The Auswine Forum

I was just reading the Basket Press thread again as well as the Wendouree one and it got me to thinking...

Many of us (myself included) have some wines we buy despite never trying many of them or at least only trying them when young (because of one taste, reputation, scores, reputation, label, etc etc)... I mean, you always have to make a call to cellar something NOW wondering what it will be like in 10 or 20 years...

When Polymer made the point he is not that big a fan of BP, I thought about how many bottles I have cellared vs how many I have actually drunk. I have 32 BP's (soon to be 38 with the latest release), and I have probably tried about 6 at the cellar door and drunk about 3 bottles only.

Then you have Marius which I originally bought sight unseen based on this forum... I have 59 bottles, and I think only 2 or 3 consumed (which certainly validated my faith in the recommendation, and meant I put the rest into the cellar to rest awhile). Then you have Wendouree, where I now have apparently 50 bottles... I have drunk or shared more of those thanks to offlines, but its still probably less than 20, and none from my own cellar.

My experience may be extreme because of having moved overseas and hence not dipping into the cellar that often- but my basic question was- whether you have put a single bottle of something away and are waiting 20 years to see if "Schrödinger's catbernet" is alive or dead, or you have piles of wine like me that far exceed what you have ever consumed of that same wine... what makes you the most nervous it will disappoint, or most optimistic it will surprise to the upside?

Or, if you have been cellaring longer- maybe you have an actual tale of having that surprise? (as in the people I hear of selling all their Wendouree when they find after 20 years they really didn't like it at all)...

I started my cellar journey 3 to 4 years ago having loved examples of old wine. I think the scariest thing for me is discovering maybe my wife doesnt. A number of times she will taste on old bottle we buy at auction that she sees as undrinkable. It has happened a few times with Lajes Folly red and Wendouree Cab Malbec 2 of my favourites. I am starting to think however she is very sensitive to bad storage and Brett. She seems to have a knack for picking small faults I find almost imperceptible. So my biggest fear is not being able to share these wines with my wife

Back to your original question though. Basket Press is a fear of mine. I have 20ish bottles and have only drunk 1. Its a buy on reputation wine. So that one scares me. Rifle Range does not though. I have bought and drunk many and love it.

I was concerned about my Greenock Creek purchases and have now decided to weed them out of the cellar.

Moss Wood cab is another sleeper of concern. Bought that on reputation across a few vintages. Had a 2009 about a year ago I found very unexciting. Was it just in the Cab hole?

Biggest cellar disappointment will be either something horribly corked, or perhaps a 1991 Penfolds Grange.

The below are highlights and lowlights over the last 15 years

Biggest cellaring disappointments so far?
1967 Vallana spanna Montalbano (disappointing because older bottles had been stunningly enjoyable & complex)
1999 Domaine du Closel-Château des Vaults Savennières Les Coulees
1999 Domaine du Closel-Château des Vaults Savennières Les Caillardieres
1999 Domaine du Closel-Château des Vaults Savennières Clos du Papillon
an entirely unbalanced / unappetising trio of wines tasted together
1990 Nervi Gattinara Vigneto Molsino not bad, but nothing like older bottles
1983 Henri Maire Château-Chalon Réserve Catherine de Rye (possibly the winner - interesting but awfully difficult/challenging)
but hang on, some 1997 and 1998 Aldo Conterno Barolo destroyed a genuine affection / enthusiasm for their wines with a muddle/muddy mess. Of all, they were the wines I was most let down by
1974 Cavallotto Barolo Bricco Boschis (bottle variation to be expected at this age, but I'd been hopeful)
1983 Domaine de Liards (Berger Pere et Fils) Montlouis-sur-Loire Demi-Sec. The only disappointing bottle of old loire Chenin sweetie that I could find

Pleasing surprises
1996 Columbia Winery Cabernet Sauvignon David Lake Signature Series Otis Vineyard (there is elegance in the US)
Older bottles of Paul Jaboulet Aîné Crozes-Hermitage Domaine de Thalabert
1950s Harvey's bristol milk sherry tasted at a friend's house - rather impressive
an oldish Bardolino, part of a mixed lot. A surprisingly good stayer
1990 Domaine des Aubuisières Vouvray Moelleux. Old sweet vouvray is no surprise, but it it a surprise is doesn't carry a greater premium for older bottles
1990 Fattoria Selvapiana Chianti Rùfina Riserva Bucerchiale (often funky, but there is some great complexity in this wine)
1985 Robert Michel Cornas. I thought it wonderful, yet never bought any more Cornas for a decade. That was stupid of me.
1995 Dulcinea Santos Ferreira Bairrada Sidónio de Sousa Garrafeira. Spritz-like acidity but a very interesting wine and arguably more recent vintages are better still
1980s Taltarni reds. By god they needed the age, but I rather enjoyed where they ended up
1985 Domaine Denis Père et Fils Pernand-Vergelesses (I'm not a huge Burgundy fan, but when old bottles shine, so does my smile, I just have to gamble of leaving it very long
1994 Domaine Florentin St. Joseph Clos de l’Arbalestrier) but with significant bottle variation. The better bottles were a joy
1969 Domaine Jaboulet-Vercherre Chambolle-Musigny 1er Cru Les Charmes - a candidate for the true star, making a Burg-loving friend of mine question a lifetime of drinking Burgundy mostly at 1-2 decades old
1989 François Pinon Vouvray Moelleux Premiere Trie see above on old vouvray
Old Borgogno Riserva Barolo. They needed age, but often (but far from always) rewarded
1996 Ronco delle Betulle Franconia Venezia Giulia IGT I love people making wine that appears capable of living forever, yet without the physique of a WWE wrestler
1964 Fratelli Rosotto Carema donnaz - amazing staying power for what must always have been quite a lean (but tannic) wine
1968 Castello di Monsanto Chianti Classico Riserva - enjoyable to share a very much alive wine, with a friend who had been enthusing about seeing the old bottles of this era in the winery when he visited.
White - Off-dry
1976 Michael Schäfer Burg-Layer Johannisberg Scheurebe Auslese
1984 Vinimpex Cabernet Sauvignon Reserve Oriahovitza - Bulgarian and used to be modestly priced on the Oddbins shelves. Wonderful long distance runner

Many of these came from the wine auction scene, plus a merchant friend who worked very hard in that scene. It was a great way to explore mature wines, before what I'd laid down myself hit proper maturity.

Cellared Margaret River reds are the most uniformly disappointing. (Leeuwin chardonnay is often better!)
Coonawarra is hit-and-miss as well; don't assume that Wynns JR is better than the black label.
Mount Pleasant reds were disappointing for 20 years up until about 2011 or so.
Penfolds the opposite; 20th century - terrific, 21st century raw and hot (to generalise).
I've often been pleasantly surprised by Yarra cabernet, even in weakish vintages; Wantirna, YY have been good, Mount Mary Q is pretty reliable most times.
I also find that a lot of producers don't quite live up to their reputation even with their 'flagship wine'; Cullen, Grosset, Petaluma.
Except for a few Graveyard shirazes and the 83 Lindemans, there are no good Hunter reds from the 80s or 90s.
Apart from 1991 and 1999 avoid SA in odd-numbered years since 1975...
cheers,
Graeme

I haven't had my cellar for long enough (4.5 years) to have a history of surprises or disappointments yet.

What will disappoint me most would be cellaring a bottle of wine I've had since release for say 20 years, only to find it's corked or otherwise stuffed upon opening it.

What will surprise me the most will be opening a bottle of a "lesser" wine I've had since release, to find that it has transformed into an epically magnificent wine.

GraemeG wrote:Cellared Margaret River reds are the most uniformly disappointing. (Leeuwin chardonnay is often better!)
Coonawarra is hit-and-miss as well; don't assume that Wynns JR is better than the black label.
Mount Pleasant reds were disappointing for 20 years up until about 2011 or so.
Penfolds the opposite; 20th century - terrific, 21st century raw and hot (to generalise).
I've often been pleasantly surprised by Yarra cabernet, even in weakish vintages; Wantirna, YY have been good, Mount Mary Q is pretty reliable most times.
I also find that a lot of producers don't quite live up to their reputation even with their 'flagship wine'; Cullen, Grosset, Petaluma.
Except for a few Graveyard shirazes and the 83 Lindemans, there are no good Hunter reds from the 80s or 90s.
Apart from 1991 and 1999 avoid SA in odd-numbered years since 1975...
cheers,
Graeme

I tend to agree with Greame on the MR and Coonawarra Cabs as well. I've been disappointed with too many of them and while I have quite a few in the cellar, they are not something I actively seek out these days. I just find that MR Cabs are a bit light on for me and often lack the body I like in a red wine. Having said that, I have had the odd MR and Coonawarra Cab that tempt me into buying again. Moss Wood from MR and Majella from Coonawarra are my picks.

I am still enamoured by Grenache and a bottle of 2010 Head Old Vine Grenache recently vindicated all my purchases the last few years.

But I am very glad that I have been buying Standish and Sami Odi for a few years now. The 2016 Standish Lamella is the best young Shiraz I think I've ever had. I can't remember the name of the 2015 vintage Sami Odi Shiraz but it was stunning as well.

Cheers
Ian

I have a fair few vintages of Tyrrell's Johnno's Semillon in the cellar, I like the texture and energy as a young wine, but I've never had a mature one. Hope it's positive and point of difference to Vat 1 etc, I know I like mature HV Sem so not much of a risk here.

I've started to cellar a few Barolo / Barbaresco in the past 6-8 available vintages, so hope I have a decent strike rate when they age, as I only have a limited quantity and selection. Couple of single bottles that I'll be gutted if they're corked or buggered.

A 2009 Freycinet Pinot Noir, that I've been threatening to open for a little while, I'm looking forward to, hope that's a positive surprise of aged-ish Aus Pinot.

Willard wrote:I have a fair few vintages of Tyrrell's Johnno's Semillon in the cellar, I like the texture and energy as a young wine, but I've never had a mature one. Hope it's positive and point of difference to Vat 1 etc, I know I like mature HV Sem so not much of a risk here.

I've started to cellar a few Barolo / Barbaresco in the past 6-8 available vintages, so hope I have a decent strike rate when they age, as I only have a limited quantity and selection. Couple of single bottles that I'll be gutted if they're corked or buggered.

A 2009 Freycinet Pinot Noir, that I've been threatening to open for a little while, I'm looking forward to, hope that's a positive surprise of aged-ish Aus Pinot.

You will be buggered if the Freycinet is corked
Let’s hope it is sc
My experience with them and TCA is woeful

michel wrote:

Willard wrote:I have a fair few vintages of Tyrrell's Johnno's Semillon in the cellar, I like the texture and energy as a young wine, but I've never had a mature one. Hope it's positive and point of difference to Vat 1 etc, I know I like mature HV Sem so not much of a risk here.

I've started to cellar a few Barolo / Barbaresco in the past 6-8 available vintages, so hope I have a decent strike rate when they age, as I only have a limited quantity and selection. Couple of single bottles that I'll be gutted if they're corked or buggered.

A 2009 Freycinet Pinot Noir, that I've been threatening to open for a little while, I'm looking forward to, hope that's a positive surprise of aged-ish Aus Pinot.

You will be buggered if the Freycinet is corked
Let’s hope it is sc
My experience with them and TCA is woeful

I’m almost 100% sure it is SC, though I haven’t looked at the bottle in a couple of years. Shame about your experience with their corks. I have had few of their wines, only a few vintages of Riesling.

I live in fear of EVERY single white burgundy I open
I maintain a collection of about 12 bottles and open the oldest one earliest
oldest vintage would be 2014 now.
A mate opened a six pack of 2004 Ravenau GC- one was good - 5 were premox.

Disappointments
I only started my cellaring/collecting journey 2 years ago. Last year I got married and we went on our honey moon. I know that almost everyone on these forums say that its overpriced etc. but I could not help myself. I purchased a bottle of Henschke Hill of Grace 2012 (duty free for $640) to cellar for our 25th anniversary. If figure it will be a once in a lifetime experience. I fear that the hype will outweigh the actual experience of drinking it. Same goes for the few duty free purchases of Mt Edelstone, Hill of Roses that I have.

While most of my collection is made of up of screwcaps from about 2010 onwards, I also fear my first "corked" experience which will inevitably happen one day. I have a few bottles of Mount Mary Quintet and various Torbrecks that are under cork...... hopefully they last.

Surprises
My biggest surprise I expect will be some of the Granite Belt reds that I have purchased that I think are very much underrated. I also have very little experience with aged whites so my first experience with an aged Reisling or Semillon will be a "surprise" in the sense that it will be a completely new experience for me. I have a few Grosset Reislings and Mt Pleasant Semillons in my collection.

tuxy85 wrote:Disappointments
I only started my cellaring/collecting journey 2 years ago. Last year I got married and we went on our honey moon. I know that almost everyone on these forums say that its overpriced etc. but I could not help myself. I purchased a bottle of Henschke Hill of Grace 2012 (duty free for $640) to cellar for our 25th anniversary. If figure it will be a once in a lifetime experience. I fear that the hype will outweigh the actual experience of drinking it. Same goes for the few duty free purchases of Mt Edelstone, Hill of Roses that I have.

While most of my collection is made of up of screwcaps from about 2010 onwards, I also fear my first "corked" experience which will inevitably happen one day. I have a few bottles of Mount Mary Quintet and various Torbrecks that are under cork...... hopefully they last.

Surprises
My biggest surprise I expect will be some of the Granite Belt reds that I have purchased that I think are very much underrated. I also have very little experience with aged whites so my first experience with an aged Reisling or Semillon will be a "surprise" in the sense that it will be a completely new experience for me. I have a few Grosset Reislings and Mt Pleasant Semillons in my collection.

on the weekend someone mention Tobin from Stanthorpe
have you tried them

How long's a piece of string? And therein lies the reason we cellar wine.
What I've learned from cellaring is expect the unexpected.
That's the beauty of the offlines we partake in. It really is wine roulette half the time and I'm often surprised what shines.

For me I have a handful of wines I'm quite looking forward to. Sometimes just because I give them an accidental glance when
I'm squirreling away in the cellar. One is a 2005 Tyrrell's Vat 1 Sémillon .Waiting for the right moment.
Another wine I'm looking forward to but with slight trepidation is a 2009 Jasper Hill Emily's Paddock.
Heard a lot of good things . Not sure on the vintage though.

anyway, give the dice a kiss and roll away folks.

recently, I have had no surprises and only disappointments from my cellar:

3 x 2006 Yangarra Highsands Grenache (varying levels of Oxidisation)
3 x 1999 Tahbilk 1860 Vines Shiraz (TCA)
1 x 2005 Gibson Australian Old Vine Collection Barossa Shiraz (TCA)
1 x 1998 Peter Lehmann Stonewell (Slightly Oxidised)

All cork closures

Starting to think its me/my cellar

Rossco wrote:recently, I have had no surprises and only disappointments from my cellar:

3 x 2006 Yangarra Highsands Grenache (varying levels of Oxidisation)
3 x 1999 Tahbilk 1860 Vines Shiraz (TCA)
1 x 2005 Gibson Australian Old Vine Collection Barossa Shiraz (TCA)
1 x 1998 Peter Lehmann Stonewell (Slightly Oxidised)

All cork closures

Starting to think its me/my cellar

whats your humidity ? temp ?
did you buy these in the secondary market or upon release?

michel wrote:
whats your humidity ? temp ?
did you buy these in the secondary market or upon release?

Yangarra, Peter & Tahbilks all at auction, so probably bad storage where the oxidation ones happened.
TCA is just tough sh1t really.

Gibson was bought cellar door and in my vintec from day 1..... but again thats TCA not ox.

Hardest pill to swallow was that ALL had PERFECT Corks with no weeping, no leakage and
perfect fill levels.

14 deg is where my Vintec is set.

Rossco wrote:

michel wrote:
whats your humidity ? temp ?
did you buy these in the secondary market or upon release?

Yangarra, Peter & Tahbilks all at auction, so probably bad storage where the oxidation ones happened.
TCA is just tough sh1t really.

Gibson was bought cellar door and in my vintec from day 1..... but again thats TCA not ox.

Hardest pill to swallow was that ALL had PERFECT Corks with no weeping, no leakage and
perfect fill levels.

14 deg is where my Vintec is set.

Provenance is key
it is exciting to open and older red from the cellar and people to be perplexed how young it looks
the 2001 Moss Wood still is a pup

dont get me started on TCA

michel wrote:

tuxy85 wrote:Disappointments
I only started my cellaring/collecting journey 2 years ago. Last year I got married and we went on our honey moon. I know that almost everyone on these forums say that its overpriced etc. but I could not help myself. I purchased a bottle of Henschke Hill of Grace 2012 (duty free for $640) to cellar for our 25th anniversary. If figure it will be a once in a lifetime experience. I fear that the hype will outweigh the actual experience of drinking it. Same goes for the few duty free purchases of Mt Edelstone, Hill of Roses that I have.

While most of my collection is made of up of screwcaps from about 2010 onwards, I also fear my first "corked" experience which will inevitably happen one day. I have a few bottles of Mount Mary Quintet and various Torbrecks that are under cork...... hopefully they last.

Surprises
My biggest surprise I expect will be some of the Granite Belt reds that I have purchased that I think are very much underrated. I also have very little experience with aged whites so my first experience with an aged Reisling or Semillon will be a "surprise" in the sense that it will be a completely new experience for me. I have a few Grosset Reislings and Mt Pleasant Semillons in my collection.

on the weekend someone mention Tobin from Stanthorpe
have you tried them

Yes I am a big fan of the Tobin Tempranillo and the Aged Semillon (5 year release). My favourite Granite Belt winery is Boireann which I think makes red wines to match Australia's best (Bourdeaux blend, Shiraz and Nebbiolo being the best). Unfortunately Boireann was recently sold so I'm not sure that the new owner/winemaker will be of the same standard. I have a case in storage which I look forward to bringing out in a decade or so.

tuxy85 wrote:

michel wrote:

tuxy85 wrote:Disappointments
I only started my cellaring/collecting journey 2 years ago. Last year I got married and we went on our honey moon. I know that almost everyone on these forums say that its overpriced etc. but I could not help myself. I purchased a bottle of Henschke Hill of Grace 2012 (duty free for $640) to cellar for our 25th anniversary. If figure it will be a once in a lifetime experience. I fear that the hype will outweigh the actual experience of drinking it. Same goes for the few duty free purchases of Mt Edelstone, Hill of Roses that I have.

While most of my collection is made of up of screwcaps from about 2010 onwards, I also fear my first "corked" experience which will inevitably happen one day. I have a few bottles of Mount Mary Quintet and various Torbrecks that are under cork...... hopefully they last.

Surprises
My biggest surprise I expect will be some of the Granite Belt reds that I have purchased that I think are very much underrated. I also have very little experience with aged whites so my first experience with an aged Reisling or Semillon will be a "surprise" in the sense that it will be a completely new experience for me. I have a few Grosset Reislings and Mt Pleasant Semillons in my collection.

on the weekend someone mention Tobin from Stanthorpe
have you tried them

Yes I am a big fan of the Tobin Tempranillo and the Aged Semillon (5 year release). My favourite Granite Belt winery is Boireann which I think makes red wines to match Australia's best (Bourdeaux blend, Shiraz and Nebbiolo being the best). Unfortunately Boireann was recently sold so I'm not sure that the new owner/winemaker will be of the same standard. I have a case in storage which I look forward to bringing out in a decade or so.

Boireann is a great visit
the old guy whom sold it was delightful
the wines a pretty solid with some time
the highlight for me was Robert Channon verdehlo with 3-4 year age - really special mouth feel

Surprise
Probably none, I reckon I know what to expect.
Sorrenberg often surprises me to an extent, as I forget how good this producer is.

Disappointment
Corked. Other than that, none, I know what to expect.
05 Burgundy will be a disappointment, when I get stuck into them in 2025, but not as surprising disappointment, as I already know what to expect. They will be good, but nothing like the hype spewed around in the first decade of their lives. Bit like 1996 is now, 20 years on (although 05 is a different style and better vintage than the now generally pretty crappy 96'ers. )

Most anticipated
2010 Bordeaux in 2025+

Least anticipated
opening anything from Penfolds, Wendouree Greenock Creek and Rockford. These days, only opened for friends, although they are still enjoyable for me, if not particularly interesting.

Surprise = Good vintages of lesser tiers from great producers. 07, 13 Awatea, some Kumeu River Estate. Also the odd random cheapie from the supermarket does surprise me. Sometimes I say "If all cheap wine was this good I wouldn't need a cellar"

Disappointment = Usually over oaked aged flagship aussie shiraz. I am sure I would pity some cellar owners on this forum lol

Most anticipated = The top NZ 2013 Bordeaux blends, Top rank classified bordeaux that you need way too much patience for

Least Anticipated = The remaining few wines of mine I know are over oaked and haven't travelled well. Some early church road reserves, early craggy range...i think i have now drunk my bad 90's mclaren and barossa stuff

Craig(NZ) wrote:
Least Anticipated = The remaining few wines of mine I know are over oaked and haven't travelled well. Some early church road reserves, early craggy range...i think i have now drunk my bad 90's mclaren and barossa stuff

Hi Craig, which Craggy Range vintages were you thinking about with this comment?

cheers Brodie

My biggest disappointment was a corked 1986 Henschke Hill of Grace Magnum.

Broke my heart pouring that down the sink on my birthday then reading days later I should have contacted the winery. Whoops. Live and learn I guess.

One of my biggest surprises was a bottle of 1998 Wirra Wirra Penley Cabernet. Phenomenal wine and my last bottle will not be opened for at least another decade. I wish I could find more.

DJ1980 wrote:My biggest disappointment was a corked 1986 Henschke Hill of Grace Magnum.

Broke my heart pouring that down the sink on my birthday then reading days later I should have contacted the winery. Whoops. Live and learn I guess.

One of my biggest surprises was a bottle of 1998 Wirra Wirra Penley Cabernet. Phenomenal wine and my last bottle will not be opened for at least another decade. I wish I could find more.

FWIW
I purchased the 1986 regular bottle $32
As a student
Cellared it
Opened the tca infested piece of crap
I too was stupid enough not to pursue replacement

michel wrote:I live in fear of EVERY single white burgundy I open
I maintain a collection of about 12 bottles and open the oldest one earliest
oldest vintage would be 2014 now.
A mate opened a six pack of 2004 Ravenau GC- one was good - 5 were premox.

Interesting, I was invited to a tasting of so odd burgundy producers last Thursday by the French consulate who were looking for representation. Whilst not being able to appreciate the complexities of the wines, I nevertheless had a most enjoyable time and was going to post a write up for you but left my notes on the train. A pity as some were superb.

The point of the post is I have been struggling to enjoy Chardonnay recently but really enjoyed the different style of Chardonnays from Burgundy. It was also the first time I’ve done a comparative tasting of three Chablis premier crus by the same producer and same vintage. Really interesting to see how vastly different the Fourchaume was to the Montmains - my preference being the latter. Also preferred it over the Les Clos. Now all I need to do it track down the label but I am tempted to start collecting some despite previous bad experience with the ones I got from Eurocentric.

Sounds encouraging
White burgundy with age is potentially so thrilling
BUT......,
premox

brodie wrote:

Craig(NZ) wrote:
Least Anticipated = The remaining few wines of mine I know are over oaked and haven't travelled well. Some early church road reserves, early craggy range...i think i have now drunk my bad 90's mclaren and barossa stuff

Hi Craig, which Craggy Range vintages were you thinking about with this comment?

cheers Brodie

The earlier the vintage, the more I worry. Craggy has slowly improved their oak regime, and it isn't an issue anymore but say 01 - 05 especially for me with their prestige labels. I did a full vertical of Quarry cabernet a few years ago and the were universally awful wines with furniture polish oak spewing forth. Le Sol is hit and miss from early vintages now. 02 was legendary on release, but now is very very oaky. Sophia too has been hit and miss from early vintages