The Auswine Forum

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At least it wasn't bought by a major corporate who would then likely stuff it up.

I've never understood what all the fuss is about with this producer. I don't think I've ever had a good one.

I am with you on this Oz.

So much hype, so little delivered.

I've had both kinds - some stunning wines, and some very ordinary juice too.

I have some really nice bottles but also wines badly affected by bacterial spoilage. I found them to be a bit of lottery and poor value when you consider the prices being asked. I have been told that the winery hygiene leaves a lot to be desired.

Brodie

if ever someone needed a case study on how important marketing is, Bass Phillip is your go to project!!!

laughably priced, this whole project smelled of Dutch Tulips from the start.
I have been to countless blind tastings of Aussie PN, and almost an equal number of International PN tastings over the past 30 years, and never, ever, ever has a BP pinot stood out. Incredibly, Ol' Phil actually release his 05 pinots, which were completely faulty, almost certainly having occurred in the winery. Enough said.
The fact that (somehow) James Halliday liked him (I guess somebody had to ) meant that the points chasers and label buyers would propagate the myth for years to come.

I was on the list for 5-6 years back in the 90's, when the premium was a decent wine for the price, but soon discovered that after a decade in the cellar, wines like Yeringberg and Bindi were simply killing it, which stopped any future purchases for me.

The Emperor with no clothes, if ever there was one.

I think Bass Philip is pretty good...they can be a bit wild but generally they're pretty good...one of the few "good" AU Pinots out there IMO..

But stupidly priced...Sometimes their low ends can be decent value...

Great news. Plenty of room atop with Grange & HofG as a Luxury Australia export for wealthy Asia.

Fourrier's involvement and Singaporean investment will be fascinating to watch.

JamieBahrain wrote:Great news. Plenty of room atop with Grange & HofG as a Luxury Australia export for wealthy Asia.

Fourrier's involvement and Singaporean investment will be fascinating to watch.

indeed, Fourrier has worked so hard to promote his brand in Sing/HK the last 5 years. I suspect the prices of BP will become stratospheric. Smart move by him, he well knows the drinkers from those two cities are the greatest label-chasers in the World.

felixp21 wrote:he well knows the drinkers from those two cities are the greatest label-chasers in the World.

Hahahaha.Indeed! It's great drinking other peoples' Fourrier. Some astonishing collections here.

On a group what's app with HKG wine friends ( which includes the big cellars ) I mentioned a sale where Adelina shiraz mataro was about $20AUD a bottle locally and a supposed foil for popular Wendouree. It dawned on me afterward that is just too cheap a wine for some of my friends to drink! Felt like a homeless person in their company after my suggestion of a $20 wine.

felixp21 wrote: the drinkers from those two cities are the greatest label-chasers in the World.

Well.. I reckon the Silicon Valley squillionaires paying $1000/bottle for Napa Valley Cabs could give them a run for their money on label chasing.

JamieBahrain wrote:

felixp21 wrote:he well knows the drinkers from those two cities are the greatest label-chasers in the World.

Hahahaha.Indeed! It's great drinking other peoples' Fourrier. Some astonishing collections here.

On a group what's app with HKG wine friends ( which includes the big cellars ) I mentioned a sale where Adelina shiraz mataro was about $20AUD a bottle locally and a supposed foil for popular Wendouree. It dawned on me afterward that is just too cheap a wine for some of my friends to drink! Felt like a homeless person in their company after my suggestion of a $20 wine.

Bit like a few punters here I reckon
Cheers craig

I love well chosen $20 wines, they often provide lovely drinking twenty years down the line, if you like that sort of thing. The real art of buying is getting the $40 wine for $20, and for that you need patience and opportunity.

Ozzie W wrote:I've never understood what all the fuss is about with this producer. I don't think I've ever had a good one.

Ozzie, I’m with you on this one, lots of dirty, faulty, oxidised wines, can’t remember a good one, mjs

JamieBahrain wrote:

felixp21 wrote:he well knows the drinkers from those two cities are the greatest label-chasers in the World.

Hahahaha.Indeed! It's great drinking other peoples' Fourrier. Some astonishing collections here.

On a group what's app with HKG wine friends ( which includes the big cellars ) I mentioned a sale where Adelina shiraz mataro was about $20AUD a bottle locally and a supposed foil for popular Wendouree. It dawned on me afterward that is just too cheap a wine for some of my friends to drink! Felt like a homeless person in their company after my suggestion of a $20 wine.

Adelina Shiraz Mataro is a fantastic wine and incredible VFM. Stands up to wines 2 to 3 times the price. Perhaps serve it blind to see the reactions.

Ozzie W wrote:I've never understood what all the fuss is about with this producer. I don't think I've ever had a good one.

They're one of the few Aussie producers of Pinot Noir that manage a traditional Burgundian style IMO (wild, savoury-fruited, elegant and with suave tannin texture).

If by faulty, people here are referring to Brett and VA, then I agree they are, I just don't consider that faulty in Bass Phillip. I'd argue that is one of the defining features of the Bass Philip style (and actually, to my tastes, better for it) - it can also be argued that it's a part of the traditional Burgundian style of Pinot.

Bass Phillip can certainly be hit and miss in terms of oxidation/flatness, which makes them a risky proposition. But actually, a lot of red Burgundy for the same price (Australian retail) is of lower quality and/or can be risky (dull/unbalanced/etc), so I'm not sure that their pricing is entirely unexpected for the style (expensive though the wines are).

I am struggling to think of other Aussie producers of Pinot Noir that can offer the same wild and savoury style with Burgundian-like elegance and tannin-texture. There are plenty of good Aussie producers of Pinot Noir, but I don't think there are many that provide those hallmarks for that style, especially at significantly lower prices. I await the flames here, of course

dingozegan wrote:

Ozzie W wrote:I've never understood what all the fuss is about with this producer. I don't think I've ever had a good one.

They're one of the few Aussie producers of Pinot Noir that manage a traditional Burgundian style IMO (wild, savoury-fruited, elegant and with suave tannin texture).

If by faulty, people here are referring to Brett and VA, then I agree they are, I just don't consider that faulty in Bass Phillip. I'd argue that is one of the defining features of the Bass Philip style (and actually, to my tastes, better for it) - it can also be argued that it's a part of the traditional Burgundian style of Pinot.

Bass Phillip can certainly be hit and miss in terms of oxidation/flatness, which makes them a risky proposition. But actually, a lot of red Burgundy for the same price (Australian retail) is of lower quality and/or can be risky (dull/unbalanced/etc), so I'm not sure that their pricing is entirely unexpected for the style (expensive though the wines are).

I am struggling to think of other Aussie producers of Pinot Noir that can offer the same wild and savoury style with Burgundian-like elegance and tannin-texture. There are plenty of good Aussie producers of Pinot Noir, but I don't think there are many that provide those hallmarks for that style, especially at significantly lower prices. I await the flames here, of course

Respectfully disagree.

It is drawing a long bow to compare the savoury aspect of Burgundy to wine that is simply faulty, which has been the case with several of the Bass Phillip wine I have tried.

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Benchmark wrote:

dingozegan wrote:

Ozzie W wrote:I've never understood what all the fuss is about with this producer. I don't think I've ever had a good one.

They're one of the few Aussie producers of Pinot Noir that manage a traditional Burgundian style IMO (wild, savoury-fruited, elegant and with suave tannin texture).

If by faulty, people here are referring to Brett and VA, then I agree they are, I just don't consider that faulty in Bass Phillip. I'd argue that is one of the defining features of the Bass Philip style (and actually, to my tastes, better for it) - it can also be argued that it's a part of the traditional Burgundian style of Pinot.

Bass Phillip can certainly be hit and miss in terms of oxidation/flatness, which makes them a risky proposition. But actually, a lot of red Burgundy for the same price (Australian retail) is of lower quality and/or can be risky (dull/unbalanced/etc), so I'm not sure that their pricing is entirely unexpected for the style (expensive though the wines are).

I am struggling to think of other Aussie producers of Pinot Noir that can offer the same wild and savoury style with Burgundian-like elegance and tannin-texture. There are plenty of good Aussie producers of Pinot Noir, but I don't think there are many that provide those hallmarks for that style, especially at significantly lower prices. I await the flames here, of course

Respectfully disagree.

It is drawing a long bow to compare the savoury aspect of Burgundy to wine that is simply faulty, which has been the case with several of the Bass Phillip wine I have tried.

Sorry, but also respectfully, I struggle to think of one BP I have had (and there have been a few) that were not faulty. That's different to savoury. I would also suggest that I have had a fair selection of burgundies from say late 90's to mid 2010 over the last few years that may have been savoury, but hardly any faults apart from maybe one or two TCA affected bottles. Sorry, I just don't get BP

dingozegan wrote:

Ozzie W wrote:I've never understood what all the fuss is about with this producer. I don't think I've ever had a good one.

They're one of the few Aussie producers of Pinot Noir that manage a traditional Burgundian style IMO (wild, savoury-fruited, elegant and with suave tannin texture).

To try and understand where you are coming from, can you name a few Burgundy producers that you classify as traditional?

Benchmark wrote:It is drawing a long bow to compare the savoury aspect of Burgundy to wine that is simply faulty, which has been the case with several of the Bass Phillip wine I have tried.

mjs wrote:I struggle to think of one BP I have had (and there have been a few) that were not faulty. That's different to savoury.

I'm not equating savoury with "faulty". I'm saying the Bass Phillip style is a savoury style of Pinot in that it's not ripe-fruited in aroma/flavour and its fruit is wild in character (think wild cherry rather than a cultivated cherry, for example) - it has this character irrespective of classically-defined wine faults like Brett/excessive VA/particular Lactobacillus infections. In that sense (and in its suave tannin texture), it is similar to traditional Burgundy. I'm not saying it's exactly like Burgundy, I'm saying it's more like traditional style Burgundy than other Aussie Pinots.

Regarding faults, I think it also helps to be more specific than just saying "faulty". Brett was reasonably common in red Burgundy of past decades and many people quite like what it added to the wines. A fault like oxidation is a different story - I don't know of any wine lover who enjoys oxidised Burgundy.

Ozzie W wrote:To try and understand where you are coming from, can you name a few Burgundy producers that you classify as traditional?

Perhaps I shouldn't use the term traditional, because in all honesty, I'm not sure that there are many of that style around anymore. The fruit tends to be much riper/sweeter in profile these days and I don't think that's just climate change, but also a stylistic change (and especially reflected in the wines imported to Australia). To try and answer your query though, off the top of my head, definitely Amiot and Maniere-Noirot (90's), Fourrier (90's and early 00's), possibly De Montille and Rousseau (90's and 00's) but I question more recent vintages.

And reciprocally, would you mind naming a few Aussie producers that you think provide a wild and savoury style of Pinot (especially any that can develop that suave tannin texture that great aged Burgundy tends to have)?

I find the lauded Aussies Pinots like Yeringberg, Coldstream Hills and even Bindi are quite sweet-fruited. They aren't very savoury (though more savoury Pinots do exist in Australia), and they also tend to lack the elegance and suave tannin texture of the traditional Burgundy style. I tend to think that certain Geelong and Orange producers (Bannockburn, By Farr, Lethbridge, Colmar and Patina come to mind) do a more wild and savoury style than the the lauded Pinot's of the Yarra, though they often lack the elegance and texture of great Pinot, and they are not like Burgundy.

I am not sure if there are examples of Australian Pinot that meet the 'traditional' style.

Not sure why you ask. No one has said there were any or made the comparison.

Without getting into the quagmire of Burgundy comparisons, perhaps there's two styles? Fruit driven and the more earthy, textural, sapid expressions ( sapidita`for the Barolistas )

Benchmark wrote:I am not sure if there are examples of Australian Pinot that meet the 'traditional' style {of Burgundy, presumably?}.
Not sure why you ask. No one has said there were any or made the comparison.

I didn't say that. Please read again carefully (emphasis added):

dingozegan wrote:would you mind naming a few Aussie producers that you think provide a wild and savoury style of Pinot (especially any that can develop that suave tannin texture that great aged Burgundy tends to have)?

I then named a few I considered to be in a wild and savoury style (despite not having suave tannin texture).

While I've not been so impressed in the past with the same wine (mainly from a value perspective), I had another BP Reserve 2004 recently which made me grudgingly admit that they can make world class Pinot, albeit the bottles do seem extremely variable. This was a truly excellent bottle, served blind, and had experienced tasters guessing high quality aged Red Burgundy. Slightly fruit forward perhaps, but no more than many Dujac or Rousseau Grand Cru's are these days.

While each country obviously has it's own terroir, I suspect Burgundy is the standard to which most (not all) New World Pinot Noir producers aspire. But I could count on one hand the Aussie or NZ Pinots that I've had which I would classify as 'properly' in a pleasing Burgundian style for my tastes. Usually a particular vintage at a particular age from a variety of producers, i.e I couldn't single any particular producer out.

And while Brett may be classed as a fault, the right manifestation of Brett (SO many different flavours that Brett can show from Black Pepper, Smoked Meat, Coffee and Roses to BandAid, Chlorine and Sewer Gas) in the right amount is a desirable aspect of many wines for me, and I'm confident that most tasters here have enjoyed wines with a touch of Brett in them at times, but that's slightly off topic sorry.

And yes, plenty of different styles, fruit driven, stalk influenced, earthy, dark fruit vs red fruit etc etc. The magic of Pinot I suppose!

dingozegan wrote:

Ozzie W wrote:To try and understand where you are coming from, can you name a few Burgundy producers that you classify as traditional?

Perhaps I shouldn't use the term traditional, because in all honesty, I'm not sure that there are many of that style around anymore. The fruit tends to be much riper/sweeter in profile these days and I don't think that's just climate change, but also a stylistic change (and especially reflected in the wines imported to Australia). To try and answer your query though, off the top of my head, definitely Amiot and Maniere-Noirot (90's), Fourrier (90's and early 00's), possibly De Montille and Rousseau (90's and 00's) but I question more recent vintages.

You really lost me when you said Rousseau. To me, Bass Phillip is the antithesis of Rousseau. Let's just agree to disagree here.

dingozegan wrote:And reciprocally, would you mind naming a few Aussie producers that you think provide a wild and savoury style of Pinot (especially any that can develop that suave tannin texture that great aged Burgundy tends to have)?

By Farr. I just posted about it in the " The Best Australian Pinot ... ?" thread. A table of 9 tasted it blind at a wine function. We all thought it was Burgundy.

dingozegan wrote:I find the lauded Aussies Pinots like Yeringberg, Coldstream Hills and even Bindi are quite sweet-fruited. They aren't very savoury (though more savoury Pinots do exist in Australia), and they also tend to lack the elegance and suave tannin texture of the traditional Burgundy style. I tend to think that certain Geelong and Orange producers (Bannockburn, By Farr, Lethbridge, Colmar and Patina come to mind) do a more wild and savoury style than the the lauded Pinot's of the Yarra, though they often lack the elegance and texture of great Pinot, and they are not like Burgundy.

Seems we agree about Geelong Pinot.

dingozegan wrote: (think wild cherry rather than a cultivated cherry, for example)

Sorry, what?

I am not sure I have had a wild cherry, but according to Treegrowing.org they "taste just as good, but more bitter"?

sjw_11 wrote:

dingozegan wrote: (think wild cherry rather than a cultivated cherry, for example)

Sorry, what?
I am not sure I have had a wild cherry, but according to Treegrowing.org they "taste just as good, but more bitter"?

OK, so you can't really know what I mean then. They're less sweet, less "fruity" and, yes, also more bitter. It's more the lack of sweetness/ripeness of cultivated fruit, and "fruity" aroma (esters), plus a certain "wild" vegetation quality (I realise that also might not make sense to you - if not, just forget it) that I am referring to when I talk about wild and savoury.

Ozzie W wrote:You really lost me when you said Rousseau. To me, Bass Phillip is the antithesis of Rousseau. Let's just agree to disagree here.

Well, I said possibly for a reason. But I am still interested to know why you think so - in what way do you see them as opposite?

Ozzie W wrote:By Farr. I just posted about it in the " The Best Australian Pinot ... ?" thread. A table of 9 tasted it blind at a wine function. We all thought it was Burgundy.

Yep, I can understand that, for some of the reasons I've mentioned previously in this thread.

dingozegan wrote:

Ozzie W wrote:You really lost me when you said Rousseau. To me, Bass Phillip is the antithesis of Rousseau. Let's just agree to disagree here.

Well, I said possibly for a reason. But I am still interested to know why you think so - in what way do you see them as opposite?

If I had to summarise, I'd say that in general:

• Rousseau - sublime drinking and makes you go "wow" every time; gets better as they age
• Bass Phillip - unbalanced, faulty; gets worse as they age