The Auswine Forum

What would be the wines you would have as DOCG (the top wines)? Let's keep it simple and say 10 region / wine style combinations would form the initial list

To preface this, I'm a fan of the structure that Italy has, though in terms of 'guaranteeing' quality of DOCG wines... No, they've failed abysmally.

For simplicity's sake, let's define entry to Aussie DOCG as
- The wine style must be widely regarded/known, with large proportion of good quality examples, and relatively few high volume commercial wines of questionable quality (in this Australia would move a step ahead of the Italians, but could still be a challenge for many regions)
- The wines must have a good track record, let's say at least a decade where a number of producers were excelling
- The wine must be of a single defined region (e.g. Coonawarra, Grampians, ACT, Mudgee), i.e. no cross-regional blends a la Grange
- The wines must have a common recognisable 'typicity' though a degree of variation is expected
- Overall if you hear the name, you should be very confident in knowing broadly what to expect. The archetypal 'safe bet'.

I'll have a stab at it as well, here goes:
- Hunter Semillon
- Barossa Shiraz (wouldn't be in my top 10, but it would be crazy to exclude it)
- Rutherglen Muscat
- Rutherglen Tokay
- Margaret River Cab/Merlot/+ other blending varieties (With some arbitrary %s to ensure a degree of typicity)
- Clare Valley Riesling
- Hunter Shiraz (bit of a borderline case this, but I like them)
- Eden Valley Riesling
- Coonawarra Cabernet Sauvignon (allowing a small % of blending varieties)
- Finally either Yarra Valley Pinot Noir or Mornington Peninsula Pinot Noir, though perhaps Tassie also a challenger

Comment
> No chardonnay! Although very widely grown/produced and some great wines made, it seems producer is everything and no region has laid claim to having the upper hand over the others.
> I'd personally have Grampians Shiraz, but does it have the wider recognition?
> The pinot noirs & Hunter shiraz a bit flaky under the challenge of McLaren Vale shiraz, but my prejudice tilts it away from McLaren Vale!
> Clare Valley Shiraz probably makes a strong case as well


What would you choose as the archetypal top 10?

Regards
Ian

Why a limit of only 10??

Italy has 74 DOCG. Australia has 135K ha under vines while Italy has about 600K.
So I figure we should have at least 16 DOCG to keep the same ratio of designated wines / total land under vines

Interestingly, working that out has brought to my attention there is more area under vines in Romania than there is in Oz!

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics ... statistics

I would expand to 16 and then have both Yarra and Mornington Pinot Noir, and add Tasmanian Sparkling, Tumbarumba Chardonnay, Yarra Valley Cabernet Blend, McLaren Vale Shiraz, and... ? Clare Valley Shiraz or Cabernet Blend? Canberra Shiraz?

Also, would we leave it as broad as "Barossa"? Or would you single in a specific sub-district?

By all means go for more - I was keeping it to an initial 10 for simplicity, and if there is a very definitive sub-region, then feel free to call that out.

Why not 74? For me Italy lost the plot on DOCG, which was meant to be the very best, with each wine subject to a tasting panel to supply the 'guarantita' element of the DOCG. Instead politics (who would have thought it!) took over and huge amounts of undistinguished wine have been gifted the label. I really like Ghemme, but it does not deserve DOCG, if DOCG were to mean anything. The same for a multitude of other wines such as Gavi etc. where a handful of good producers don't outweigh the sea of mediocrity.

So all, what would be your choices?

This is a really great question. Let me preface my response by saying that when I first started getting into wine, I was not a fan of the French/Italian/etc appellation systems because they didn't indicate the grape variety you were drinking. I used to think how stupid it was that you'd read the label on the bottle on not know what you were going to drink. A bottle of Bordeaux could contain 6 different grape varieties and I'd be none the wiser. How wrong I was!

As I got more and more into old world wines, I realised that I actually prefer these old world appellation systems compared with the way we label bottles in Australia. To me, an old world appellation refers to a particular "style" of wine. If I open a bottle that's labelled Barolo or Gevrey Chambertin, I know pretty much what I'm going to get. There is generally a certain consistency between the various producers of a specific appellation because of all the rules they need to follow. The term "Riserva" actually means something in Italy.

When I see a bottle that's labelled Barossa Shiraz or Yarra Valley Pinot, there are too many stylistic differences between the various producers or even from different labels from the same producer. Without knowing the style of the producer, the label doesn't tell me that much. Yes, I know the grape variety I'm drinking and where it's from, but that frequently doesn't tell me what it's going to taste like. As an example, an Aussie Pinot can be made to taste like a Shiraz, and also vice versa. The term "Reserve" is meaningless here. Therefore, I don't think an Italian-style appellation system would work well in Australia as the winemakers have too much freedom in what they can do.

The folks at Wine Australia have a comprehensive list of Australian Geographical Indications on their website - https://www.wineaustralia.com/labelling/register-of-protected-gis-and-other-terms/geographical-indications.

Ian, any love for Grampians, central Victorian Shiraz?
Cheers
Craig

phillisc wrote:Ian, any love for Grampians, central Victorian Shiraz?
Cheers
Craig

Grampians Shiraz is the signature of the region for me. It's been tasted blind at many offlines I've been to and it's quite easy for people who know the style to pick it. Definitely belongs on the list.

I think that the way the Australian wine industry has evolved makes this a really hard thing to do in practice, but it makes for a good conversation.
Here are some of my thoughts....

Ian S wrote:- Clare Valley Riesling
- Eden Valley Riesling
Ian

While it is hard to argue against Clare Riesling in particular and to a slightly lesser extent the Eden valley at the current time, I can see a future where Clare and Eden won't be viewed as quite so dominant. This is no slight on Clare (I drink more than my fair share of it).
I have been increasingly impressed with the Riesling I have tried out of Canberra and Tasmania while Great Southern has more than a few high quality producers as well. If I was to pick my personal favorite Riesling in Australia, I'd have to say Crawford River out of Henty. I am very much looking forward to Riesling Downunder in Melbourne in early February.

Ian S wrote:- Finally either Yarra Valley Pinot Noir or Mornington Peninsula Pinot Noir, though perhaps Tassie also a challenger
Ian

Pinot is an interesting one. I don't think Tassie is there yet, but it may get there.
While Yarra valley and Mornington are the first places people tend to think of, when I gave it some more thought, I don't think it is as clear cut. Many people would consider Bass Phillip from Gippsland as the top of the Tree. The top of my personal pinot tree in Australia would be Bindi from Macedon. The Geelong region shouldn't be ignored either.. I'm thinking here of Bannockburn and By Farr but there are a bunch of others too.

Ian S wrote:> No chardonnay! Although very widely grown/produced and some great wines made, it seems producer is everything and no region has laid claim to having the upper hand over the others.
Ian

I actually think Chardonnay is a little easier than pinot. There are really two that are considered top of the tree... The Leeuwin Estate and the Giaconda. While there is some great chardonnay that comes from Margaret River, I think it is the cabernet that has put it on the map. I think Beechworth has been put on the map by its chardonnay (shiraz would come close though). You have obviously have Giaconda, but there are a whole lot of other top quality producers - some more established ones like Savaterre, and Sorrenberg and newer players like Domenica, Sentio and A. Rodda

Ian S wrote:> I'd personally have Grampians Shiraz, but does it have the wider recognition?
Ian

I think so. You've got a fair amount of history there and 3 top producers in Best's, Mount Langi Ghiran and Seppelts. Having said that you could mount a strong case for Heathcote shiraz too.

Beat me to it Paul, along with Grampians...lower western Victoria for Riesling...and still wished there was a Drumborg Cabernet made
Cheers
Craig

One producer doesn't make a region IMO. For me, there should be lots of good varietal wine produced to show a region is a benchmark. Therefore I'd pick MR and YV for chardonnay.

Wine style is important, too. Canberra 'syrah' is very different to Barossa 'shiraz', for example.

phillisc wrote:Ian, any love for Grampians, central Victorian Shiraz?
Cheers
Craig

Hi Craig
Very much so, probably my favourite region for Aussie Shiraz (vying with Hunter Valley). Rather a victim of my own arbitrary constraints, as I feel it doesn't get the wider recognition of the bigger wines from South Austrlalia. In terms of consistency of style, I really don't have the access to taste widely enough, but what I've had does seem to have a relatively consistent signature.
Regards
Ian

Hi Ozzie
An interesting reply, and the innovative freedom that Australia has always *enjoyed, does indeed seem to make it harder to pick a region / grape and instinctively know what you'll be getting. I reckon Hunter Semillon is the one that humps out, but even there there are significant variations e.g. Margan making a earlier drinking style vs. the more traditional ones style that demands cellar time to get the best out of them.

For me the great success of the Italian system wasn't DOCG, or the proliferation of sometimes meaningless DOC wines. Instead IGT offered Italian winemakers much of the flexibility that Aussie winemakers have enjoyed. The only real constraints are needing to have all grapes coming from within the specified region (can be as wide as Piemonte, Puglia etc.), plus only grapes that are recognised on the national registry are allowed, perversely preventing some rare native grapes being used! It gives producers the chance to experiment, without compromising (or trading off the good name) of the established wine style. Thus if you think Shiraz would be brilliant grown around Montalcino, then feel free to try it, but don't call it Brunello as people would be misled as to what they'd be getting. In time if the wines are good and/or others follow, then a new DOC or DOCG would emerge to cater for it, as happened with super tuscans and a few other DOCs.

Regards
Ian

* and would never give up, so this is indeed hypothetical.

Hi Paul
Lots of good comment here
Riesling - FWIW my favourite Aussie riesling was Delatite, though I don't know if there is much of a local scene. Haven't seen it in years though. I wouldn't bet against your prediction.
Pinot Noir - surprisingly tough isn't it! Similar in NZ where Otago was creating all the hype, yet I still prefer Martinborough. That could still change, and the challenges growing it, seems to make the learning curve that much longer. Unlike...
Chardonnay - In hindsight, perhaps it was always going to be the case, that a grape that people find easy, flexible and malleable in terms of winemaking, would be unlikely to have a definitive regional style. Beechworth is a good shout though.
Shiraz - As alluded to above, critical recognition and my enjoyment do not seem to gel that well. They almost all seem to love the bigger/richer styles, unless the sea-change in winemaking (in some parts) has been accompanied by a recognition from some of the critics?

Regards
Ian

Ian S wrote:
Pinot Noir - surprisingly tough isn't it! Similar in NZ where Otago was creating all the hype, yet I still prefer Martinborough. That could still change, and the challenges growing it, seems to make the learning curve that much longer. Unlike...

I completely agree with Martinborough and also believe there are good reasons why you naturally prefer it to Otago. The simple reason for this preference is that the established vineyards in Martinborough were planted long before Otago ever come into the picture and hence the vines are much older and produce more complex wines. Otago on the other hand is more fruit driven and appeals to a less experienced palate.

Mark

Ian S wrote:Riesling - FWIW my favourite Aussie riesling was Delatite, though I don't know if there is much of a local scene. Haven't seen it in years though. I wouldn't bet against your prediction.

I remember the Delatite, but also haven't had it for a long time. It is still around though.
Back in the late 90s while I was a Uni student, I worked in a restaurant on the Mornington Peninsula. A lot of the wines on the list were from the region and they served quite a lot by the glass, but with Mornington not being known for it's riesling they went further afield. The 3 rieslings I remember always being on the list were the Delatite, Howard Park and the Mitchelton Blackwood park. I was really just starting to learn about wine at the time. I'm not sure if I just don't remember or whether we didn't have Clare Rieslings.

Ian S wrote:Shiraz - As alluded to above, critical recognition and my enjoyment do not seem to gel that well. They almost all seem to love the bigger/richer styles, unless the sea-change in winemaking (in some parts) has been accompanied by a recognition from some of the critics?

I think that locally there is much more recognition of other regions, but internationally I think that might be a bit different. You'd be in a better place to comment on that I guess. I think it is a bit better in the UK as there are enough critics that spend enough time in Australia to understand the regionality and trends. In the US on the other hand, I have seen a lot of sweeping generalizations about what Australian shiraz is, based on wines that I have very little interest in.

Does that mean Grange will only be $20 a bottle since it is only a vin de pays?

dave vino wrote:Does that mean Grange will only be $20 a bottle since it is only a vin de pays?

Ha, ha, ha, nice one Dave.

Mahmoud.

dave vino wrote:Does that mean Grange will only be $20 a bottle since it is only a vin de pays?

This!!!