The Auswine Forum

This old chestnut again!

Well not exactly.

Prompted by Jamie in the what are you drinking thread:

JamieBahrain wrote: I'm noticing this in a number of screw capped Aussie wines from a decade or so ago where the development isn't just stunted, but often they seem strangled by the screw cap.

What are peoples thoughts? I've noticed it too in many screw caps the development is being retarded. I'd like to see if in another 10 years time wines that are under screw cap loose something in their development or if their development is akin to the same wine under cork half it's age.

Well I'm thinking 1 out of 6-12 premium Aussies corked is a better option than this unfolding disaster! Some wineries must have got it very, very wrong!

Not seeing it. Not a problem as far as I'm concerned.

Rubbish. Screwcap acts like the best cork. When you open an old red made before the advent of screwcaps that drinks beautifully, the cork has done its job. Screwcap does the same thing without the lottery of cork.

Enjoy http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=128648&hilit=screwcap

As for me, I don't have enough experience with either but i've not had a "faulty" screwcap wine unless it was bad winemaking... and that's not due to the closure.

The variable ingress screwcaps sound like the best of both worlds, but I haven't seen any bottles/wines that state they use this? I'm pretty sure judging by what ppl say, that it is used... It would be nice to see how variable the ingress used. From when did they start to use these types of screwcaps? I'm assuming the original screwcaps had no or extremely small permeability? Do these types of screwcapped wines age?

I know Kevin will bring up Ardea seal... i like them cause they look cool...

I have got bottles of both closures of Lakes Folly 2014 cab. Ill have a view in 10 years.

Until then i prefer screw caps as i have had a bad run with corks.

I've drank a few 2001 Cullen Diana Madeline's in the past 12-18 months, all sealed under cork except for one. The best bottle was the one sealed under stelvin. I didn't cellar these myself from release, so one could argue the provenance/storage conditions played a role. However, I'm not taking that side. I believe the best bottle was the best one because it was sealed under stelvin.

In a Wine Front article last year, they reported on some bottles from a case of 2002 Marius Shiraz which they had cellared from release. Six bottles were sealed with cork and six with screwcap. The screwcapped bottles won convincingly.

While stelvin isn't the panacea of wine closures, I like the notion of cellaring a case of wine from release and each bottle tasting exactly the same upon opening (if all opened at the same time). I like the notion of the wine tasting as the winemaker intended, without the effects of premature oxidation or TCA. I believe this can only be achieved with a screwcap seal.

My issue and is primary fruit flavors out of kilter with structural evolution. In some wines its like a strangulation; retarded, hard and simple berry fruit with barely whispy tannins.If the issue is prevalent it will be as bad as the Parkerized high alcohol stigma for Aussie wines abroad.

A number of wineries have jumped on the screw cap bandwagon without trial and a Great White Hope.

Jamie's fault for storing them too well.


Seriously though, I suppose storing them a touch warmer (i.e 14 or 15 instead of 12C) might help a bit, but better yet, be more patient! Or realise that we don't know how the same wine would be developing under cork anyway (just guessing based on other vintages etc), and that's assuming that it's under a perfect cork, which few are, hence the reason for the change in the first place.

It's the variability of cork permeability that gives SC far more benefit in storing wine than elimination of TCA. I'd certainly like to see more producers using screwcaps that allow a touch more permeability for certain wines, but given the choice of SC or cork?? #fucork

deejay81 wrote:Enjoy http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=128648&hilit=screwcap

My favourite quote on that thread (well, on the first couple of pages) from Ian S (who posts here as well) in response to those saying a screw cap inherently cheapens a wine:

It cheapens the wine that they don't serve it in amphorae any more ... and what's with the cheapskates who can't even add the usual resin, herbs, seawater and honey. Progress? Bah!

There are some sweeping 'generalisations' here;
Is screw cap better for whites or reds, or both?
Screw cap is the best known seal for sparkling wines, but has a high failure rate.
Unless you have multiple wines of 5,10,15 etc years of age, side by side, stored under the same conditions with both seals to compare you'd never really truly know.

Not an issue for me. I am currently enjoying beautifully mature riesling under screwcap.

Zealots and fundamentalists, those with faith and those that despise, love em all

Kind of agree with Jamie. I used to dodge cork like the plague, but am not as convinced by screwcap now. I have a 2004 Barossa Cab under both screw cap and cork, so will try them soon. Might take them to an offline for others opinions.

I recently had a 2004 Nine Popes under screw cap and couldn't believe how young it was, the same wine under cork was exceptional. Beautifully aged and a pleasure to drink whereas the screw cap version tasted like a 3-4 year old wine at best.

Maybe the winemakers just have to work out which coupons to use and perhaps make the wine slightly differently. But most wine is consumed within a week of purchase anyway, so maybe they just go with that.

Also interesting that Greenock Creek did one vintage with screw cap and went back to corks. I'm told that pro cork almost guarantee their corks nowadays.

Cheers
Ian

sjw_11 wrote:

deejay81 wrote:Enjoy http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=128648&hilit=screwcap

My favourite quote on that thread (well, on the first couple of pages) from Ian S (who posts here as well) in response to those saying a screw cap inherently cheapens a wine:

It cheapens the wine that they don't serve it in amphorae any more ... and what's with the cheapskates who can't even add the usual resin, herbs, seawater and honey. Progress? Bah!

Ooops

Somehow I missed this thread first time round. I'd like to '+1' Ross' comment about fundamentalists / zealots. It's easy to plonk ourselves in one trench or the other and stop listening to the arguments of those in the other trench, especially when we see them throwing grenades (and don't see our own).

It is also too easy to see the argument as simply cork vs. screwcap, but there are options in each, not just in the closure itself (e.g. corks from different sources / with different quality controls, but also cork derived alternatives, variants on screwcap including specified permeability to oxygen), but also in the way a different closure variant may require a slightly different treatment for the wine (e.g. SO2 additions).

I've yet to see the problems mentioned with screwcaps and have appreciated the extra *1 in 20 bottles I get to drink rather than pour down the sink. However time will still tell and I've no doubt the winemakers will eventually settle on a specific closure that gives them the wines they want over the timescale they intend. There was a lot to take onboard as part of this transition and I've no surprise some struggled.

regards
Ian

* actually more than this for people who enjoy mature / over-mature wines, when a cork may not be tainted, but overly porous and hence the wine is prematurely aged / oxidised.

With the SC v Cork debate in mind...
Why is 2010 Pennies 707 under SC and
2010 Grange under cork?
I get a sense that if Grange was sealed with a screw cap
then its icon status might be compromised.
Is it possible that the theatre and lack of appeal of a screw cap
is more important than what the cork brings to the table as a closure?
I would've thought that the aging potential of 707 and Grange are pretty similar.
So why different closures?

And I would also like to know the reason why a winery like Greenock Creek swapped back to cork?
I would've thought that the wines weren't under screw cap long enough to make a call either way on closure options.
Again, is it a backwards marketing step to the OS market going to SC?
Have the corks improved ? etc etc.

I've raised the SC v Cork a few times with wine makers and always seem to get a semi shrugged shoulder response.
I've never really encountered a line in the sand type response either way.

I think the fact that there is a permeable screw cap definitely says to me there's some very crucial science at play
in regards to closures. But who is using these closures.?

I think the science world need to stop mucking around with the Large Hadron Collider
and start working on the SC v Cork issue immediately.

I was in the US earlier in the year and noticed that St Hugo was sold under cork where it is bottled under SC here. It suggests to me that choice of closure was a perception/marketing gimmick in that wine under cork is perceived as more high end.

If I had a choice between the two, I would choose SC over cork every time. Comments like wines taster younger/fresher is a positive to me in that I can now store my wines for a much longer period.

I have some 2006 Hanging Rock Heathcote shiraz under screw cap and diam and my impression is that the screw cap version was more evolved than the diam version and in a pretty good place at 10 years old. There isn't a lot said about how diams impact aging.

I've been pretty happy with the development of the wines I have recently tried in that 7 - 10 year old range that I have under screw cap, but don't have many older than that. I am sure there will be some producers that didn't get it right initially, but I think there are plenty that did. My cellar certainly wouldn't be as "premium" as some, so I am probably not comparing apples with apples, but on balance I'm pretty comfortable with my screw capped wines. I am also not willing to accept 1 out of every 6 -12 wines being faulty either.

Had a direct one-to-one of Petaluma 2004 Riesling from same provenance - one screwcap and one cork. The cork bottle was corked (couldn't even taste it, the SC bottle was still young and delicious. I've had enough troubles with cork to have to hold my breath every time I pull a cork nowadays. And have never had the same problem with an SC bottle. Yes, some are still young compared to what I might have previously expected, but that simply means more time is required.
Makes storing wine for 20 years a doddle compared to the lottery under cork.
I'll still buy individual bottles from reputable merchants with cork - as I know I'll be able replace it if it's not up to scratch. But I don't buy dozens any more unless they're SC-d.

iPhone China firewall brevity

- I didn't have issues with Riesling as there seemed to have been extensive trials and perhaps the wine stylistically suited . My house quaffed this month 12 year old Austrian Riesling which was excellent .

- it wasn't the old sc versus cork debate.

- I'm concerned that many wineries , Wendourree for example, who have jumped into sc without trial.

- cork outperforms seemingly backward, strangled wines under SC. that's my issue the blind freddy approach to sc by some wineries may be a huge issue .

- Time may not heal winemaking or bottling errors under screw cap. The lag in evolution between fruit and structure is plain odd.

Jamie,

Wendouree has also gone through a style change as well...so it makes it really hard to say...I don't think places have necessarily jumped into SC with trial..but the extent of that trial is unknown...

I understand your point though...It would suck to find that the wines didn't change properly under SC...

I like the theory behind diam, and Castagna seem to summarise the reasons quite well in this note (scroll down to the bottom of the page);

https://castagna.com.au/castagna/wines-old/

I took a bunch of screwcap and cork sealed wines over to BDX in 2011, from 2001 vintage. (I wish I could find the article I wrote), and there was

Cullen SC – Sullen and backwards, but built up with air and came good.
Cullen cork – mildly corked.

Voyager SC – minor reduction, took a while to come up, fresher than cork and neck and neck for quality. Bordeaux winemakers preferred over cork sample.
Voyager cork – perfect similar to SC but more well rounded, less ‘fruity’.

Howard Park SC – open, perfumed and brilliant. Great example.
Howard Park cork – oxidised

Moss Wood SC – looked great. Did not get the cork sealed bottle in time to compare, sadly. Top wine of the tasting for the Bdx winemakers.

Take from that what you will given this was largely an experimental bottling back in 2002. Things would have only got better.

Wines at tasting were (all from my cellar other than 2,3,8).
List of 2001 Wines Tasted in Order
1. Lakes Folly Red (cork – Hunter Valley)
2. Ch Grand Mayne (cork – St Emillion)
3. Ch La Gaffliere (cork – St Emillion)
4. Mount Mary Quintet (cork – Yarra Valley)
5. Yeringberg (cork – Yarra Valley)
6. Parker Estate Terra Rossa (cork – Coonawarra)
7. Moss Wood (SC – Margaret River)
8. Cullen (cork – Margaret River)
9. Cullen (SC – Margaret River)
10. Voyager Estate (cork – Margaret River)
11. Voyager Estate (SC – Margaret River)
12. Howard Park (cork – Great Southern/Margaret River)
13. Howard Park (SC – Great Southern/Margaret River)

Scotty vino wrote:With the SC v Cork debate in mind...
Why is 2010 Pennies 707 under SC and
2010 Grange under cork?
I get a sense that if Grange was sealed with a screw cap
then its icon status might be compromised.
Is it possible that the theatre and lack of appeal of a screw cap
is more important than what the cork brings to the table as a closure?
I would've thought that the aging potential of 707 and Grange are pretty similar.
So why different closures?

And I would also like to know the reason why a winery like Greenock Creek swapped back to cork?
I would've thought that the wines weren't under screw cap long enough to make a call either way on closure options.
Again, is it a backwards marketing step to the OS market going to SC?
Have the corks improved ? etc etc.

I've raised the SC v Cork a few times with wine makers and always seem to get a semi shrugged shoulder response.
I've never really encountered a line in the sand type response either way.

I think the fact that there is a permeable screw cap definitely says to me there's some very crucial science at play
in regards to closures. But who is using these closures.?

I think the science world need to stop mucking around with the Large Hadron Collider
and start working on the SC v Cork issue immediately.

I bought a case each of the Penfolds 2004 Special Bins under SC in the US of all places.... And these were being sold for more than the Grange release at the time. Certainly these wines had icon status despite being under SC

any wine that has not seen any new or newish wood should be under screwcap (or other inert closure). Those who add a woody (cork) to an unwooded wine are adding an element that is at odds with the premise of 'unwooded'.
Currently there are firms touting 100% TCA free corks and charging a premium. I call BS on the 100% claim.

JamieBahrain wrote:
- cork outperforms seemingly backward, strangled wines under SC. that's my issue the blind freddy approach to sc by some wineries may be a huge issue .

- Time may not heal winemaking or bottling errors under screw cap. The lag in evolution between fruit and structure is plain odd.

Some very interesting discussion as always on this topic. A few thoughts of my own, in particular response to these two comments by Jamie.

In terms of screw cap leaving wines backwards, I would have thought this unsurprising and reflective of a lower level of oxygen ingress is allowing wines to stay fresher and more closed longer in bottles under screw cap. To me, this sounds like ideal packaging to allow long-term storage of wine.

I am not convinced that wine under screw cap will show NO development, even over say twenty years. My experience of screw cap wines of 5-10yrs indicates distinctive development just with far less evidence of detractive oxidation/tertiary characters developing and a greater level of "freshness" (consistent with many other comments here, and a descriptor I would rarely see as a negative).

For shorter-term cellaring, I imagine the downside of this- a more "closed" wine on first opening- could be substantially ameliorated by a more robust decant than might be applied to a similar wine under cork (as Gary's French experiment suggests).

In terms of the argument that this means a wine that suffered initially from reduction will always do so, or Jamie's comment that under screw cap "time may not heal winemaking or bottling errors"... Umm, why are you wanting to buy faulty wine in the first place?

In this example, all the screw cap is doing is allowing you to see the faults in the wine which previously were masked by or falsely attributed to the bark stopper. In this sense, as others have said, the screw cap is allowing the wine to more accurately and consistently express the intent of its maker and its source of origin, rather than the vagaries of packaging and storage.

JamieBahrain wrote: I'm noticing this in a number of screw capped Aussie wines from a decade or so ago where the development isn't just stunted, but often they seem strangled by the screw cap.

Full marks to Jamie for "daring" to bring this up in a forum that has tended to look at corks as the last vestige of a Luddite conspiracy. Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration but I'm glad that Jamie's assertion has been taken in the spirit of decorum, unlike what took place on Winebeserkers. In that forum what started out as a relatively polite conversation in the first two pages escalated to the point where opinions of those who expressed a preference for cork were consistently misunderstood, derided or rebuked, to the point where one member abandoned the thread and another announced his intention to resign from the forum.

For my own part I am not invested in any one closure or the other, I buy and collect wine, not closures. Whichever way the wine maker chooses to seal his/her wine is generally fine with me. Earlier this month I bought a bottle of '06 St Henri and didn't even notice the closure. It was only later, when I checked the literature to read about the vintage and came across something about a security etching on the bottle did I realize that I also didn't know how the wine was sealed. I had to go in search of the wine to check - it was under screw cap, and yes St Henri was faintly etched on the bottle. Basically, if I want the wine I buy it, regardless of the closure. However, these days I tend not to want wines that require decades of cellaring so I am quite content to buy wines under cork. Also, I have to admit that I have very few red wines under screw cap and am not particularly fussed about it. And if I came across a wine that was sealed under both cork and screw cap I would likely experiment by buying both.

I think one thing we can agree with is that in the last decade or so the quality of corks has apparently improved as has the technology of the linings of screw caps. The interesting thing about Jamie's comment is not that he said anything against screw caps in general but about "a number of screw capped Aussie wines from a decade or so ago..." I understand Jamie's comment to mean that the early screw caps may not be as good as they are now, and that perhaps some winemakers did not adjust the wine making to accommodate the new seals. Those are the wines he seems to referring to, not necessarily the ones today. Of course I don't intend to put words in his mouth but it strikes me as a more nuanced observation than merely a cork versus screw cap comment.

Cheers........................Mahmoud.

One last thought... one other thing I noted from the other forum is the potential there is an age gap, so to speak, in this issue- and one that has nothing to do with romanticism or nostalgia.

As a 31yr old collector whose wine is about 12,000 miles away, I am currently prizing potentially for 20+ yrs ageing, to minimize the risk I buy wine now and never get to drink it before it collapses.

If I was older and wanted to maximize pleasure of wine I would cellar for 3-5yrs only then the earlier approachability of wines under cork may be more desirable to me

(though I still think a more robust decant would be sufficient to let the screw capped wines recovery their full glory-- but that is very much a personal feeling not a fact-based assertion).

Mahmoud Ali wrote:Full marks to Jamie for "daring" to bring this up in a forum that has tended to look at corks as the last vestige of a Luddite conspiracy. Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration but I'm glad that Jamie's assertion has been taken in the spirit of decorum, unlike what took place on Winebeserkers. In that forum what started out as a relatively polite conversation in the first two pages escalated to the point where opinions of those who expressed a preference for cork were consistently misunderstood, derided or rebuked, to the point where one member abandoned the thread and another announced his intention to resign from the forum.

That's like every longish thread on WB...although I haven't seen the cork/sc debate get as bad on there as you're describing..but of course I'm comparing it to the many long threads where suddenly their legal credentials start popping up and the conversations start becoming an insult fest.....

Polymer wrote:
That's like every longish thread on WB...although I haven't seen the cork/sc debate get as bad on there as you're describing..but of course I'm comparing it to the many long threads where suddenly their legal credentials start popping up and the conversations start becoming an insult fest.....

Yes it is something to 'ready yourself for' before posting there. There is usually at least one sociopath on duty every day, and sometimes they have team bonding sessions on the forum. That said (and I recall others writing this well before I joined the forum), there are lots of decent, thoughtful and knowledgeable people there and many genuinely interesting threads. In many ways it is improving, but it's a long road and having formed out of the Squires censorship / purges on Ebob, it will always fiercely guard the concept of free speech.

Had I not read the forum for a while before posting, I may have reacted more to this early exchange:
http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vie ... =9&t=99276

regards
Ian