The Auswine Forum

I'm thinking of making the plunge and getting a bottle of Grange. Obviously it's not an insignificant purchase so I've been scoping auction sites (to buy now, not necessarily wait for an auction) where I can get one for sometimes a few hundred less than, say, Dan Murphys.

Any words to the wise in terms of purchasing from these sites (I've been looking into Sterling and Cellarit)? A lot of the older bottles have some label damage which leads me to believe it may not be worth saving money to bug from some random person who may not have stored them well....

Thanks!

Best bet is to buy an older one that has been Cliniced. So you know they have opened it, and checked it. You will pay more, but that is for the peace of mind. Find a good year 1971/76/86/90/91/96 etc, etc and be patient in your pursuit.

https://www.penfolds.com/~/media/Files/Penfo ... 1-2010.pdf

Thanks for that info, mate.I was thinking 1998, so not that old - maybe even early 2000s. Any suggestions as to where to buy, cliniced or otherwise?

Hi Nick
I think the vintage should be influenced by when you plan to drink it - if having it sat in the cellar for a special treat 'at some point in the future' is the aim, then relatively young vintages would be fine. I did that over a decade ago with a 1991, and it's still sat there with no immediate rush to drink (I do prefer maturity in wines, and I do enjoy the act of cellaring). If you're in more of a hurry to drink one, then look for a slightly older vintage.

One unrelated thought - it's generally a good idea to avoid putting your email address out on a publically viewable internet site. Automated 'bots' do gather email addresses to use/sell lists for spamming.

Regards
Ian

Thanks for the info for both points, Ian. Any suggestions for best place to buy those type of premium ones for best price/quality of storage?

Hi Nick
I'm based in the UK, so not best placed to advise. I've been impressed with how Mark Wickman conducts himself online, and I know a number of folks use his auction site, so that would be my first thought (after Gavin of course - not sure if he stocks old Grange on this site).

Regards
Ian

Hey Nick,

Keep in mind there's always a chance of a badly stored bottle, and no refund or exchanges with auctions. (Although if corked, you can likely get it replaced via Penfolds, albeit with current vintage). So as Dave said, a cliniced bottle does give good peace of mind. 1998 will still be far too young to show at its best potential, but it's not like you'll be disappointed either (depending on your expectations of course), just won't have that tertiary development that gives well aged Grange it's reputation. 2002 and 2004 will also be brutal, closed up monsters, 2003 a syrupy hot mess (IMHO). 97, 99 or 2001 could be a decent choice, not a 'premium' year but will be showing a bit more aged character because of that, and maybe not such a price premium as well. Personally if I was looking for an older Grange, I'd go 1994 or 1996 or way older like 88, 77, 76, 71, 67, 66. 1991 was too coconutty for my tastes, but that was a few years ago so may be in a better place now.

And have to say it.... keep in mind there are other wines around or below that price point that you could choose too, some Northern Rhone wines like Guigal La La's are worth a look, again they need the age and not so easy to find, but far better than Grange for me. Grange is the traditional 'top Aussie' and with enough age, can be a truly excellent wine, but there's a lot of hype and marketing effort behind it too.

my 2c anyway...

Cheers
TIm

If you are travelling internationally any time soon - buy a bottle duty free.

I recently purchased a 2012 Hill of Grace - with the online pre-purchase through JR Duty free I got an extra 20% off, bringing it in at $640. The same deal applied to the Grange which I think was a bit less in price.

tuxy85 wrote:If you are travelling internationally any time soon - buy a bottle duty free.

I recently purchased a 2012 Hill of Grace - with the online pre-purchase through JR Duty free I got an extra 20% off, bringing it in at $640. The same deal applied to the Grange which I think was a bit less in price.

Only problem there is it's current vintage, so you should wait 20-30 years before drinking it!

TiggerK wrote:

tuxy85 wrote:If you are travelling internationally any time soon - buy a bottle duty free.

I recently purchased a 2012 Hill of Grace - with the online pre-purchase through JR Duty free I got an extra 20% off, bringing it in at $640. The same deal applied to the Grange which I think was a bit less in price.

Only problem there is it's current vintage, so you should wait 20-30 years before drinking it!

True - I am 33 years old and recently married. I put the 2012 Hill of Grace away for my 25th wedding anniversary.

However if you don't want to wait so long, I understand your point.

88 Grange is drinking nicely, without quite the premium of, say 86 or 90.
94 is probably the sleeper; if I was spending money on Grange, hoping to drink it in the next decade, without spending stupid money, I'd go for 94.
Unless you can get 91 or 86 without paying too much more...

Honestly, it's rarely a disappointing wine, even in weaker years.

I can only really recall one clearly faulty bottle, and I have 50-odd TNs for Grange over the last 20 years, spanning 1969 - 1997 vintages.
Graeme

GraemeG wrote:88 Grange is drinking nicely, without quite the premium of, say 86 or 90.
94 is probably the sleeper; if I was spending money on Grange, hoping to drink it in the next decade, without spending stupid money, I'd go for 94.
Unless you can get 91 or 86 without paying too much more...

Honestly, it's rarely a disappointing wine, even in weaker years.

I can only really recall one clearly faulty bottle, and I have 50-odd TNs for Grange over the last 20 years, spanning 1969 - 1997 vintages.
Graeme

Yes 94 is a birth year wine for one of the lads, could not afford it on release, around $140-160 IIRC, stupid bloody price.
With the passing of time, and a bit better economic situation, a purchase 20 years later may be on the cards...still $400+ plus commission makes it exy.
Cheers Craig

Thanks for the tips, guys. Some of the auction sites have a 'buy now' option but it seems Wickmans doesn't?

What's the process for buying a cliniced one? Out of curiosity, doesn't opening it potentially cause issues or does topping it up prevent that?

I was actually looking at a 97, $650 on nicks.com.au vs $820 on Dan Murphy's. Figured 22 years would be enough age although I realise it may not have been the best year.

Even a Buy Now option is likely to not have you covered by a 'retail' warranty, would pay to check. Wickmans does list provenance, so if the provenance is certified as good, it's a big step in the right direction, but again, doesn't protect you in any way (other than from TCA via Penfolds themselves).

You buy a cliniced one by finding someone who is offering a cliniced one. i.e no different to any other bottle, but the seller will list it as having been cliniced at some point in time. They open it up, check it, confirm it's faithful to what it should taste like, top up with current vintage (which some argue detracts from the original vintage character, others say its minimal and freshens the wine up a bit, either way it avoids excessive ullage), and then reseal it with a new cork (which we hope isn't TCA affected ).

May I ask what you buying it for? Don't think I've had a 97 Grange, but I do like the vintage in general for SA, better than 98 for me as it was a bit less 'excessive'. The so called 'best years' are often not the best wines in my opinion, same goes for Bordeaux.

Still a lot of money for a wine though! But hey, that's a different debate.

Cheers
Tim

Thanks for the insight, Tim. I've actually been to Magill Estate and had the 2007 or 2008 Grange (about 4 years ago) and was totally underwhelmed, but I do get that it takes a long time to become drinkable. I had a similar vintage 707 and that was absolutely amazing even then. Kinda kicking myself I didn't buy one, given they now retail for a few hundred dollars more per bottle.

For some reason, I just really want a bottle of Grange in my collection, but I also want to drink a well aged one soon, so I may buy a couple but want to at least give an older one a shot first. I think I'm primarily a sucker for Penfolds branding but hey, their bottles do look nice and they do produce some highly ranked ones! Ive got a 1998 bin 389 to try soon and a 2010 St Henri I know I'll need to keep for another while.

As for the marketing side of things, is there a reason Henschke doesn't go so hard with their equivalent HOG or other expensive wines?

nicktroman@gmail.com wrote:As for the marketing side of things, is there a reason Henschke doesn't go so hard with their equivalent HOG or other expensive wines?

I would say because they don't make enough of it to make them need to. Not sure of the actual numbers but orders of magnitude less bottles of HOG than Grange. Both brands are up to silly dollars overall, they are up against many of the world benchmarks at those prices, and I can see the argument for the top wines of a country to retail for such pricing levels. But the local Aus market would likely be dropping, but they rely on parochialism, traditional buyers and marketing to China etc to keep their sales strong. And who can argue, if people buy it at those prices, why wouldn't you sell it for that!

Cheers
Tim

Well, I thought the 97 Grange wanted another decade's aging at a tasting last year. Go an 87 or 84 - they're you're best bet price-wise.
I would say Henschke have gone just as hard as Penfolds as far as pricing is concerned, but I think they make a lot less volume of their top wines, being single-vineyard based. So the comparative rarity helps keep the price up and reduces the marketing budget...
The '89 Grange was widely available for $90 a bottle - by the time the 1990 made the cover of Wine Spectator as wine of the year the prices started to go stupid. Best price I could get buying the 1996 on release in 2001 was $250 - bought just the one bottle, which I still have.
There's no 'value' in the wine any more in my view - you'd do better buying a decent aged 1er Bdx for the same money.
Graeme

Very true Graeme...and that's why 20 years ago I was not even in the market
Best bet is to buy 7 bottles of St Henri, its what I did for the 02, 04, 10 and 12 vintages and may also look at the 16. Drink the single bottle on release with a nice pasta or the like and keep the other 6 in their little wooden boxes for 20 or so years...I am pretty sure in 2040 people will think a well cellared aged St Henri will cut the mustard just as an aged Grange does now....and instead of one lonely soldier, you will have six to choose from

Cheers
Craig

Thanks for the info guys. Any suggestions on the best places to buy these older bottles? I feel more comfortable buying retail than auction, unless my worries are unfounded...

Now there's a tough question!

The Australian secondary market is plagued with poorly stored wines. And with something like Grange, I wonder if the ceremony of drinking the wine blinds those to its poor provenance/performance. That said, Grange is perhaps more resilient than most?

I only buy from Wickmans as they try to determine storage in an honest fashion. Been burnt by dishonest sellers on a "few" occasions, but overall, its such a good auction house concept, it has me returning each month.

Where do retailers source old bottles of Grange? There is still risk!

Hi Nick,
as above, many, if not most, retailers source their old bottles from Auction.
personally, i would never, ever contemplate purchasing a single bottle of Grange at auction. Too many non-wine people are gifted a bottle, which sits over the fireplace for a decade or two, and then goes off to auction as the price has become incredibly attractive.
a tee-totalling associate of mine was given a magnum of 1996 Grange when the company he worked for was sold in 2001/2002, and it sat in it's box in his garden shed next to the lawn mower until 2012, when he found out it's worth and so sent it off to auction and got about $1300 for it lol. His garage has a tin roof and must have reached over 40C many times.

felix, a bit shoddy of you not to do something about that for all those years!
Have some compassion for the wine, man!
GG

Good advice, guys, thanks. Out of curiosity when it comes to an outfit like Langtons, if they have products on auction and for retail sale, are they likely to be from the same source? As in, is buying from their online shops not any different than the risks from buying on auction, or are they different?

GraemeG wrote:felix, a bit shoddy of you not to do something about that for all those years!
Have some compassion for the wine, man!
GG

haha, I only saw it there because I was helping a mate who wanted to borrow his lawn mower!!!! I couldn't believe it, and told him to take it inside as it was worth a fortune. He did better than that, googled it and then sent it off to auction!! He is from Malaysia and had no idea what it was hehe

A tee-totalling friend of mine in Australia once gave me a bottle of scotch he had received from a client. I sure wish he had been given a magnum of Grange instead.

dave vino wrote: https://www.penfolds.com/~/media/Files/Penfo ... 1-2010.pdf

Dear me, the drinking window for my 1983 Grange has now moved further away, to 2035! Will I never be able to enjoy it at full maturity?

Mahmoud.

BTW guys, did end up getting a bottle of 1997. Thinking about getting a 91, 94 and 96, too. I'm quite intrigued by 94 being double the usual amount of Cabernet Sauvignon than usual.

Thanks for all the advice!

Hope you enjoy it!

One last question.... Older/finer wines like these - any reason they wouldn't be OK to last to the next day to drink? Or are they more fragile than standard $20 bottle stuff in terms of lasting once opened?

The better the wine, and if it has longevity, the more likely it will be better than okay the following day. You can use this principle for younger wines you want to try. If it's dead the next day, forget about cellaring it.

Cheers ............. Mahmoud.