The Auswine Forum

Hi guys,

Your input would be most appreciated!

Obviously, only 3 bottles per person allowed. So which nice wines can you buy in France (Paris) for considerably less money than you'd pay in Australia. Classic wines like classified Bordeaux, 1er/Grand Cru Burgundy, Hermitage/Cote Rotie, Grand Cru Alsace, etc. Good auction price (percentage-wise with respect to the purchase price) would be good in case I wasn't as expected taste-wise.

Thanks in advance!

I would look to buy aged wine, of whatever you like.

Australia is obviously a lot warmer, so it is a lot harder (and riskier) to purchase aged French wine here in good condition.

As to what you buy - I'd say Burgundy would be the best "value" - most Australian importers/retailers seriously gouge consumers when it comes to rare Burgundy. Burgundy is also probably most sensitive to storage conditions, so a cold Euro cellar would be ideal to purchase from.

My first thought, on seeing the subject line of the post, was "whatever that isn't likely to be available in Australia". However, much depends on what you already have in your cellar and what you feel you need to buy as almost any French wine would be cheaper in Paris than it is in Australia. Then there is your budget. Aged wines from the classic appellations are likely to be found in the fancier stores and would be relatively expensive.

As you are only allowed three bottles duty free may I suggest you look for wines from regions you wont find in Australia, things like Jura, Loire, Savoie, etc. One of way going about it is to taste wines for sale in wine bars that also sell it at retail. When I was in Paris a couple of years ago, there was a wine bar around the corner from where I stayed. They specialized in wines from small producers of natural and organic wine known to the owner. One could buy the bottle to take home or, for the same price, drink the bottle along with bread, cheese and charcuterie. I ended up buying a deliciously drinkable Cahors as well as a Macon-Charnay (Chardonnay) and a Vin de Pays des Collines Rhodaniennes Syrah, all from small production, conscientious vignerons. I also bought a Corsican wine, how unique is that! I couldn't have been happier.

A wine which I didn't buy due to space limitations were whites from Savoie, made from grapes called Altesse and Jacquère - delicious wines they were.

Cheers...............Mahmoud.

Tarija. Good points made. Importers mark ups don't always tally with auction prices if I did decide to sell.

Mahmoud. Thanks for your detailed reply. I did say I wanted classic regions, though

I would get whatever you can't find in Australia....

But % wise..all of the cultish big names from well known regions are marked up heavily in Australia..so any of them would be fine...

Chave Hermitage is a wine I'd probably want to get..bigger than normal markup if you can find it in Australia...not sure that is the style you want though....

Bordeaux is so easy to find..but that's always a safe bet..

Burgundy is a weird one because it already carries so many layers of markup and the supply is so constrained so while it is definitely cheaper, sometimes you can get decent prices in Australia on some things....it feels rather inconsistent.

All, I know the cost of top end French wine can be frustrating in Australia, but please don't always assume you are being gouged by importers / wholesalers. Tax rates are very low in France for wine, where they constitute approx 50% of the cost of a bottle when imported to Australia.

For personal consumption, I import some Champagne that is under E15 at the grower, but has cost $40 by the time it reaches my cellar. Let's say I wanted to wholesale this, and make a 30% profit, and then the retailer wants to make a 30% profit. I'd have to wholesale at $57, and the retailer sell just over $80.

This retail price may sound like a lot, but I hope we'd all agree that making 30% is not gouging...it is making a level of gross profit that hopefully results in net profit after the costs of running the business are taken into account.

Do I agree with the Australian tax rules on wine? No, but of course I wouldn't...as it's designed to make expensive wine more, and cheap wine cheaper...and I buy (comparatively) expensive wine!

Note: I don't work for a wine retailer / importer.

simon1980 wrote:All, I know the cost of top end French wine can be frustrating in Australia, but please don't always assume you are being gouged by importers / wholesalers. Tax rates are very low in France for wine, where they constitute approx 50% of the cost of a bottle when imported to Australia.

For personal consumption, I import some Champagne that is under E15 at the grower, but has cost $40 by the time it reaches my cellar. Let's say I wanted to wholesale this, and make a 30% profit, and then the retailer wants to make a 30% profit. I'd have to wholesale at $57, and the retailer sell just over $80.

This retail price may sound like a lot, but I hope we'd all agree that making 30% is not gouging...it is making a level of gross profit that hopefully results in net profit after the costs of running the business are taken into account.

Do I agree with the Australian tax rules on wine? No, but of course I wouldn't...as it's designed to make expensive wine more, and cheap wine cheaper...and I buy (comparatively) expensive wine!

Note: I don't work for a wine retailer / importer.

Simon, I can't completely agree with you. In France most wines go through wholesalers (some times) and retail. One would assume margins should be relatively similar, so there is apples and apples. Plus wine in France has VAT equivalent of 20% vs all in taxes in Oz of 49%, so there is a definite difference there. Transit I am told is $2 pb. Yet many wines are double or triple the price in many markets. Someone is making big markups somewhere.

Are you visiting any wine regions?
When are you visiting France? The foire aux vins season is about to start. Supermarkets vary their dates.

Ganevat
Sylvain Cathiard
Chave

78 Henri Jayer Richebourg Grand Cru.

Cheers everyone!

Dave and Rocky, thanks for being specific (very from Rocky - was that tongue in cheek?) Why those wines in particular?

Mark, never heard of foire aux vins. A quick Google didn't really help. Please could you explain? Thanks.

Another way of looking at this question is which wines are most overpriced in Australia in the auction market as well as retail.

swirler wrote:Mahmoud. Thanks for your detailed reply. I did say I wanted classic regions, though

I understand, but if it's the classic regions you want then you already have your answer, right? And since you're allowed three bottles, how about one Bordeaux, one Burgundy and one Rhone.

Cheers.................Mahmoud.

Yes, tongue in cheek. Point I was making was - when in France the world's your oyster re wine. Enjoy the moment and don't be afraid to splurge. The journey is magical.

Lots of nice sentiments! Thanks.

Maybe people could tell us what they brought back as an investment. I like most styles of wines, I just wanted a win-win combination: A wine that I like that has resale potential.

TYIA!

Sounds like you're mainly interested in the resale..which is fine..but it would be easier if you just said so...

You're only bringing back 3..doesn't leave a lot of room for duplicates...

Ok.look for a 2005/09/10 Bordeaux or burgundy in the 50-100 euro range. You won't be disappointed.

Well, I'm not going alone, I'll be be traveling with someone who doesn't drink wine, so a six pack is a possibility. Sometimes it's easier/cheaper to buy in quantity.

Tasting before buying probably won't be possible, so if I bought a cheap wine and found I didn't like it so much, normally, I'd just shrug my shoulders. Expensive wine is different. I'd rather sell it if it wasn't to my taste. Then at last carrying a heavy box of wine bottles halfway around would still have its compensation.

I guess I'll just have to resort to wine searcher to identify specific Wines.

Pretty much everything you bring back will probably resell for more than what you bought it for...But if your goal is really to try to resell, you should probably do your own legwork...

If you want recommendations on wine.
You've had plenty of recommendations on here...

It would also help if you described what you like to drink and the styles..I don't think it is most styles as you've said....If you can't describe what you like then describe the wines themselves...

I don't see why you're so interested in maxing out or finding which is the most overpriced wine auction wise...if you're buying wine to drink but worried about having bought a wine you don't like, knowing you'll get your money back out of it (plus some) should really be your only concern..

If you're really not that interested in reselling my apologies..but you've mentioned it several times and what you've said in the last few posts basically spells out "I really just want to know what is going to make me the most money"...rather than "what wine am I going to love that I may rarely ever get a chance to try in Australia?"

Barolo and Barbaresco.

Ahhh France... I remember buying Domaine Huet Vouvray at the Galleries Lafayette for about a third of what you'd pay here.

I don't buy wine as an investment so in my case lugging wine around Europe was only an option if the wine evoked a great memory.

In Bourgueil we stayed in this great little place called La Promenade, a wine lovers dream with great rustic food and loads of local wine. On our last morning the owner took us for a drive in his almost 20 year old 500SL to Domaine de Chevalerie. The same family has owned the place for 13 generations and after meeting the owner and his daughter (who incidentally had recently done a vintage in Margaret River) we toured the massive underground cellar and drank barrel samples while eating pork and rabbit rillette on home made bread. I bought a bottle of his best Cru from the 2009 vintage. I drank it about 18 months later with friends and it while I've never found rillette like that again the wine was amazing.

I only bought one other bottle home, a Philipp Kuhn Manonegra (Pfalz - blaufrankish/cab sauv blend), a superb bottle of which I shared at dinner in Heidelberg on my 40th. This two has been drunk and was still very good.

Hard to put a price on memories like that...

Realistically I think your chances of success within the criteria you have set are pretty low. I have been in Paris 4 times in the last 6 years and have only bought 2 bottles to bring back (a bottle each of 2001 Chateau Yquem and 2005 Petrus in 2014 when the $A was stronger and I successfully used the detaxe procedures – see below). I bought them to drink but its comforting to know that I (or my estate) will get at least money back if they ever have to go to auction.

Most traditional proprietor run shops have an active local client list for which anything rare or limited (what you describe as classic wines) is reserved. These wines don’t make the shelves but you will occasionally see grey market stock in the larger retailers at inflated prices. For example in 2012 I went to Les Caves Auge in Boulevard Haussmann and coincidentally there was a delivery of about 20 cases of various Raveneau including grand crus sitting on the footpath. I went back with a Australian friend resident in Paris who speaks fluent French and the then voluble but unhelpful owner dismissed the enquiry she made with a comment that he couldn’t satisfy his existing customers, let alone her friend from the other end of the world (me) that he had never seen before! Probably fair enough but the message wasn’t delivered with much grace. Two years later, in 2014 you could buy a 2008 Raveneau Clos at Lavinia but you would have to shell out 565 euros.

I simply don’t agree with the comments that anything rare or limited will as a matter of course be cheaper in France than in Australia. Remember also that wine is subject to 20 per cent TVA in France so you will incur this cost in your purchase unless you go through the bureaucratic rigmarole for detaxe. Larger stores such as Lavinia, Galeries Lafayette or Bon Marche that have a regular tourist clientele will have an alliance with a tax refund provider to allow detaxe purchases. Unlike our TRS, the refund is provided by a private company that takes a commission so if you satisfy the rules (study them closely if you intend the utilise the service) you will get a refund about 6 weeks later that is roughly 12 per cent of the purchase price.

As to some suggestions made by others, to my knowledge you will not find Sylvain Cathiard retail in Paris as he sells mostly to the export market. My interest in mostly but not exclusively in Burgundy and my experience has been that even if you find a bottle of a sought after Burgundian maker such as Rousseau, Roumier, Fourrier or Cathiard in red or Coche-Dury in white at Paris retail it will most likely be grey market stock and priced up. It’s rather amusing to see grey market bottles of DRC sold into the grey market by private clients with the bottle number scratched out so they can’t be tracked. Similarly, Paris stores specialise virtually exclusively in French wine as the French tend to be very parochial when it comes to wine so while you may find a token barolo or barbaresco at Lavinia in my experience that’s about it for any decent Italian wine.

Lavinia is worth a visit but as the prices for anything rare or limited are not cheap, time your visit to have lunch at the winebar upstairs which is very civilised. I tried only the by the glass selection but I seem to recall that you can drink any bottle that you have bought downstairs at no or minimal extra charge.

Sigmamupi. Thanks. That kind of specific, informed information is very useful. I wouldn't just buy this or that as all the hassles of buying and transporting just isn't worth the hassle if I can buy it in Australia fr a similar price and would lose money if I didn't like it and decided to off offload it onto the auction market. Even if some people seem to misunderstand me or even think that I'm being dishonest and am just a flipper.

swirler wrote:Sigmamupi. Thanks. That kind of specific, informed information is very useful. I wouldn't just buy this or that as all the hassles of buying and transporting just isn't worth the hassle if I can buy it in Australia fr a similar price and would lose money if I didn't like it and decided to off offload it onto the auction market. Even if some people seem to misunderstand me or even think that I'm being dishonest and am just a flipper.

Wow, that says it all. A possible enjoyable experience transformed into a pedestrian business enterprise. Sorry I bothered.

Mahmoud.

Mahmoud. You misunderstood me. I just mean why buy it overseas if it's cheaper in Australia and I would only sell if I didn't like it. Selling is just an insurance policy.

The wasn't for you!

For specific wine shops, David Crossley posted this on wine pages (or go to the full article on his blog http://www.wideworldofwine.co )

I wrote a piece on my blog a year ago or thereabouts (May 2015, "From Paris to Kathmandu") on a trip to Paris, which included some wine shops. I recommend La Verre Volé (not the eatery by the Canal St-Martin but the wine shop on rue Oberkampf, number 38 I think). Just what you want in just the right area. Very close to the very good (and currently hip) restaurant, Pierre Sang. Smaller, but still good for natural wines is the bar/shop, Septime La Cave (3 rue Basfroi) which is a little further away. La Buvette de Camille (67 rue Saint-Maur) is a simple diner which sells some good natural wines, though Camille wasn't exactly chummy with me - probably being over fifty and wearing a jacket made me stand out from her usual clientelle of young hipsters...like Dave Stenton...). A great restaurant near to Verre Volé/Pierre Sang is Le Villaret. More classical bistro than Pierre Sang (modern bar-eating), it has an amazing wine list, usually masses of DRC, and good S. Rhones especially, plus Bandol (I recall great older Tempier once). Just a street away but look it up as I've lost it in my head for now...argh rue Ternaux??? (stayed in a flat there once). Le Villaret is really well known to Parisians, often winning best bistro in Paris, but few Brits I know have heard of it. Claude has! He lives near there.

Another poster Scott Friar posted this list

Caves Augé - 116 blvd Haussmann, 75008
La Cave des Papilles - 35 rue Daguerre, 75014
Le Vin au Vert - 70 rue de Dunkerque, 75009
Lavinia - various locations
Le Buclier de Bacchus (decent grub too) - 18 Rue Saint-Lazare, 75009
Ame et Esprit du Vin - 59 Rue de Maubeuge, 75009

A short walk down the hill is a street called Rue Des Martyrs, a great food street; fishmonger, greengrocers, butchers, bakers, patissiers, chocolatiers, restaurants, cafes, bars, wine shops etc. Added bonus, all open on Sundays.

Will also plug a favourite restaurant of mine nearby on Rue St Georges, Le Muselet. Excellent value, pretty serious French/Japanese cooking and a nearly all grower champagne wine list.

Sigmamupi wrote:R
Two years later, in 2014 you could buy a 2008 Raveneau Clos at Lavinia but you would have to shell out 565 euros.
ge.

insane
I wonder if the 2014s will be those crazy prices

Ian, thanks for that. Lots of options there. That'll keep me busy!

swirler wrote:Cheers everyone!

Dave and Rocky, thanks for being specific (very from Rocky - was that tongue in cheek?) Why those wines in particular?

Mark, never heard of foire aux vins. A quick Google didn't really help. Please could you explain? Thanks.

Another way of looking at this question is which wines are most overpriced in Australia in the auction market as well as retail.

As this is for overseas retailers I assume it'll be OK to post the link.
http://m.larvf.com/,vins-calendrier-foi ... 359445.asp

Mark. Great. Thanks!

swirler wrote:Mahmoud. You misunderstood me. I just mean why buy it overseas if it's cheaper in Australia and I would only sell if I didn't like it. Selling is just an insurance policy.

The wasn't for you!

So why are you trying to MAXIMIZE your auctions profits then? Why should that have any influence on what wine you'd want to buy to drink? It should be sufficient enough for you to just get back whatever you paid for it if you didn't like it...but that isn't your goal...

You can bring back 6 wines from another country where you can get things not only cheaper but stuff you can't find in Australia...and yet you're looking at buying MULTIPLES when your allocation is already tiny and your main concern seems to be % gain at auction.

Just say you want to resell...otherwise wouldn't your main concerns be trying something you might ENJOY that maybe you can't find in Australia or might be cost prohibitive in Australia? Wouldn't you try to find as many different wines as possible?

Maybe you've just worded this whole thing incredibly poorly..or maybe you haven't..