The Auswine Forum

Hi,

Just opened a bottle. Cork was a little sunk but overall good ullage and not much wine on the cork (if any of that can show no heat damage?)

First pour was quite sweet at the end, almost porty - after 10 mins in the glass, that's not as noticeable, but still there.

Do I likely have a bad bottle or does it just need some time to breathe?

If it's bad, I bought it online from Dan's. What's the return /refund policy from your experience?

As an update, I called Dan's and they said I could take it in and get a refund or a replacement. Hands up for replacement or refund haha?

I opened a 2010 Wynns Alex 88 after and damn, that's good. Made me sure the first bottle was diddled. I guess anything could have happened to it in the preceding 21 years.... Does the sunken cork mean anything?

I don't think cork's an issue, at least as far as being sunken; it looks within the bounds of normal to me.
I've had variable experiences with 98 Bin 389 lately.
It's turning into a crap-shoot in my view; like nearly everything else from 98 South Aust these days.
Graeme

Thanks, mate. Not used to cork, TBH, so not sure what is normal.

I'm guessing Port sweetness is not good, though??? Very much thinking about just returning for credit/refund vs exchange... Was under the impression 98 was a great year but provenenance is everything, right?

I was just really excited to try this wine, as it's one of my oldest. Now I'm a little scared for some 90s Granges I have, although different supplier (Nicks Wine Merchants) - at least Dan's return policy is great!

Cork looks fine, but that doesn't mean much. Have you tried wines of that style around that age before? Most Penfolds are a bit sweet, and Portiness could well be normal for that wine and that vintage, but it all depends on your taste. I hope you gave it some time in a decanter too, can help. Give it an hour or two.

Looks bloody good to me, i'd be happy with that.

OK, I'll try it tomorrow, but no, don't have experience with the age. If I replace and it's the same/different, that will be enlightening.

The cork looks fine to me. Also, wine creep along a cork is variable, even among wines of a similar age. Tim many be right about Penfolds, and the ripeness of the 1998 vintage may well translate into a certain portiness with age. Make sure the wine is at the right temperature.

Kinda worried now about my 90s Granges. Should I expect a similar Portiness from your experience?

Hi Nick,

I've not had an old Grange - still waiting for my 1983 to be ready (whenever that will be) so no real experience. I have had a 1982 Bin 820 that was drop dead gorgeous, the best Australian wine I've ever had. That wine wasn't porty at all but it was exuberant and ripe, any sweetness, if I could it it that, leaning towards a ripe, plump, cherry tomato more than anything else.

As one who likes my wines older, I cannot help but wonder if the wine needs more time, to allow the sweet shiraz develop tertiary characteristics. People with experience of older Bin 389s and the 1998 vintage would be better placed to advise you.

Cheers ............... Mahmoud.

Nick Wine Guy wrote:Kinda worried now about my 90s Granges. Should I expect a similar Portiness from your experience?

Impossible to answer that without a common frame of reference, your portiness may be my SA ripe vintage tertiary character. No doubt that bottle variation is rife with Aussie wines under cork in the 90's and early 00's. IF it was stored correctly at Penfolds since vintage (a big IF), it's either correct, or a victim of a less than perfect cork air ingress level.

As for the Grange, hmm, I'd have to share it with you to be sure.... But IMHO, and as a general rule, Grange shows best at over 40 years old, 90's Grange will still be very primary and ripe fruited. (and Mahmoud, 83 just needs another 5 years, as it always has!! )

I was just under the assumption that porty meant it had been over heated /abused at some point, hence asking about the cork.

As an aside, I did feel when I poured it that it did have a bricky colour, again making me think there was a fault.

Either way, I'll return to DMs for a replacement and report back!

Cork shows no sign of heat and a bit of ‘bricky’ colour would be normal for a wine at 20 years old, even a bigger style like 98 389. But it could well be heat affected, so if they’ll take it back and swap, best way to find out! Unless all their stock of it is....

Agreed - excellent cork for a 20 year old wine

Just tried it again.... Just not sure about that sweetness. The Rewards of Patience does talk about pluminess.

Does this sediment also look normal? Again, I'm new to wines like this.

Sediment looks light - you have to decant these old Penfolds wines as there is usually a lot of it.

Last bottle I had was full of energy and rich sweet fruit. Bottle variation is expected at this age though and yours does sound and look to be in ok condition.

It’s worth pointing out that when I first started to buy older wine, a lot went down the sink as I thought it was ‘off’. It wasn’t though, it was just that the taste profile was so different to young wine and it took time to develop a palate for it.

Yes sediment is fine.

But I will say this...mini soapbox...

Where are you based? I reckon attending a few offlines will do you a world of good. It is the absolute best way to learn about wines, understand wines and get experience with older wines. (and different styles). A 98 389 would have been a perfect bottle to take along, most would have experience with it and how it should taste. And I guarantee everyone would be more than happy to answer all your questions on the wines you try on the night, so don't let fear of not knowing stop you - wine tragics love sharing their knowledge and helping others learn and from my experience are pretty generous in doing so. By the end of the night instead of trying one 389, you would have experienced about 20 different bottles of wine.

People that attend are from all walks of life, IT, builders, truckies, sales, brokers, barristers, retired, doctors you name it - and you know what - all that gets left at the door and you all sit down as wine lovers. Where the barrister is listening intently and asking questions to the builder as he is an expert in that style of wine etc, etc The media might portray the whole wine wanker thing, but for me I've never met a bunch of more down to earth, generous, humble people than wine lovers. It is like they are just happy to have met others 'just like them' and are rejoicing in it as none of their friends/families 'get it' quite like they do.

off soapbox...

I totally understand if it is not your thing, but thought I'd put it out there anyway.

mychurch wrote: It’s worth pointing out that when I first started to buy older wine, a lot went down the sink as I thought it was ‘off’. It wasn’t though, it was just that the taste profile was so different to young wine and it took time to develop a palate for it.

Spot on

Nick Wine Guy wrote:I was just under the assumption that porty meant it had been over heated /abused at some point, hence asking about the cork.

As an aside, I did feel when I poured it that it did have a bricky colour, again making me think there was a fault.

Either way, I'll return to DMs for a replacement and report back!

Cork looks perfect to me - both placement and low wine seep; ullage is also perfect for 21 yo red. If heat affected, you'd have wine travel along side of cork, and possibly a slightly protruding cork. Deposit on bottle would be a pigment deposit, totally natural for Penfolds/Shiraz/21 years. Portiness is rarely a spoilage indicator.
Sounds as if all it needs is a couple of hours in a decanter - please don't tell me you're a vegan, because this wine seems to be screaming for a plump, medium-rare steak!
Strongly agree about offline, whereby you can try many examples of older reds.
(If you want an example of a spoiled old red, try any Beaucastel with 21 years on it!)

Matt@5453 wrote:

mychurch wrote: It’s worth pointing out that when I first started to buy older wine, a lot went down the sink as I thought it was ‘off’. It wasn’t though, it was just that the taste profile was so different to young wine and it took time to develop a palate for it.

Spot on

+1

This was me 5 years ago.

dave vino wrote:Where are you based? I reckon attending a few offlines will do you a world of good. It is the absolute best way to learn about wines, understand wines and get experience with older wines. (and different styles). A 98 389 would have been a perfect bottle to take along, most would have experience with it and how it should taste. And I guarantee everyone would be more than happy to answer all your questions on the wines you try on the night, so don't let fear of not knowing stop you - wine tragics love sharing their knowledge and helping others learn and from my experience are pretty generous in doing so. By the end of the night instead of trying one 389, you would have experienced about 20 different bottles of wine.

People that attend are from all walks of life, IT, builders, truckies, sales, brokers, barristers, retired, doctors you name it - and you know what - all that gets left at the door and you all sit down as wine lovers. Where the barrister is listening intently and asking questions to the builder as he is an expert in that style of wine etc, etc The media might portray the whole wine wanker thing, but for me I've never met a bunch of more down to earth, generous, humble people than wine lovers. It is like they are just happy to have met others 'just like them' and are rejoicing in it as none of their friends/families 'get it' quite like they do.

+1

I cannot think of any better advice to give someone looking to expand their wine horizons.

Would love to join an offline - I'm in the Sydney CBD. How do I find out about that?

Just a heads up Dan's doesn't actually exchange old wines in found out. But it sounds like you're all saying it's good.

Decanting - some seem to recommend it for a few hours for this one, others say never decant an old one. What's your thoughts for this bottle?

I would give this a good hour and watch it develop in the glass. I think you'll find the last glass to be the best. And yeah, like said above, aged wine tastes a lot different to young wine. Took me awhile to develop a taste and took an unbelievable younger looking 1990 Bin 707 to awaken the beast.

And in regards to this being an old wine. In my opinion, if the bottle is sound (which it looks to be) than you can look at this in a decade before it starts to look truly old.

DJ1980 wrote:And in regards to this being an old wine. In my opinion, if the bottle is sound (which it looks to be) than you can look at this in a decade before it starts to look truly old.

I quite agree.

Nick Wine Guy wrote:Would love to join an offline - I'm in the Sydney CBD. How do I find out about that?

Sign up to the next Auswine Sydney one...although it seems like there hasn't been one for awhile.

Better yet, plan it as that'll guarantee you a spot . Or kick it off and maybe someone will help you sort it out...

Polymer wrote:

Nick Wine Guy wrote:Would love to join an offline - I'm in the Sydney CBD. How do I find out about that?

Sign up to the next Auswine Sydney one...although it seems like there hasn't been one for awhile.

Better yet, plan it as that'll guarantee you a spot . Or kick it off and maybe someone will help you sort it out...

I'd certainly be keen as well.

I do remember having some 1998 St Henris with crook corks.

I don’t believe that you said when you bought this wine. At release or much later? If you have had it since release, how was it stored and if you didn’t, provenance might be a factor. The cork and bottle (I just named an old favourite wine bar of mine in London ) look ok, but storage can still be an issue. I do agree with others who mention bottle variation in 90’s Penfolds.

I certainly support Dave’s comment about joining in on off-lines, they are a great way to experience both different wines and other people’s experiences.

dave vino wrote:Yes sediment is fine.

But I will say this...mini soapbox...

Where are you based? I reckon attending a few offlines will do you a world of good. It is the absolute best way to learn about wines, understand wines and get experience with older wines. (and different styles). A 98 389 would have been a perfect bottle to take along, most would have experience with it and how it should taste. And I guarantee everyone would be more than happy to answer all your questions on the wines you try on the night, so don't let fear of not knowing stop you - wine tragics love sharing their knowledge and helping others learn and from my experience are pretty generous in doing so. By the end of the night instead of trying one 389, you would have experienced about 20 different bottles of wine.

People that attend are from all walks of life, IT, builders, truckies, sales, brokers, barristers, retired, doctors you name it - and you know what - all that gets left at the door and you all sit down as wine lovers. Where the barrister is listening intently and asking questions to the builder as he is an expert in that style of wine etc, etc The media might portray the whole wine wanker thing, but for me I've never met a bunch of more down to earth, generous, humble people than wine lovers. It is like they are just happy to have met others 'just like them' and are rejoicing in it as none of their friends/families 'get it' quite like they do.

off soapbox...

I totally understand if it is not your thing, but thought I'd put it out there anyway.

Great post
So true

Mahmoud Ali wrote:Hi Nick,

I've not had an old Grange - still waiting for my 1983 to be ready (whenever that will be) so no real experience. I have had a 1982 Bin 820 that was drop dead gorgeous, the best Australian wine I've ever had. That wine wasn't porty at all but it was exuberant and ripe, any sweetness, if I could it it that, leaning towards a ripe, plump, cherry tomato more than anything else.

As one who likes my wines older, I cannot help but wonder if the wine needs more time, to allow the sweet shiraz develop tertiary characteristics. People with experience of older Bin 389s and the 1998 vintage would be better placed to advise you.

Cheers ............... Mahmoud.

I enjoy your different take on some things, but to say an 83 Grange isn’t ready is surely taking the piss? From now to infinity how much more development are you expecting?