The Auswine Forum

Reading through the Bass Phillip thread and the discussion about whether they make Burgundian or faulty Pinot Noir, I couldn't help wondering who people on this forum think are making Australia's best Pinot Noir, whether traditonal or modern.

I'll throw in my only two examples of a good Australian Pinot, a couple of wines I bought on spec, cellared, and opened when about 15 to 20 years of age: a Best's 1998, and a Coldstream Hill's 2001. Both matured into a lovely, mature pinot, full of interest and pleasure. I'm not saying they are representative of the best but rather that they both rewarded my risk, and in both instances wished I had another bottle. Today all I have in my cellar is a De Bortoli 2006 Yarra Valley Pinot, and again, I have high hopes for it.

Mahmoud.

Yeringberg.
Tolpuddle.

and, IMO, (of course, with due respect to everyone) Bass Phillip never made anything like a Burgundian Pinot Noir. Nor could you expect it to, the climate might be remotely similar (not really) but the soil/terroir is nothing like the Cote d'Or.
the wines are generally fat, quite blowsy, lack drive and focus and are filled with a weird quince top note. They do have a pretty decent nose, though.

Bindi and Curly Flat for me. Hard to separate these. Both age brilliantly.

I purchased two 2017 CF PN today

2015 Mount Mary and 2017 Yabby Lake SV. Top notch.

Curly Flat.

Okay - I am ready for the flame throwers.

Mt Mary - older bottles, 20+ years in the bottle can be magical, I think this is hit and miss and depends a lot on the vintage.
Yarra Yering - after 15+ years in the bottle they are wonderful. Maybe not particularly "correct" or burgundian, but damn they are good

Do have a soft spot for Bindi as well

brodie

Mount Mary for me. Had the 1994 and 2004 late last year. 1994 holding up nicely and the 2004 outstandig with years to go.

ByFarr for me
Nick (and Gary) are doing great things.

Honourable mentions:
Domain Epis
Home Hill
Chatto

Yep, Bindi and Curly Flat rate.. but I'm going local.
Hurley Vineyard Garamond and Loadstone as counterparts. The 2010's drank early this year were outstanding.

Bindi Block 5 for me too.

I'm surprised that there has been no mention of Coldstream Hills or Kooyong.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:I'm surprised that there has been no mention of Coldstream Hills or Kooyong.

I'm not.

Haven't had many of the 'iconic' Australian Pinot Noirs...but these are my highlights:
By Farr - Sangreal and Tout Pres
Bindi - OV and Block 5
Curley Flat - yes, need to revisit
Main Ridge Estate - Half Acre (loved the wild 2017)
When I visited earlier this year Tasmania I did a nice tasting at Pooley and I really liked their Pinots.
Once had a 2016 Bass Phillip Premium at a Langtons Tasting - it was ok but not outstanding
Mahmoud, I really liked Kooyong PNs when they were made by Sandro Mosele, but haven't had one for ages.
Cheers, Mario

Tapanappa 'Foggy Hill' and his new 'Difinitus' are both tidy wines.

By Farr.
Gembrook Hill for Yarra Valley.

I like Curly Flat a lot, terrific wines, just seen higher heights with others. I probably need to try some aged based on this thread.

I haven't tried any of the top old-guard Yarra - Mt Mary; Yeringberg etc, nor Bindi, and my ignorance here is not providing any semblance of bliss.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:I'm surprised that there has been no mention of Coldstream Hills or Kooyong.

Nothing wrong with either. I own a few Kooyongs. Maybe Coldstream suffers a bit from being part of the TWE portfolio although the Deer Farm pinot can still be excellent. Neither are quite top of the tree though.

A lot has changed for pinot in Australia in recent years, and there are a whole lot more high quality examples about. I know on the Mornington Peninsula for example, there was a lot of planting happening in the late 90s and early 2000s so those vines now have sufficient age to produce more high quality fruit so we've seen a lot of producers emerge or improve. I'd say that has happened in other places too, especially Tasmania.

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Sean wrote:Also a lot more grafting of vines over to different varieties or just off the original rootstock.

In the 70s and 80s there was much more Cabernet on the peninsula. A lot of that has gone now. It’s all about pinot and trying different clones. A lot of MV6 however and it is probably the workhorse of pinot there. Really just getting interesting over the last twenty years, and early days when it comes to vine age, viti, methodology, etc.

The big worry is phylloxera. They have it already. At one of the wineries, I was told some of the bigger growers are racing to change over the rootstocks.

There’s an interesting study now looking at pinot on its own rootstock v other -

[url]https://www.wineaustralia.com/news/articles/ ... pinot-noir[/url]

IAre you sure about the Mornington and Phylloxera, I hadnt heard anything, I thought they were a PEZ. WHere did you hear that?

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No mention of the Lucy Margaux Monomeith?

BP Reserve I had fairly recently was very good. Like Grand Cru good.

Fan of Mount Mary, Main Ridge (prefer The Acre), Hillcrest, I liked the Vinteloper Premium one I had recently, Lethbridge Park.

Looked at my notes over the years and most of the BP I've had has been OK (i.e not faulty), apart from one that someone said was let down by some VA.

One of my notes I said...

"2010 Bass Phillip Premium Pinot Noir - this went some way in trying to rescue the image of Aussie Pinot Noir. Gamey, and restrained opulence, cherries, dark fruits with good length and structure."

Best Aussie Pinot I have had was the day Stephen George from Galah Wines (home brand Wendouree) and of course Ashton Hills had lined up 20 vintages when I dropped in mid week 25 years ago. He knew I did not like Pinot, but said have a look at these. There were some magnificent wines, but apart from Pinot Chard Meunier sparking blends, don't have a single bottle in the cellar.
I'll go quietly now for fear of being a Luddite

Cheers craig

I would have picked a producer from the Yarra Valley or Macedon. However, back in November 2018 I blind tasted a 2008 By Farr Pinot Noir Tout Pres with a group of wine aficionados. Everyone at the table picked it as Burgundy. It changed my perspective on that producer and showed me what a decade in the cellar can do. Not only did cellaring improve the wine, it transformed it from a New World style to a classic Old World style.

[url=https://postimg.cc/nsFVDNkY][img]https://i.postimg.cc/nsFVDNkY/IMG-20181116-192914.jpg[/img][/url]

I really like By Farr but think they need ~10 years

"2010 Bass Phillip Premium Pinot Noir - this went some way in trying to rescue the image of Aussie Pinot Noir. Gamey, and restrained opulence, cherries, dark fruits with good length and structure."


Dave, we took two bottles of this to a Winemakers dinner in Beaune a few years ago (actually, I think I may have written it up on here somewhere).

HalF A dozen winemakers present, including two very big names from the Cote d'Or. A couple of Australia's best chefs were on our trip, and cooked an unbelievable dinner "Aussie style"
The winemakers LOVED the food, but actually had to have a chuckle at the Aussie attempt at Pinot Noir. In the company of a multitude of decent Premier Cru wines from the Nuits, the Bass Phillip were an absolute embarrassment. Plain awful, neither bottle corked.

I agree that the BP Reserve can have GC quality, but that is only a reflection of how poor some Echezeaux and CdV wines can be lol.

Ozzie W wrote:back in November 2018 I blind tasted a 2008 By Farr Pinot Noir Tout Pres with a group of wine aficionados. Everyone at the table picked it as Burgundy. It changed my perspective on that producer and showed me what a decade in the cellar can do. Not only did cellaring improve the wine, it transformed it from a New World style to a classic Old World style.

Hauntingly beautiful Wine that vintage.
Absolutely stunning and will remember that wine forever.
For me it cemented the ByFarr winery as the best makers of pinot in Australia and why I voted for them.

OK I normally stay out of Pinot debates since it is not my thing and I think everyone knows my views on whether all roads end in Burgundy but my observations:

1) How many times do people say "this is the best Aussie Pinot... its almost like Burgundy / like an old world wine / etc" ... seriously, what is the point of making a wine 12,000 miles away from Burgundy in an entirely different climate and that is your best selling point? I agree, before air planes were invented that might have been a handy trick, but really.

2) Of the names mentioned, I had a Pooley 2011 and a Hoddles Creek 1er 2012 in February, both were pretty good. Both cost probably twice the equivalent Aussie quality of Shiraz or Cabernet. Are they worth it? No, but then even in France half the Bourgogne isn't worth what it costs either (and I dread to think about Aussie prices).

3) I am not surprised no mention of Lucy Margaux, the couple I tried were technically faulty. I am not a natural wine fan. Natural should not be an excuse for lazy or technically incorrect. I am quite sure some of the avant garde Aussie Pinot fits this category.

4) We are debating between about 25 decent Aussie Pinots. Some Burgundy producers make that number of wines themselves from all the different sub-regions/vineyards, or lieux-dits. I don't know if that is good or bad (except I do know it is good marketing, and I fully encourage the Barolo and Barberesco peepz to keep following the same path, as they are)... actually I do think it is a bit ridiculous and invites wine snobbery of the kind "oh darling, you should know of course that no truly good red wine ever comes from Marsannay, you really should go all of 5 miles away to Gevrey-Chambertin before even thinking of buying". But that is just me.

felixp21 wrote:"2010 Bass Phillip Premium Pinot Noir - this went some way in trying to rescue the image of Aussie Pinot Noir. Gamey, and restrained opulence, cherries, dark fruits with good length and structure."


Dave, we took two bottles of this to a Winemakers dinner in Beaune a few years ago (actually, I think I may have written it up on here somewhere).

HalF A dozen winemakers present, including two very big names from the Cote d'Or. A couple of Australia's best chefs were on our trip, and cooked an unbelievable dinner "Aussie style"
The winemakers LOVED the food, but actually had to have a chuckle at the Aussie attempt at Pinot Noir. In the company of a multitude of decent Premier Cru wines from the Nuits, the Bass Phillip were an absolute embarrassment. Plain awful, neither bottle corked.

I agree that the BP Reserve can have GC quality, but that is only a reflection of how poor some Echezeaux and CdV wines can be lol.

That's one anecdotal incident....Served blind with other burgs we've seen BPs fool lots of people...on many different occasions with different groups, different countries...Sometimes it is more obvious it isn't Burgundy..sometimes something can be just wrong with the wine...but other times it falls into the category of: it tastes like Burgundy but it is difficult to pin down where it is from in Burgundy...which is often THE clue.

I don't think they're worth the money but they're pretty good wines....which I'm basing purely off my experience of having had it blind.

By way of clarification, and partly to address what Sam had to say, when I use traditional vs modern, or Burgundian vs modern, I don't mean to suggest that an Australian pinot ought to be like a Burgundy, rather that it might reflect a style but maintain it's identity and terroir. The 2001 Coldstream Hills that I referred to in my original post was clearly a new world wine but at about 20 years of age it expressed a mature pinosity that resembled Burgundy in its texture, complexity elegance and weight.

Mahmoud.