The Auswine Forum

Say I want something from this vintage to enjoy in 2060... what thoughts do you have on the following wines?

Bordeaux:
La Conseillante ($250)
Palmer ($450)
Canon ($200)
Cos d'Estournel ($350)

Australian:
Woodlands Cabernet Sauvignon (~$100)
Cullen Diana Madeline ($125)
Penfolds St Henri ($160)
Penfolds Grange ($850)
Penfolds Bin 389 ($120)
Penfolds Bin 707 ($650)
Mount Edelstone ($200)
Wynns John Riddoch ($150)
Wynns Black Label Cabernet Sauvignon ($40)
Wynns Alex '88 (<$100?)

Italian:
Cappellano (<$200?)
Brunello di Montalcino (?)

German:
Auslese/Beerenauslese (?)

Others:
Vin Juane (<$200)



Is there anything else that is readily available (I heard it was a good vintage in Barolo?) that I should consider?

So, you're wondering if these wines will peak in 50 years. I'm sure they will last that long but will they be at their peak or on the downward slope. For my own part I don't mind wines that are on the tail end of their plateau but I suspect I am in the minority.

I have five wines on your list, four of them from Australia if you can believe it, and I am still waiting for the oldest ones to come around. One thing to consider, whatever the track record of the wines that are now 50 years old, is the fact that those wines weren't necessarily made in the same way and what impact these changes will have on the longevity of the wines made today. I suppose all we can do is trust in the pedigree of the wine estate.

Chateau Palmer

I feel certain the Palmer will go the distance. I have 1986 Palmer and I am still waiting for it to peak. The Palmer website is very informative, they have notes on vintages going back to 1959, which they say "READY TO DRINK BUT CAN BE KEPT A FEW MORE YEARS". One might be inclined to think this might be old advice but I assure you it is not. I have gone back to the website over the years and I have three different downloads, each with a different aging potential for my 1986 Palmer. Initially it was 2000-2025, then 2025+, and to 2025. Today I see that they say "READY TO DRINK BUT CAN BE KEPT A FEW
MORE YEARS". For the 2010 they have no dates (as yet) but they do talk about it being legendary and with a tight, tannic structure.

Penfold's

With 2010 being a good vintage these Penfold's wines should be long-lived. I think with Grange you will have no problem getting to 2060 without it being past its peak. According to Jeremy Oliver's 2016 Guide my 1983 Grange's drinking window is 2023-2033, and let me tell you the window has moved back from his earlier assessments. For your 2010 he give it a window of 2014-2050+ so I have a feeling unless something goes seriously wrong that window will also move further away.

As for the others Penfold's wines, the St Henri, Bin 707, and Bin 389, I don't know if they will be at peak at 50 years of age but they might well be alive and enjoyable to those who fancy that kind of profile. I've an 1988 Bin 707 and 1995 St Henri and since they are not the best of vintages I think I might have already pushed the envelope. I'll get a better feel for the Bin 389 when I finally open one of my 1996s.

In essence, you probably can't go wrong with the the Palmer and the Grange.

Now, to throw a spanner into all this, a couple of years ago I opened a bottle of 1962 Frescobaldi Castello di Nippozano Chianti Riserva, Rufina. It was over 50 years old and was an absolute delight. Others at the table thought it two decades younger. I suspect that the current incarnation of the wine won't last as long, perhaps because of different wine making, perhaps because premium products have been introduced into their lineup. This question is relevant to Penfold's because what with all the other special bins and things like RWT, one has to wonder what effect it has on things like St Henri and Bin 389.

With wine you just never know.

Cheers ................................. Mahmoud.

Well you would have to be 30+ years younger than me...I'll just be a sprightly 95, fuck!!

If you wanted to lower your sights a little, highly likely that Wynns JR and BL will still be OK by then. I have had 3 or 4 bottles from 66, 68, 72, 76 and they have held up very well. Mind you, screw cap will be a lottery, could be some at 50 years that are still on the way up, perhaps you could cryovac a couple for me, in preparation for when I see you on the other side
Cheers Craig

If not stored properly, all of them will be vinegar in 30 years

If stored properly, Palmer & Grange will be your safest bets (but no guarantees!), but I'd have thought St Henri would probably go the distance too. Hill of Grace too, if you can get it.

To put another wrench in the works though - if you're just looking for something for a milestone in 30 years, the milestone will be more important than the wine - so what about something sweet or fortified? I'd say you stand a far higher chance of an enjoyable drinking experience 30 years from now.

Thanks for all the very helpful comments so far. I've added Wynns based on this tasting: https://chrisshanahan.com/articles/2017/wynn ... es-tasted/
Added Cos d'Estournel as well even though Palmer seems to have more longevity based on critics.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:So, you're wondering if these wines will peak in 50 years. I'm sure they will last that long but will they be at their peak or on the downward slope.

I would like it to be at the peak: i.e. on the drinking plateau. Don't care if it falls away the next year (of course I know it doesn't work exactly like that.) But going by the rule of thumb I am guessing I want something that will improve till 2035-2040 (and thus drink well to 2060).

asajoseph wrote: If stored properly, Palmer & Grange will be your safest bets (but no guarantees!), but I'd have thought St Henri would probably go the distance too. Hill of Grace too, if you can get it.

Palmer is half the price of Grange and HOG so obviously I prefer that.

asajoseph wrote: what about something sweet or fortified? I'd say you stand a far higher chance of an enjoyable drinking experience 30 years from now.

The requirement is for the wines to be on their drinking plateau in another 40 years. Should probably put some sweet Bordeaux away (these are significantly cheaper). It's not a declared port year but I have put away some single quinta vintage ports and Australian vintage fortifieds. However I would not say that these do not have a proven track record that the mentioned Bordeaux/Grange and even Wynns has... in essence I agree I am looking for a track record as per Mahmoud's comment: " I suppose all we can do is trust in the pedigree of the wine estate."

phillisc wrote:Well you would have to be 30+ years younger than me...I'll just be a sprightly 95, fuck!!

I am not as young as you suggest but just on the basis of age I have a higher probability of being around to drink these rather than you. On that light note, these wines are quite expensive but of course there is no need to buy so many since one should factor in the probability of dying before being able to appreciate them.

phillisc wrote:Mind you, screw cap will be a lottery, could be some at 50 years that are still on the way up, perhaps you could cryovac a couple for me, in preparation for when I see you on the other side

Screw cap indeed is going to be helpful, as far as the guidance I am relying on is that a screwcapped wine will be equivalent to the best corked wine with no oxygen ingress. In that regards maybe things like the Marius Symphony and Wynns Black Label may well go the distance. If it does I will save you some by way of vindication.

Leoville Las Cases
Latour
Petrus
d'Yquem
Faiveley Clos des Cortons
De Vogue Musigny
DRC Romanee Conti
Penfold's Grange
Bartolo Mascarello
Giacosa Red Label

.... all the above should be peak drinking in another 40 years if cellared correctly.

felixp21 wrote:Leoville Las Cases
Latour
Petrus
d'Yquem
Faiveley Clos des Cortons
De Vogue Musigny
DRC Romanee Conti
Penfold's Grange
Bartolo Mascarello
Giacosa Red Label

.... all the above should be peak drinking in another 40 years if cellared correctly.

Thanks. Will add Leoville las cases and dyquem to the list. The rest are out of my budget or not readily available in Australia.

Perhaps then on your 80th and my 95th, we can share a glass of something...and a straw

Good luck with it all...one other that you have overlooked and cue the coming hysteria is Wendouree, under screw cap might go to 2080...and you'll have joined me by then.

Cheers Craig

Alex F wrote:

Mahmoud Ali wrote:So, you're wondering if these wines will peak in 50 years. I'm sure they will last that long but will they be at their peak or on the downward slope.

I would like it to be at the peak: i.e. on the drinking plateau. Don't care if it falls away the next year (of course I know it doesn't work exactly like that.) But going by the rule of thumb I am guessing I want something that will improve till 2035-2040 (and thus drink well to 2060).

In that case you are pretty safe. Wines that take a long time to reach maturity tend to have a relatively long plateau. That is what Parker used to say about Bordeaux, and then he went on to say that the decline was slow.

Mahmoud.

Why don't you age the screw capped Aussies in the fridge? They'll easy do the 50 years then. I've had superb Mt Edelstone from the sixties inside of a decade ago. Quite amazing considering for most of their time they wouldn't have been cellared that well ( at best South Australian subterranean ). But this was lucky. Not always the case- certainly some 70's weary of late.

I've enjoyed Gaja's Infernot vintages many times. Kept in supercool parts of their cellars for decades. Actually had wines from this part of their cellar from the 50's too. Pristine Barbaresco- truly amazing. So I kid you not about the fridge.

If anyone wants to cellar wine for a very long time in a fridge, they should make sure it is in a wine fridge and not in a regular household refrigerator. Over the long term vibration and low humidity make have adverse effects.

Mahmoud.

The best old red wines (80-100+ years old) I've had were all kept at consistent, low temperatures (10-12C), in the dark, decent humidity and free of vibration. If you can maintain these conditions for the whole time then I have no doubt that any of those wines listed will look good in 40+ years or more, assuming the corks aren't too porous or riddled with TCA...

d'Yquem, Cos, LLC, Mt-E and Riddoch my picks from the ones you have in mind. For much more money, Ch Margaux or Latour....

I'm not personally convinced the modern Grange, St Henri or 389 wines will age as well as earlier generations. 707 may well do, but they're all a hard pass at today's prices for me either way.

Cheers
Tim

Like a few others have mentioned on other posts previously, I haven't personally had an aged Cullen that I was
impressed with. And we are talking about wines that are only 10-15+ years old...... not the 40+ years you are looking at.
Storage conditions play a very big part as well.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:If anyone wants to cellar wine for a very long time in a fridge, they should make sure it is in a wine fridge and not in a regular household refrigerator. Over the long term vibration and low humidity make have adverse effects.

Mahmoud.

The Vibration is a good call - but surely humidity not really relevant for screwcaps?

asajoseph wrote:

Mahmoud Ali wrote:If anyone wants to cellar wine for a very long time in a fridge, they should make sure it is in a wine fridge and not in a regular household refrigerator. Over the long term vibration and low humidity make have adverse effects.

Mahmoud.

The Vibration is a good call - but surely humidity not really relevant for screwcaps?

Yes. True. A careless recommendation. My point was more getting a lower temperature to slow maturation and avoiding the risk of cork failure.

Humidity can be a problem too, with wine fridges, when you remove wines to high humidity environment and they coat in moisture damaging labels.Labels are vulnerable to high humidity environments though many modern labels seem protected.

Tyson Stelzer's book ( he posted here decades ago ) on converting a conventional fridge to a wine fridge. Not sure how successful this method was now we have the test of time? Cellaring wine for 60 years properly will come at a cost. My European wine fridge has a min selection of 6- perhaps a little too glacial even for 60 years.

Duplicate.

Alex F wrote:]

The requirement is for the wines to be on their drinking plateau in another 40 years. Should probably put some sweet Bordeaux away (these are significantly cheaper). It's not a declared port year but I have put away some single quinta vintage ports and Australian vintage fortifieds. However I would not say that these do not have a proven track record that the mentioned Bordeaux/Grange and even Wynns has... in essence I agree I am looking for a track record as per Mahmoud's comment: " I suppose all we can do is trust in the pedigree of the wine estate."

If you're looking for something on the sweeter end of the spectrum then some of the German rizzas from 2010 should easily go the distance.

Another one that I would back is Bests Thompson's Shiraz.
Had the 94 and 97 side by side two years ago...amazing experience.
Would be encouraged that a 2010 (again under screw cap) will make the journey.

It may have been raised, but would you be looking at magnums (for a bit of insurance??).

Cheers Craig

daver6 wrote:

Alex F wrote:]

The requirement is for the wines to be on their drinking plateau in another 40 years. Should probably put some sweet Bordeaux away (these are significantly cheaper). It's not a declared port year but I have put away some single quinta vintage ports and Australian vintage fortifieds. However I would not say that these do not have a proven track record that the mentioned Bordeaux/Grange and even Wynns has... in essence I agree I am looking for a track record as per Mahmoud's comment: " I suppose all we can do is trust in the pedigree of the wine estate."

If you're looking for something on the sweeter end of the spectrum then some of the German rizzas from 2010 should easily go the distance.

Heres a coincidence - I was going to post recommending against 2010 Mosel, as the acids are ferocious and the ones I've tried in the last 12 months up to Auslese level are unbalanced.

But you may be right about the very top end - Beerenauslese TBA or Eiswein with enough sugar to counter the massive TA's could make it to 2060,

felixp21 wrote:Leoville Las Cases
Latour
Petrus
d'Yquem
Faiveley Clos des Cortons
De Vogue Musigny
DRC Romanee Conti
Penfold's Grange
Bartolo Mascarello
Giacosa Red Label

.... all the above should be peak drinking in another 40 years if cellared correctly.

I guess we should expect Felix to produce a list like this! Mostly overpriced trophy wines.

The only wine on this list I would actually recommend ( for non billionaires) is the Faiveley Clos des Cortons. Lovely GC burgundy and a lot cheaper than many other GCs. Great vintage in burgundy and well worth looking for some of the proven long agers (like Faiveley, Bachelet, Gouges, Dugat-Py etc)

Depending on price the 2010 Chave Hermitage is a good bet from Nth Rhone.

Lots of options in Barolo; Cavalotto, Massolino, Burlotto, Vietti, Brovia etc etc. Jamie Bahrain can give you better recs here.

Auslese and Beerenauslese Rieslings are strong candidates, I like the 2010s myself and think the acidity will actually help them age

Brodie

brodie wrote:
Auslese and Beerenauslese Rieslings are strong candidates, I like the 2010s myself and think the acidity will actually help them age

Brodie

I hope you're right in spite of my caution - I have a few Goldkapsels from 2010 but nothing BA or higher. The one maker whose 2010s I havent even looked at is JJ Prum - Im more hopeful for those than anyone elses,

2010 Brunello di Montalcino Reservas should last a fair crack.
2010 was a "vintage of the century" for Brunello (like all the rest of them!)
https://www.winespectator.com/vintage-charts ... montalcino

asajoseph wrote:

Mahmoud Ali wrote:If anyone wants to cellar wine for a very long time in a fridge, they should make sure it is in a wine fridge and not in a regular household refrigerator. Over the long term vibration and low humidity make have adverse effects.

Mahmoud.

The Vibration is a good call - but surely humidity not really relevant for screwcaps?

Good point, I hadn't thought of screwcaps, but then again almost all my wines, including the ones I mentioned above, are under cork so it almost never factors into my thinking. However, if you are thinking about the Bordeaux, or any other European wine from 2010, the advice is relevant.

From the Wine Enthusiast:

"Temperature, humidity, and vibration are the key distinguishing factors between conventional refrigerators and wine refrigerators. Without delving into the fascinating world of evaporator coils and sensors, it’s easy just to say that a regular fridge is designed to drop temperature rapidly and drive out humidity, whereas a wine refrigerator/cellar is designed to lower temperature gradually and maintain a level of humidity conducive to wine storage. Essentially, they have two different functions. An everyday fridge is made to keep a wide variety of perishables cold and dry, so salad, bread, baloney, and beer all live happily together in an average temperature of 40°F—too cold for the fragile makeup of your wine, and too dry to keep corks moist. Why is it important to keep corks moist? A soy-stained carton of leftover Chinese may be one answer.

Prevailing odors, in addition to cold and dry conditions, can adversely affect wine in a regular refrigerator. It’s possible to get a hint of Kung Pao Shrimp in your Pinot Noir if left on the same shelf too long. How could this happen? If the cork in your Pinot bottle shrinks and becomes porous, due to the lack of humidity, and lets surrounding odors seep into your wine. Remember, conventional refrigerators are made to suppress humidity, not sustain it. High-quality wine cellars such as EuroCave are engineered to maintain ideal humidity levels so corks stay moist and impermeable, not allowing air to seep in and spoil the wine.

Another “enemy of wine” present in conventional refrigerators is vibration. Unlike thermoelectric wine refrigerators, all-purpose refrigerators run on compressors which cause vibrations that interrupt wine’s maturation process, not to mention make a mechanized racket. Some wine cellars and non-thermoelectric wine refrigerators run on compressors too, but they have a special vibration absorption system to reduce the impact of tremors and noise, allowing wine to mature at a natural pace."

Cheers ................. Mahmoud.

If storage is sound
Bordeaux
D’yquem
Vogue

No problems

michel wrote:If storage is sound
Bordeaux
D’yquem
Vogue

No problems

Good to see the Burgundy master back

felixp21 wrote: Bartolo Mascarello
Giacosa Red Label

.... all the above should be peak drinking in another 40 years if cellared correctly.

Bartolo Mascarello 2010 is a beautiful wine. To drink it in 50 years is a mistake . I’ve had the wine many time’s and I’ve had their wines at 50 years many times too. MT has brought a stylistic elegance versus the old fashioned brute survivability of Bartolo’s winemaking . I’ve a six pack in Australia for 2030-2040.

Giacosa red label from Serralunga would do the job . Plenty of robust Serralunga options. Asili? Perhaps but again wasting the best of the wine in the wait .

Cappellano is under $200 in Australia! Bizarre frankly ! Now there’s a solid bet. Had their wines back to the 1920’s.

All the above options still cheaper the Grange & HofG I’m guessing ?

Still think cooler cellar temps and screw cap an economical option

In addition to the Wynns JR and BL, I would add the 2010 Wynns Alex '88. Had a bottle last Friday night, very dense colour, young, good structure, will go as long as the BL and JR, if not longer imo.

Thanks. I have added some more wines to the list, I've put questions marks on the ones where I can't easily determine a location to source them from.

michel wrote:If storage is sound
Bordeaux
D’yquem
Vogue

No problems

Storage is between 14-16 degrees in a commercial storage facility. Unfortunately I do not have access to a colder storage facility (or know of one in Sydney?). What is Vogue?

TiggerK wrote:d'Yquem, Cos, LLC, Mt-E and Riddoch my picks from the ones you have in mind. For much more money, Ch Margaux or Latour....

I do not wish to spend much more than $500 a bottle. In a perfect world I should buy three bottles, assess one in twenty years, and if on track, drink the next in another twenty. The last one can pay for the funeral.

I am leaning more and more towards the Mt Edelstone and Riddoch based on the feedback so far.

Rossco wrote:Like a few others have mentioned on other posts previously, I haven't personally had an aged Cullen that I was
impressed with. And we are talking about wines that are only 10-15+ years old...... not the 40+ years you are looking at.

I can see that it is a polarising wine. Yet, Halliday has the 2010 at "not less than 30 years of cellaring".

phillisc wrote:cue the coming hysteria is Wendouree

Would love some Wendouree given the hype (I've never tried one!) but not so easily available now.

Alex F wrote: What is Vogue?

de Vogue Musigny - very long lived and expensive Grand Cru burgundy. Definitely above your $500/bottle limit

brodie wrote:

Alex F wrote: What is Vogue?

de Vogue Musigny - very long lived and expensive Grand Cru burgundy. Definitely above your $500/bottle limit

Cheers. I've never had aged burgundy so I am not sure I will like it or whether it is worth the monetary risk to find out in 40 years. If they keep appreciating though... hmm