rhone region rather than the grape varietal.. I don't have much experience with Australian mataro (either single grape or GSM blends).

Over the last 25+ years the topic of brett dominated the forums. Amazing information and anecdotes were presented. I recall one of the forum contributors even testing at the winery some foreign gear. Proving high levels of brett. Hard to slog over the topic again, so much has been learnt, then lost or forgotten in my case. The great wines were argued over.

Ah the earth wines ( mataro/mourvedre ) . Brett, varietal character or terroir? I can't remember if we ever got a definitive answer?

A few things I've noticed. Foreign wines problematic with brett, by the time they get to Aus' the brett-bloom can make them undrinkable. Whereas in the South of France, they are fine.

Mourvedre in a Rhone blend needs time. From a recent tasting at Beaucastel I was guided through how mourvedre brings lovely earthy and aged characters to a wine- though not chook poo!

Perhaps the ultimate test for me will be the dozen Beaucastel Hommage Perrin spread over a few vintages I have in my cellar. The brett debate will come together at the highest levels of price, reputation and pure varietal character .

I'm a pretty big fan of Pegau which is, similar to Beaucastel, known for a Brett quality, albeit in a cheaper and less emphatic level. I do find it adds a certain quality. Call it a fault but this is a wine that made me fall in love with most wines so the Brett carries a certain charm for me.

I think the last few Beaucastel's I've had were all absent of brett..and frankly, made for a bit of a disappointment.

Wine was still really good...but you expect a bit of brett, especially from certain producers...and you're probably still drinking them specifically because you want that "style". In otherwords, if you hate any forms of brett you certainly would not be buying wine from a producer known to have wine with brett.

You could even argue that the regional characteristics of a wine are because of brett. We often associate smoked or cured meat, bacon and bacon fat with Rhone but those flavors are from brett...

Luke W wrote:. I have one wine which I bought a pallet of that has just started showing it at 20 yrs of age (I've been drinking it for 13 yrs and am down to the last 100 bottles or so, but only a few are showing it, so it's development is not assured even though they are from the same vats).

Impressive purchase! Makes my 6 dozen Purchases look like an L plater.... Well done

dingozegan wrote:Personally, I'm deliberately ageing my Musar reds warm in the hope of more Brett-stink

I've drank them back to the 50's ( with the late Serge Hochar ) and they can be excellent. Far more experience with the 60's Musar. The white Musars steal the show! Benjamin Button of wines as Serge said in his own words- they get younger and fresher with age.

Now we've mentioned Musar and Beaucastel, no denying the brett, yet well sourced they are in no way as bad as some notes I read. Not sure how cold Serge's cellar was- he survived artillery barrages from the Syrian & Israeli armies- and having Beaucastel from the source, in vintages I was experienced with, the showing exceptional.

I still believe poor transport a significant negative for wines described as being exceptional with a little brett- and this may be where some polarising opinions derive from.

I wasn't being sarcastic with that comment. I like the aromas that Brett imparts and it's extremely rare that I find a wine so Brett-ridden that it's undrinkable for me (which does happen for me when the Brett completely obliterates the palate to the point that it goes metallic).

The Brett-derived characters used to more present in Musar. From the mid 90's they seem to have largely lost it (although they still show a reasonable amount of VA). I had wondered if this was a storage/transport issue too, but many bottles of 90's vintages would likely have had warm storage/transport. They now have the equivalent maturity of the 80's vintages drunk in 2000's, and they aren't showing the Brett character anything like what they used to, so I think there's been some cleaning up in the winery. I can only hope there's still some Brett in the odd bottle/vintage and that ageing it warmer might help to give a bloom in bottle.

Musar's vineyards are a long way from the winery. At least a few hours by car. Depending on the period ( war ) , transport by horse and cart too. I'm not sure if that was the case in 2003/2004 after the Israeli Defence Force ran an interdiction campaign against Lebanese infrastructure ( bridges / roads ). How this affects brett I'm unsure? Certainly some vintages more so than others.

After Serge passed, a lot of Musar hit the markets. Winery release offers from various merchants worldwide. I sourced a lot of it as nothing was more than $30AUD. I also told friends to go long. I noticed some significant variations in a few vintages and sent a few cases back. It's always hard to tell if Musar cooked as you can be sure its received heat somewhere in the logistics channels, but these wines were a mess. Alternatively sourced Musars from the same vintages were excellent- 2000, 2004, 98 I think - with the 2004 being having that new cleanliness you alluded to.

dingozegan wrote:Personally, I'm deliberately ageing my Musar reds warm in the hope of more Brett-stink

Ouch, intuitively a bad idea I would say but of course it all depends on what you consider warm. Apart from what people are calling brett, Musars are very long-lived wines and I can understand that people with younger vintages might not be too keen on prolonging the maturation.

Musar has always been known to be divisive in that there is a love-hate relationship. For my own part I love the wines and have been fortunate enough not to have had a bad bottle except for a corked magnum of a 1981 at a Musar vertical some years ago. It's worthwhile reminding people that the Musar blend of Cabernet, Carignan, and Cinsault is very much vintage driven and the blend changes accordingly

The Israeli invasion that Jamie referred to was in 2006 and if I remember correctly some 20 to 30 itinerant fruit pickers from Syria were killed in a bomb attack. According to Chateau Musar: "However in July 2006, without warning, Lebanon came under siege. The country was affected badly and everybody naturally thought this vintage would be lost but we continued with our harvest even though the conditions surrounding us were very difficult and dangerous."

By the way, Musar's description of the blending and release of the 2006 vintage ought to provoke the interest of any wine lover in acquiring a bottle:

"The Chateau Musar Red of 2006 is our classical blend of a third each of Cabernet Sauvignon, Cinsault and Carignan. The blending took place three years later in 2009 and the wines spent a year in French Nevers oak barrels. The release date of this vintage however, did not happen as planned! Our policy has always been to release our Chateau reds and whites when they are ready for drinking and this is generally 7 years from the harvest, but in 2013 this wine was far from ready and needed more time. So we decided to postpone the release for one year, then another, then another until we were finally certain that the 2006 was ready for drinking in the spring of 2017."

I have not seen the 2006 in my area and have not been to Heathrow Terminal 5 for quite some time. It is where I picked up the '01, '02, and '03 Musar.

Cheers ................. Mahmoud.