The Auswine Forum

Prompted by my comment on the Mornington thread and Crittenden's oxidative savagnin wines, just wondering if there is any love on the forum for Australian oxidative wine styles? There seems to be a bit of traction going on right now in wine circles especially after the positive identification of the Savagnin grape in Australia. I have tried many of them and they are getting better and better. Bloom by Brash Higgins was an interesting one lately. I suppose you could lump extended maceration or oxidative handling in here as well if you have tried an interesting one. Anton's "I left it out in the sun to rot" Sauvignon Blanc comes to mind. His words!
I should note I import oxidative wines but I have no affiliation to Australian wine makers. I am just really glad they are starting to explore this style of wine here to add to our ever growing experimentation of wines here in OZ and hoping it could prove an interesting topic. They could become the longest living non fortified Australian wines to ever be made.
So if anyone has had a recent Australian wine under voile yeast or just really interesting oxidative handling wines without being fortified, please post. What did you like about it? What did you dislike about it?
Greg

No love from me for oxidative styles! Not for table wines at least

Jura Savagnin... It took me a couple of tastes, and I was hooked. Nutty, spicy, curry leaf elements with fantastic acid and great length. Love 'em! (As you know Greg ). And Vin Jaune with age and the right food, wow.

Only had a smattering of New World ox wines, mostly quite good but always lacking that certain je ne sais quoi of good Jura examples. Actually (and all bias aside as he's a friend), the best New World one I've tried was made by fellow forumite dingozegan.

I look forward to trying more and here's hoping a few good ones get mentioned on this thread. I suspect there is a lot of potential fun to be had with the style here too away from the traditional French rule books.

Sorry I dislike oxidation in table wines. Seems like a fault more than an attribute to me. Obviously I'm not a fan of the Sommelier driven "orange" wines fad

I'm with Chris re oxidation, and don't get me started on Jura wines. Had a couple at Sydney off-lines last year. Not my style at all, dull, flat, awful for me

Guys, there is a big difference between oxidisation and oxidative styles. One is not the other, and it's definitely not a fault, is sherry faulty?

Also, 'dull and flat' are definitely not the words I would use to ever describe the better examples, exactly the opposite. 'Awful' of course is in the eye of the beholder, and we all have different tastes, no issue with that! Especially given how rare they are in Oz, maybe it's just as well... in fact yeah hey nothing to see here, forget we mentioned it, back to regular big fruit programming.

Not really a big fruit lover, prefer elegance over weight. Been to Vinitaly twice so have had plenty of oxidative handling wines. Still Each to their own. As long as I don't have to drink them no problem to me.

Yeah fair enough, elegance and balance is always high on my priority list too, no offense intended. But to say it's seems more like a fault got me a bit uptight, although as you say, each to their own. Many consider a touch of forest floor brett an immediate fault too, but I love it!

Chris H wrote:Not really a big fruit lover, prefer elegance over weight. Been to Vinitaly twice so have had plenty of oxidative handling wines. Still Each to their own. As long as I don't have to drink them no problem to me.

Same for me, nor am I a big fan of overt brett. I don't necessarily associate forest floor with brett either, we are all different

TiggerK wrote:Guys, there is a big difference between oxidisation and oxidative styles. One is not the other, and it's definitely not a fault, is sherry faulty?

I think you've got to have oxidation to get an oxidative style

True, but then again a lot of modern winemaking is done in an oxidative style, i.e the wine is exposed to oxygen somewhere along the way. There is a shift towards reductive winemaking, but many take it too far (esp in Oz IMHO) and the wine appears closed and rubbery. But for me oxidised and the way an 'oxidative style' wine shows are completely different.

I thought this article was quite good on the topic.

http://www.eater.com/2016/6/24/12019360/oxidative-wine-oloroso-sherry-rioja

A quote from it....

Oxidative wines are wines that have been deliberately exposed to oxygen during the winemaking process. Oxygen has a big impact on wine as it ages—too much during the winemaking process, or after bottling, and the wine can become oxidized—a major flaw. But if the winemaker controls the amount of oxygen, it can be harnessed to impart a special character that wine drinkers throughout the ages have enjoyed. When intentional, the effect is often sublime. We sometimes compare wine oxidation to the process of dry-aging meats … where essentially you are sacrificing a portion of the original product to yield a more complex and fulfilling final product. This is done by stressing the original stock (via oxygen exposure) to provoke its best traits to come forward in its defense.

I certainly understand that it can be an acquired taste as it was for me, but from reading the entirety of redsmurf's post in context, I think he was hoping for more constructive and contributive input and discussions on the topic from those who enjoy it, or are open to trying it, rather than a place to do battle on the topic for those already well and truly rusted-on against it.

In retrospect his mistake was probably the too-open-nature of the opening question.

mjs wrote:I'm with Chris re oxidation, and don't get me started on Jura wines. Had a couple at Sydney off-lines last year. Not my style at all, dull, flat, awful for me

I think I may have tasted one of the same Jura's you tried. We had the 2008 Jean Bourdy Cotes Du Jura at a Melbourne Offline last year. It was certainly a very polarising wine and was met with much discussion both during after the offline. I found it compelling to drink, as opposed to the typical Chardonnay style that I almost always find uninspiring to drink. I've never had another Jura since and it's not something I'd seek out, but it was interesting to try. A single grape variety isn't limited to just one style of wine -- Jura is the perfect example of that.

I think all of the oxidative Aussie wines I've had Redsmurf has already tried...

I can see where people get the "flat" from...if the oxidative qualities overpower everything else, the wine will come off as flat...and this is where acidity and even fruit intensity is important IMO...and even if you're not used to it, it may still come off as flat..

I also think it is interesting that people that don't like oxidative are ok with it in champagne...

I personally just like seeing winemakers trying it or trying something different....

mjs wrote:I'm with Chris re oxidation, and don't get me started on Jura wines. Had a couple at Sydney off-lines last year. Not my style at all, dull, flat, awful for me

Although I don't want this thread about the Jura...
Careful not to put all Jura wines under one banner after trying just a couple. It's a big area with many styles. It's like saying I hate all South Australian wines because I tried 4 from the Adelaide Hills from Uncle Dans and they were awful. Plenty of conventional winemaking done, its just very hard to get many of the top wines.
If you don't like oxidative style wines, fair enough.

odyssey wrote:I certainly understand that it can be an acquired taste as it was for me, but from reading the entirety of redsmurf's post in context, I think he was hoping for more constructive and contributive input and discussions on the topic from those who enjoy it, or are open to trying it, rather than a place to do battle on the topic for those already well and truly rusted-on against it.

In retrospect his mistake was probably the too-open-nature of the opening question.

Sure, I am after a thread discussing those that have tried Australian oxidative wine styles. Preferably with AWRI voile yeast but as there is not many around then I also added oxidative handling in as there are quite a few of those. I'm always happy for constructive banter though, good or bad. Just let us know why you didn't like that particular oxidative OZ wine.

When "in balance' I absolutely love them. Incredibly moreish.

It is a bit of each to their own, but the issue for me has been the way the wine media, and one wine journalist in particular, has presented the whole style.

As a retailer I see too many young hipsters, and older folk, come in and ask for "orange" or natural" wines. I get what they are after, but most of them, when questioned a little, don't really understand where the wines sit in relation to all other wines. "This is the way wine is supposed to be made" is too often the diction I get. What?? Since when?
In all the "oxidative" style wines I've had to judge, there's been an AWFULL lot that are just plain badly made. The whole category is blurred: is it "low sulphur', 'no sulphur" "skin contact", organic, bio dynamic.... and so on. The public is just totally, generally confused.

However, that's not to say there aren't any interesting ones ...... there are.

I think oxidative vs orange wines have been accidentally conflated in Australia. They are two different aspects of winemaking that have been lumped together.

A controlled oxidative style, made under a flor of yeast sherry-style, can yield incredible complexity (as opposed to incidental oxidation occurring during natural-winemaking)

I am not a fan of the few true orange wines I have had, I do find them flatter and thinner, often rubbery with what I personally have found to be offputting aromas.

On the other hand I have had some amazing flor-style oxidative wines (all Jura, though). I'd be very interested to try some well made non-orange oxidative Aussie wines.

PS. Vin Jaune is the most amazing beast, nutty and saline and ages forever.

I have tried only a couple of oxidative style wines from South Australia, so my knowledge base is limited. I am not a fan of what I have tried to date. One glass was enough, but I might be set in my ways though. From what I have heard a few younger winemakers are giving it a good crack, so I will keep an eye on these guys over the next couple of years.

Off Topic, but someone posted earlier about ‘non sulphured’ wines, agree, they are different kettle of fish. I recently dropped into KT Wines in the Clare Valley, she produces a white and a red non sulphured wine, the demand is high from "hipster type" bars in Sydney.

To come back to the original question:

The Bloom was interesting but a little too oily/awkward in its structure on the palate for me. I'd love to try the Crittenden.

Who else is doing (properly!) oxidative whites in Australia?

sch5252, which were the SA producers you tried?

TiggerK wrote:Actually (and all bias aside as he's a friend), the best New World one I've tried was made by fellow forumite dingozegan.

Well, cheers. Of course, your view might change if only Australia produced more of them

I have really enjoyed the few jura's I've had, all at offlines in the last couple of years.
I guess I'm a bit spoilt though, considering they were brought along by members that had sourced and sampled prior, and had a somewhat passion for this interesting style which would have ensured they were decent examples.
I can understand it's a style that will be very controversial, especially if you take your first try from something sub standard.
I was reading up a bit about it recently, very interesting about the umami flavour and explains to me why I am a fan.
As should every Vegemite loving Aussie!

Rory wrote:It is a bit of each to their own, but the issue for me has been the way the wine media, and one wine journalist in particular, has presented the whole style.

As a retailer I see too many young hipsters, and older folk, come in and ask for "orange" or natural" wines. I get what they are after, but most of them, when questioned a little, don't really understand where the wines sit in relation to all other wines. "This is the way wine is supposed to be made" is too often the diction I get. What?? Since when?
In all the "oxidative" style wines I've had to judge, there's been an AWFULL lot that are just plain badly made. The whole category is blurred: is it "low sulphur', 'no sulphur" "skin contact", organic, bio dynamic.... and so on. The public is just totally, generally confused.

However, that's not to say there aren't any interesting ones ...... there are.

Rory, I appreciate that you can't name the Awful ones but what are the interesting ones?

Agree that oxidative wines are becoming linked to the natural wine movement but there are still conventional oxidative wines.

dingozegan wrote:To come back to the original question:

The Bloom was interesting but a little too oily/awkward in its structure on the palate for me. I'd love to try the Crittenden.

Who else is doing (properly!) oxidative whites in Australia?

sch5252, which were the SA producers you tried?

Si Vintners and Kangarilla Road are also doing voile wines. I'm hoping there are more out there and someone can chime in.
I would love it if some of our sherry producers kept some unfortified wines aside. With their established yeast populations, they could make some fantastic oxidative wines.
And yes sch5252, let us in on the wines you had. I'm keen to try them!

I am a fan of it, but on the proviso that it's only a glass or two. I don't think it's something I'd sit and get through a whole bottle of. Although of the ones I've had most can live in the fridge quite happily for a time without affecting them too adversely.

For me they are wines to be shared amongst friends not one that you sit by yourself watching the footy with.

Red Smurf Wrote:

Rory, I appreciate that you can't name the Awful ones but what are the interesting ones?

Whilst technically not "orange" wines, they are both 'skin contact" whites, which ultimately have the same affect as there is no added sulphur:

Allies Cotier Chardonnay... Barney Flanders has done a great job of keeping things in balance.
And as posted further up, Crittenden Savagnin.

Rory wrote:Allies Cotier Chardonnay... Barney Flanders has done a great job of keeping things in balance.
And as posted further up, Crittenden Savagnin.

Thanks for those. What did you think of the Crittenden?
I wouldn't call the Garagiste Cotier Chardonnay oxidative in style at all though.

Red Smurf wrote:Si Vintners and Kangarilla Road are also doing voile wines.

Have you tried them?

Love well made oxidative wines, including Juras and champagne but especially fortifieds which are a gift from the heavens. I'm a sucker for that juxtaposition of sweet and umami that you can only get through deliberate oxidation.

Sherry, although I admit I do prefer the non-oxidative fino, Madeira, Vinsantos (especially the outstanding originals from Greece) tawny port and muscats are wonderful oxidative style wines.
The most glorious though would be the Au Fil du Temps style from Rivesaltes. Now those are wow wines.