The Auswine Forum

Hi all

I have a dinner in the US with a few people next month. They are all into their wines and so far the 3 others have confirmed that they will be bringing a Haut-Brion, Mouton and Cheval-Blanc to dinner (all good vintages from the 80s/90s). They have asked that I bring a good Australian red.

With a few exceptions (Wendouree, Marisu), I don't drink SA shiraz anymore (so a Grange or HoG is out) and so am thinking I will bring an Australian cabernet or cabernet blend which *hopefully* is not completely put in the shade by the other two bottles.

I was thinking of one of the following with a bit of age since I have them in the cellar, but would be open to tracking something down:

- Yarra Yering Dry Red No. 1 or even Carrodus
- Cullen Diana (although have been a bit disappointed by some pre-2006 bottles I've had)
- Wendouree Cab or Cab Malbec
- Moss Wood

Perhaps this is another way of asking "what is Australia's best cabernet or cabernet blend?".

Any thoughts appreciated.

Mount Mary Quintet would match nicely with mature Bordeaux. A Penfolds Bin 707 will stand out significantly. An aged Wynns John Riddoch might be a decent option too.

George Krashos wrote:Mount Mary Quintet would match nicely with mature Bordeaux. A Penfolds Bin 707 will stand out significantly. An aged Wynns John Riddoch might be a decent option too.

+1
Would certainly look at a Quintet, Carrodus is a bit young, but a number 1 yes, if not a JR, find an 82 Black label
Sound great
cheers craig

Take Cullen if you want to highlight a wine with an inflated reputation

Good suggestions. I'd add Jack Mann to the list for WA.

Bring an older Wendouree..

The other wines mentioned are all relatively easy to obtain in the US...an older Wendouree Cab or CM would be incredibly difficult to source...especially if older...

It will also provide a different experience..whereas the others will be like one of many similar wines.

I’d also throw an aged Lakes Folly into the equation.

dave vino wrote:I’d also throw an aged Lakes Folly into the equation.

A risky option? A high risk of Brett in older vintages, which many people don't like.

If anyone is likely to be cocky about guessing the Aussie wines, it would be great if one of those old tannic Taltarni Cabernet Sauvignon wines was in the lineup.

haha, great call Ian. I had a magnum of 78 Taltarni Cab for Christmas a year or two ago, it was drop dead sensational.

Anyway suggestions:
1. If you want to beat the pants off anything they bring, take along a pristine bottle of 63 Mildara Cabernet Sauvignon, trust me, it will smash them.

2. If you want to bring along a $20 wine that tastes almost as good as classified Bordeaux, take along a pristine bottle of 2004 Maxwell Lime Cave Cabernet Sauvignon (a one-off freak) and watch them not believe you when it is revealed.

3. If you want to take along a wine that will taste like glorified dish-water in comparison to the Bordeaux, take along a pristine bottle of any vintage of Mount Mary or Cullen. Better still, take a bottle of 707 to use as topping on their ice cream.

4. If you want to take along a bottle of wine that will genuinely show them that Australia can make profound, age-worthy Cabernet-based wines, take along a pristine bottle of 96 Moss Wood Cabernet Sauvignon. Whilst not Bordeaux, this is a World-class wine that will astound them.

felixp21 wrote:3. If you want to take along a wine that will taste like glorified dish-water in comparison to the Bordeaux, take along a pristine bottle of any vintage of Mount Mary or Cullen. Better still, take a bottle of 707 to use as topping on their ice cream.

Cullen more often than not disappoints me, but I disagree with your assessment of Mount Mary. I've had mostly good ones.

felixp21 wrote: 4. If you want to take along a bottle of wine that will genuinely show them that Australia can make profound, age-worthy Cabernet-based wines, take along a pristine bottle of 96 Moss Wood Cabernet Sauvignon. Whilst not Bordeaux, this is a World-class wine that will astound them.

If I had to pick one producer to showcase Aussie Cabernet, it would be Moss Wood. They're almost always fantastic. 100% agree with you here.

Ozzie W wrote:

felixp21 wrote:3. If you want to take along a wine that will taste like glorified dish-water in comparison to the Bordeaux, take along a pristine bottle of any vintage of Mount Mary or Cullen. Better still, take a bottle of 707 to use as topping on their ice cream.

Cullen more often than not disappoints me, but I disagree with your assessment of Mount Mary. I've had mostly good ones.

felixp21 wrote: 4. If you want to take along a bottle of wine that will genuinely show them that Australia can make profound, age-worthy Cabernet-based wines, take along a pristine bottle of 96 Moss Wood Cabernet Sauvignon. Whilst not Bordeaux, this is a World-class wine that will astound them.

If I had to pick one producer to showcase Aussie Cabernet, it would be Moss Wood. They're almost always fantastic. 100% agree with you here.

Hi Ozzie.

We had the 96 moss wood a few weeks ago and it was fabulous, this has been drinking well for a number of years and will for few more.

I think the only Mount Mary that comes close is the 1990 and maybe the 1984 in really good condition.

Cheers Con.

What about Coonawarra? I know some have a preference for MR, thinking it delivers Australia's best Cab, but I think Coonawarra can show distinctive Aussie character and the best can show beautifully with age.

Ozzie W wrote:

dave vino wrote:I’d also throw an aged Lakes Folly into the equation.

A risky option? A high risk of Brett in older vintages, which many people don't like.

Then perhaps they shouldn't like older vintages of Bordeaux either?! I think an LF is a good point of difference for Cab: it's not quite what people expect for Aussie Cab, and aged bottles can be particularly enjoyable.

Mildara 63 is a Coonawarra wine, so you can bring that along

Of course, personal preference comes into it, but I have had pretty much all the "standard" all-time great Australian wines (I'm know there are various Maurice O'Shea wines I haven't seen, although his most famous I have) and the Mildara remains number one for me (actually, number one for ANY wine, Aussie or not) Getting a pristine bottle these days would be nigh-on impossible, as provenance is everything in a wine more than 50 years old. There are certainly more expensive Aussie wines out there, but Patty remains my favourite.

Re Felix suggestions.

1. Peppermint Patty - interesting idea but simply not a practical suggestion,
2. No comment
3. Agree with Ozzie, my experience with Mt Mary much more positive than yours. I dislike Cullens as much as you I suspect. Agree on 707 too.
4. Yes Mosss Wood is a not a bad idea.

BUT.... I have actually done this before - twice. When brought into a line up of good bdx, a Aussie cab will stick out like dogs balls. It will remind the US tasters of Napa Valley cabs. A Moss Wood is a very good wine, but is not distinctively Australian to most American palates. Something like Mt Mount Mary (whilst I love them) will also get lost in the comparison

I would go with something more distinctively Aussie and not reminiscent of Napa; Wendouree, Lakes Folly, older Taltarni are all good ideas. My first hand experience is that most American tasters enjoy and appreciate the chance to try Wendouree. Many have heard of them but have never had the chance to try one. They appreciate it's distinctiveness and its distance from what they perceive as the Aussie mainstream.

cheers Brodie

+1 aged Moss Wood, well stored aged Mt Mary (not so much young), Yarra Yering No 1, Lakes Folly

Not easy to think of Aus cab franc/merlot blends in league of Cheval Blanc. Wantirna can be of interest if elegant style sought.

Other - Interested to see more older Coonawarra recommendations given experience on board here.

McAlister East Gippsland very Bdx like style, if obscure.

Some of above Yarra and MR wines can present as Bdx like (blind), particularly if < 14% and lesser eucalyptus influence

I'd also suggest a Wendouree. Reading thru the US WB forum Wendouree always seems to pique interest.
A 90's Cab Malbec would do the trick i reckon.
Perhaps take a backup in the form of a straight Cab from the same decade.
Screw cap may offend or send the wrong message ( ) in terms of quality so you'll have that covered with 90's Wendouree.

Wendouree an obvious one.
Otherwise Penfolds Bin 169. 2008/09/10 are stonkingly good. 100% Coonawarra and 100% new French oak. If budget permits one of the Block 42s.
2004 is only 13.4% alc, so lower than most anticipate. Massive density .

grapeobserver wrote:+1 aged Moss Wood, well stored aged Mt Mary (not so much young), Yarra Yering No 1, Lakes Folly

Not easy to think of Aus cab franc/merlot blends in league of Cheval Blanc. Wantirna can be of interest if elegant style sought.

Other - Interested to see more older Coonawarra recommendations given experience on board here.

McAlister East Gippsland very Bdx like style, if obscure.

Some of above Yarra and MR wines can present as Bdx like (blind), particularly if < 14% and lesser eucalyptus influence

GO, as a Coonawarra nut, and no doubt the other Coonawarra nut who is on here often will contribute.

Old and really old Coonawarras are a rare beast and getting rarer. Old Redman's are few and far between, as are Rouge Homme's ( still have a couple of 78's stashed away) one of the greatest wines ever.
Lindemans St George 1980 great wine, but non-existent, as is 63 PP.
Woodley Treasure chest series from the 50s, again incredibly rare, and expensive, but around from time to time.
That essentially leaves you with Wynns Black labels pre 1980s
I agree with Block 42 and 169, good choices.

I might have missed one or two, but if not for the freak 63 Mildara and the curios of Woodley's its probably Wynns that it the best bet.
Cheers Craig

PS. If you can find either Dorrien or Drumborg from Seppelts from either late 80s to mid 90s then this would be another suggestion, very good Cabernets.

I know from recent experience that the Block 42 (1996 in my case) will show very out of place against top Bordeaux, showing sweet and really american oaky. As will many Australian wines though to be fair.

The older the better I reckon (although take a backup). As some have said, old Rouge Homme, Redman etc can be really good if you get a well stored bottle with a lucky cork.

Wendouree is a great choice, but so variable, something from 1991 would be ideal if you can find one, such a good vintage for them.

Lakes Folly also good, but what year? 1996 comes to mind.

Mount Mary Quintets is also a good suggestion, with age it can be very interesting, with more focus on structure and balance than fruit sweetness.

Seppelt Dorrien 1996 is another cracker, although again a bit of variability these days.

John Riddoch another solid option, perhaps without being stunning (except a good bottle of the 82). So if you can't get an 82, maybe 1988 or 90/91/96 could be worth a look, or as a backup bottle.

Cheers
Tim

Wendouree needs to be aged IMO otherwise too extreme for many. 1991 cabernet or cabernet malbec crackers, even freakish, to some.

Ian S wrote:If anyone is likely to be cocky about guessing the Aussie wines, it would be great if one of those old tannic Taltarni Cabernet Sauvignon wines was in the lineup.

Fully agree! A 1981 Chateau Taltarni Cabernet, as it was called back then, was a Bordeaux look-a-like at a blind tasting some years ago.

phillisc wrote: PS. If you can find either Dorrien or Drumborg from Seppelts from either late 80s to mid 90s then this would be another suggestion, very good Cabernets.

Loved the one and only Dorrien I had, can't remember whether it was the 96 or 98 vintage. I have a bottle of the Drumborg 91 waiting for the right person to open with. A previous bottle from the same batch with lower fill and cork wet through had a terrific nose (albeit a bit herbaceous) but the palate was thin.

phillisc wrote:

grapeobserver wrote:+1 aged Moss Wood, well stored aged Mt Mary (not so much young), Yarra Yering No 1, Lakes Folly

Not easy to think of Aus cab franc/merlot blends in league of Cheval Blanc. Wantirna can be of interest if elegant style sought.

Other - Interested to see more older Coonawarra recommendations given experience on board here.

McAlister East Gippsland very Bdx like style, if obscure.

Some of above Yarra and MR wines can present as Bdx like (blind), particularly if < 14% and lesser eucalyptus influence

GO, as a Coonawarra nut, and no doubt the other Coonawarra nut who is on here often will contribute.

Old and really old Coonawarras are a rare beast and getting rarer. Old Redman's are few and far between, as are Rouge Homme's ( still have a couple of 78's stashed away) one of the greatest wines ever.
Lindemans St George 1980 great wine, but non-existent, as is 63 PP.
Woodley Treasure chest series from the 50s, again incredibly rare, and expensive, but around from time to time.
That essentially leaves you with Wynns Black labels pre 1980s
I agree with Block 42 and 169, good choices.

I might have missed one or two, but if not for the freak 63 Mildara and the curios of Woodley's its probably Wynns that it the best bet.
Cheers Craig

PS. If you can find either Dorrien or Drumborg from Seppelts from either late 80s to mid 90s then this would be another suggestion, very good Cabernets.

The other one here ...

A recent tasting of '59 Rouge Homme was just outstanding, drinking superbly, I've had it twice, in 2017 and 1998, but v hard to source

Con's bottle of '76 Black label from about three years ago was just WOTY for me that year, again outstanding as an old age worthy Australian red. Will depend on the bottle of course.

Certainly nothing wrong with 1996 Block 42 or 2010 Bin 169, the B42 being my fave special wine and top recommendation (and its Barossa )

I agree with felix, from my tasting experience, '63 Peppermint Pattie is just a very special wine, although haven't seen a bottle in the last decade

mjs wrote:I agree with felix, from my tasting experience, '63 Peppermint Pattie is just a very special wine, although haven't seen a bottle in the last decade

Cheers Malcolm, likewise, never had a 63 PP but like a 55 Michael, which I had in 1984, suspect that these two are fast going the way of the dodo.
It could be assumed to save face, that if a PP ever popped up, it no doubt would be an excellent bottle

Speaking of Coonawarra, trust that the Roadshow was good.

Cheers craig

I'd go with our gift to the world of wine - the shiraz cabernet blend - Penfolds 1990 Bin 90A. Should be drinking well now.

Carl

Forget Cullen, you will just end up dissapointed.
If you can find a well cellared Henschke have had a few good ones, but very questionable corks.
82 JR and BL are stunning with good bottles as is the 76.
Moss woods are sublime with lots of age. Have had amazing aged Bowen's (80's) and lindemans back to early 90's. Wendouree and Jack Mann as has been mentioned previously.

A new suggestion. Yesterday I had the pleasure of drinking a 1994 Howard Park Cabernet Merlot. This vintage was made by the legendary John Wade (of 1982 Wynns John Riddoch fame). It was sublime and exceeded my expectations. Tasted in the company of a 1991 Moss Wood Cabernet Sauvignon which was also outstanding. I'm not sure about the other vintages John Wade made, but I can vouch for the 1994.

Ozzie W wrote:A new suggestion. Yesterday I had the pleasure of drinking a 1994 Howard Park Cabernet Merlot. This vintage was made by the legendary John Wade (of 1982 Wynns John Riddoch fame). It was sublime and exceeded my expectations. Tasted in the company of a 1991 Moss Wood Cabernet Sauvignon which was also outstanding. I'm not sure about the other vintages John Wade made, but I can vouch for the 1994.

Yes Ozzie, think you are onto something here, 88 HP is an amazing wine, had it a few times. I feel ashamed that I overlooked this label and of course John Wade the Cabernet master.
Cheers Craig