The Auswine Forum

Probably more than 95% of my cellar is under screwcap. Australian winemakers have largely gone for the safe option, and I generally applaud the move.

There's a couple of winemakers who I highly respect, that have their reasons for retaining corks. But I remain unconvinced.

Without naming the culprits, in the last week I have opened 4 corked wines. All of these were wines that would break the $50 a bottle mark, and three of them had been cellared (well) for some years and were 1998/99 vintages. The other one is a 2016 and the only reason I opened it was because it was weeping (as well as corked).

Regardless of the debate about the quality of ageing under cork (i.e. they age better and less reductively), I've now thrown a few hundred dollars down the sink this week, and that alone tells me that winemakers world wide should move to alternative closures. I'll leave the conversation about the quality of corks in Europe vs Australia alone (and I've just returned from Italy only copping one corked wine in a month of holiday drinking).

Rant over. For now. I'd be interested in opinions.

Cheers
Allan

Indeed very disappointing when you open an expensive (and particularly if a long-cellared) bottle to find it TCA affected.

My routine is, if I come across a dud bottle, (and not only for corked wines, but any good wine that I suspect is faulty for whatever reason) is to immediately pour the rest back in the bottle, reinsert the original cork if possible, send the sus bottle to the winery at my own cost, with a note requesting the winemaker's opinion. I'm not enough of an expert to confidently identify most faults, so I politely ask "is this right?, doesn't taste like I expected"

Sometimes the winery confirms TCA, occasionally some other fault, sometimes no fault at all, but in 90% + of cases, they will send me another bottle. Maybe not the same vintage if it's an older wine, but another bottle nonetheless, without me actually even asking. Naturally this is only practical for Aust wineries (that are still operating).

Not sure it warrants as much concern in Australia, as abroad, where refunds harder to come by.

- In Australia you have easy access to refunds.

- Australian producers of premium wine and opting for cork, should be buying the expensive and "guaranteed" TCA free corks which should reduce TCA significantly.

Please name and shame - they chose the stopper and it’s fair to call them out over it.

Sometimes the winery confirms TCA, occasionally some other fault, sometimes no fault at all, but in 90% + of cases, they will send me another bottle. Maybe not the same vintage if it's an older wine, but another bottle nonetheless, without me actually even asking.

.... and then they send another bottle... under cork. Just so you can start the process all over again!!

I don’t understand playing a naming and shame game ?

If a producer chooses to use cork and replaces affected wines there’s no reason to shame them ?

Time to taste one old one, one Terra d'or Aix-en-Provence 2000 by M.Chapoutier. RP 94, drink to 2025! Not so fast, the bloody cork is kind wet at the bottom, and breaks down in pieces. Two hours' airing at least to get rid of the cork taint smell!
I do not think that Chapoutier would replace that with a fresh one, nor would I shame him for chosing cork. Winemakers must move on with the time. I only buy screw caps nowadays.
Cheers.

Dang sounds like aeration was all that was needed? Or was it cork taint? Not sure if TCA can just blow off?

Your screw cap only drinking will be fairly limited and I don't envy you. Winemakers must move on? It's a big winemaking world outside of Australia and screw cap has not been a universal solution.

So back to 2000 Grange under screw cap v 2000 Grange under cork.
Next year we are supposed to see the results of this according to a Pennies rep i spoke to at a recent St. Henri tasting.
Perfect provenance and served blind?

Be great to hear a report post taste.
Could be some 'red' faces...

JamieBahrain wrote:Dang sounds like aeration was all that was needed? Or was it cork taint? Not sure if TCA can just blow off?

TCA does not blow off. TCA is a permanent chemical change in the wine. I find it usually becomes more noticeable with air, not the other way around.

Scotty vino wrote:So back to 2000 Grange under screw cap v 2000 Grange under cork.
Next year we are supposed to see the results of this according to a Pennies rep i spoke to at a recent St. Henri tasting.
Perfect provenance and served blind?

Be great to hear a report post taste.
Could be some 'red' faces...

although most of them won't publicly admit it, there are many classified Growth Chateaux in Bordeaux that have held wine under screw cap for a long time, I think Leoville Barton started their experiment with the 1994 vintage, and Margaux is rumoured to have started theirs even earlier than that.
FWIW i have had Moss Wood 2001 under both cork and screw cap a few years ago, and found the screw cap version to be much fresher but also more one dimensional. But of course not a sample size to draw any conclusion from whatsoever.

IMO, Aussie chardonnay and riesling are far, far superior under SC.

I know this subject keeps coming up, but have to say that the result of the Grange 2000 cork vs screwcap tasting will only be useful if they open multiple bottles of each as the variability of cork is so huge. I have no doubt the SC will ensure those ones show consistently and very very youthful, but then again 19 year old Grange IS very youthful!! For the cork ones, some bottles may taste excellent due to them tasting more like 40 years of age (which can be where Grange shines), others will be TCA affected, some likely scalped (very low level TCA), maybe one may be maderised due to far too much air ingress and a few will still be youthful, vibrant and similar to the SC version. All quite predictable really!

JamieBahrain wrote:Not sure it warrants as much concern in Australia, as abroad, where refunds harder to come by.

- In Australia you have easy access to refunds.

- Australian producers of premium wine and opting for cork, should be buying the expensive and "guaranteed" TCA free corks which should reduce TCA significantly.

Agree this is much less of a problem for those buying mainly Aussie (or NZ and Aussie) wines. Those that use cork know that the local market understands the problem, having recently undergone the shift, so know if they choose cork they have to cover failures. Being stubborn and not refunding failures should be called aout, as I recall happened here *many* moons ago with Radenti. However if they refund/replace then there is no reason to call them out.

It's a different issue in the ROW, especially Europe, where cork remains king, yet purchasing split over many countries. I could try demanding replacements off the shops I bought the wine from, but as I enjoy cellaring wine, this might be 5, 10, 15 or more years after I bought it, and they may no longer have a relationship with the distributor or winery. Thus if they refund me, it's likely they have to swallow the cost. If I were very loyal to one shop, then I might do this, but as I flit here there and everywhere, I don't think I've earned their loyalty to swallow such costs.

So much more different if you can contact the winery direct, who have a distribution network (or simply use the post office) to get you a replacement.

So yes, I also hate corks.

Regards
Ian

I take corked wines back to Europe. Stuff them ! The nonchalant acceptance of taint by the European market is half the problem.

I find the Aussie debate on closures irksome though the refusal to accept taint admirable. Could you imagine if the Europeans were like the Aussies on Burgundy prem-ox for example? The issue would have been at least recognised and earlier addressed.

Just opened a bottle of TCA effected '98 389. Grrrr.
Anyone got a specific contact at Penfolds that I can message?
Cheers, Travis

JamieBahrain wrote:I take corked wines back to Europe. Stuff them ! The nonchalant acceptance of taint by the European market is half the problem.

I find the Aussie debate on closures irksome though the refusal to accept taint admirable. Could you imagine if the Europeans were like the Aussies on Burgundy prem-ox for example? The issue would have been at least recognised and earlier addressed.

Yes the wilfull ignorance about premox completely turned me off white burgs, just as I was starting to develop an interest. We've been lucky with Macon wines, which rather unusually seem unaffected. Beyond that even the region we did buy (Chablis) has dropped off our buying radar.

I just had a bottle of Barolo that was corked, purchased from an online wine store in Italy. They accepted it without question and refunded the money as cash (even though I only asked for store credit as I buy from them regularly). That is how the service should be (don't get me started on the bad service from some of the French online retailers!)

When we were in Scotland a few years ago a hotel had bottle shop. Above the entrance was a huge sign protesting against screw caps. I can't remember what it said but it was quite aggressive. Luddites.

TiggerK wrote:I know this subject keeps coming up, but have to say that the result of the Grange 2000 cork vs screwcap tasting will only be useful if they open multiple bottles of each as the variability of cork is so huge. I have no doubt the SC will ensure those ones show consistently and very very youthful, but then again 19 year old Grange IS very youthful!! For the cork ones, some bottles may taste excellent due to them tasting more like 40 years of age (which can be where Grange shines), others will be TCA affected, some likely scalped (very low level TCA), maybe one may be maderised due to far too much air ingress and a few will still be youthful, vibrant and similar to the SC version. All quite predictable really!

Heck of a test. Pick the worst vintage in 40 years and compare!

I was at the Gunderloch cellar door in Nackenheim a month ago. Fritz Hasselbach was out in AU in the late 90s and saw some of the experiments that were being done here just prior to the Clare riesling-makers taking their plunge. He thought it was all very promising and then Gunderloch lost a massive proportion of their 1999 vintage to bad corks. I gather they were deeply unimpressed and had little help from the cork suppliers so began to switch over just a couple of years later, although they had some trouble getting quality stelvin gear at the start, and bottled some wines under what looked like soft-drink-bottle screwcaps. (Some of which I think I have in the cellar, judging by the shape under the capsule - 02 Rothenberg Spatlese for example.)
Anyway, their whole range is under screwcap these days - GGs and gold cap ausleses and the rest - and they are quite happy, although they admit there are still plenty of reactionary elements in the wine biz in Europe who still haven't come around to a modern, food-grade closure yet.
Graeme

100% back SC closure in dry white wines, 95% sure they suit the sweeter versions too. Really cannot understand why every good producer does not use them.
However, I remain (very) far from convinced that SC is the answer for the great red wines of the world, the ones that will flourish with 20-50 years in the cellar. At this stage, I am most sceptical with Bordeaux and Bordeaux-varietal wines.
I don't buy whites under cork any more, but on the other hand, I don't buy reds under SC.

GraemeG wrote:

TiggerK wrote:I know this subject keeps coming up, but have to say that the result of the Grange 2000 cork vs screwcap tasting will only be useful if they open multiple bottles of each as the variability of cork is so huge. I have no doubt the SC will ensure those ones show consistently and very very youthful, but then again 19 year old Grange IS very youthful!! For the cork ones, some bottles may taste excellent due to them tasting more like 40 years of age (which can be where Grange shines), others will be TCA affected, some likely scalped (very low level TCA), maybe one may be maderised due to far too much air ingress and a few will still be youthful, vibrant and similar to the SC version. All quite predictable really!

Heck of a test. Pick the worst vintage in 40 years and compare!

I was at the Gunderloch cellar door in Nackenheim a month ago. Fritz Hasselbach was out in AU in the late 90s and saw some of the experiments that were being done here just prior to the Clare riesling-makers taking their plunge. He thought it was all very promising and then Gunderloch lost a massive proportion of their 1999 vintage to bad corks. I gather they were deeply unimpressed and had little help from the cork suppliers so began to switch over just a couple of years later, although they had some trouble getting quality stelvin gear at the start, and bottled some wines under what looked like soft-drink-bottle screwcaps. (Some of which I think I have in the cellar, judging by the shape under the capsule - 02 Rothenberg Spatlese for example.)
Anyway, their whole range is under screwcap these days - GGs and gold cap ausleses and the rest - and they are quite happy, although they admit there are still plenty of reactionary elements in the wine biz in Europe who still haven't come around to a modern, food-grade closure yet.
Graeme

No doubt 2011 will be the next screw cap release eh Graeme
Cheers Craig

felixp21 wrote:However, I remain (very) far from convinced that SC is the answer for the great red wines of the world, the ones that will flourish with 20-50 years in the cellar. At this stage, I am most sceptical with Bordeaux and Bordeaux-varietal wines.

Is that just lack of data points? Presumably yes, for Bdx & Burg (proper)!
Or is it that new-world examples have disappointed under sc compared to their predecessors under cork?
(Assuming, for instance that nothing else has changed!)
Graeme

I don't much worry about whether a wine is sealed by a cork or a screwcap. Most of my wines were bought years ago and of course under cork. Edit: Some of my recent purchases are under screwcap, especially if they're white or from Australia or New Zealand, though I think my Te Matas and Stonyridge are under cork, can't remember.

Today I just buy what I want and presume the winemaker made the right decision for his or her wine. To give an example, some time ago, around the same time, I found some 2013 Aldo Coterno 'Tre Pile' Barbera under cork - not fussed; found some 2013 Annie's Lane 'Copper Trail' Shiraz - not fussed. A good producer, a good wine, I take them as they come.

Mahmoud.

GraemeG wrote:

felixp21 wrote:However, I remain (very) far from convinced that SC is the answer for the great red wines of the world, the ones that will flourish with 20-50 years in the cellar. At this stage, I am most sceptical with Bordeaux and Bordeaux-varietal wines.

Is that just lack of data points? Presumably yes, for Bdx & Burg (proper)!
Or is it that new-world examples have disappointed under sc compared to their predecessors under cork?
(Assuming, for instance that nothing else has changed!)
Graeme

Graeme,

I think it is because people have seen that reds maybe aren't aging the way they're supposed to (or I should say, how we're used to them aging).

The side by sides I've seen with Cork and Screwcap with reds...have basically shown that the reds are obviously a lot fresher...in some cases far fresher than we're used to seeing them..and there is this lack of aged character which to me is whatever the cork imparts to the wine that combines with the tannins of the wine...There could be some element of lack of oxygen ingress as well...

Medium term I think all whites benefit from SC...I think long term Riesling does...or any high acid white....Chardonnay, I'm not sure....The Burgundy I've seen under SC with some age (10 years or so) has been good but a bit unusual...(Laroche, Dublere).