The Auswine Forum

Pennies doesn't get a lot of love on the board here but whenever I see the break down of people's cellars it is often better represented than the back chat and general abuse of their pricing policies might suggest.

I thought I would post a topic for people to gather together impressions of the latest wines as they get to try them from the launch tomorrow and other general banter about the 2015 release...

Suggested topics of debate/outrage:
1) how did they make a Grange in 2011, and how do they justify the price
2) how can you possible comprehend a jump in the Bin 707 RRP by 42.8% from $350 last year to $500 this year
3) who buys Bin 407 (since everyone here seems to hate it with a passion... I don't own any and so have no strong views! except to say I don't own any.... )
4) how much is the 2012 St Henri going for/should it be going for and are we going to see the massive surge in demand of the 2010 where they claimed "its running out!"

Suggested topics of debate/outrage:

1) how did they make a Grange in 2011, and how do they justify the price
They grabbed the best fruit possible, and probably fairly OK fruit given their clout and the pressure on their grape growers to keep up standards any which way but lose. Price? Because it's Grange, and it's iconic for so many (mostly older) Aussie collectors, many of whom think nothing of buying a case or two every release and accept that higher price = higher demand and/or status.

2) how can you possible comprehend a jump in the Bin 707 RRP by 42.8% from $350 last year to $500 this year
Because their research shows that what the buying market will bear. Also see #3

3) who buys Bin 407 (since everyone here seems to hate it with a passion... I don't own any and so have no strong views! except to say I don't own any.... )
I've seen plenty of it going out the doors at my local Dans. Some buying demographics prefer Cabernet, and there is a definitely a market for Baby 707.

4) how much is the 2012 St Henri going for/should it be going for and are we going to see the massive surge in demand of the 2010 where they claimed "its running out!"
I hate to think, I've seen around the 85-95 mark. Yes, they'll claim stocks are low, but you will be able to find it if you really want it for quite a while, albeit not below $100 I suspect.

All IMHO of course...

Sorry to change the subject slightly but with St Henri at $85 & 389 at $73 as of this morning I am out. I said it before but bought a couple of sneaky st Henris - not this year. 407 at $73 "their dreamin".

A couple of comparison wines I buy - Rockford basket press $61, Wendourees $45-55, noon $29, Marius $30-40. Mmmmm

I'm out for the same reasons. Unless the wines get outstanding reviews(st heri and 389) Or the prices drop by a third that is.

Sam, Tim, Wiggum and Rens...over my short time on Auswine the 4 of you make a great deal of sense, and have the tolerance not to drop a rant nearly as often as I do.

Ahh Penfolds the LV, D&C, Rolex....whatever of the wine world.
Name says a lot for a lot of people...often means bullshit to me...but what is far more important and dare I say it for 99+% of the punters here, is substance.

Penfolds price at what the market will bear and sorry to report that I am not on the roof of the building I work in here in the Adelaide CBD, to see the lemmings lining up at Magill today for an '11

For me, despite the claims of having a zillion acres and a million growers to choose from, there is something about silk purses and sows ears.

If I do a quick comparison between name and substance here is what I come up with...
Bin 128...Wynns Shiraz, Seppelts Chalambar...50-65% cheaper
Bin 28...actually not a bad wine, but there are wines St Hallett Blackwell, MT Langhi Cliff edge, Clonkilla Hilltops
Bin 407..Wynns BL at a half to a third the price, and 20 other wines I can think of in Coonawarra or Margaret River
St Henri...all the usual suspects, St Peters, BP, Old Block, RSW...there are dozens that are cheaper
Bin 389...went to the great Aussie Red tasting (Shiraz and Cab with Tyson S. and Matthew Jukes last month) and there 25 wines ahead of this one...Lake Breeze Benoota head and shoulders above 389...and about $18 at my local

Bin 707, don't get me started, the manure is so thick here that not even a pair of Wellingtons will save me...isn't CPI about 3%..not 42%!
Can't comment on Grange other than a bottle should be given away with every 6 pack of any other wine purchased.
Just softening the public up for next year when Mr Clarke says..'right a grand should do'.

In terms of 2012 St Henri, the chains are currently sitting at about a dollar away from what I paid through a third party...

Happy hunting everyone
Cheers
Craig

phillisc wrote: what is far more important and dare I say it for 99+% of the punters here, is substance.

Penfolds price at what the market will bear and sorry to report that I am not on the roof of the building I work in here in the Adelaide CBD, to see the lemmings lining up at Magill today for an '11

Substance is of course subjective, but I never understand people paying good money for high end wines from weaker vintages, especially when in Oz we get so many good years. (For example) as much as I love Rockford Basket Press and St Henri, I don't understand the rush to buy the 2011s, especially as that vintage is bookended by 2 cracking years. The same with 2000, 2003, 2007 etc. But at the end of the day, their business is not really mine I guess.

I think you're right with your lemmings comment... people have bought into a concept and a label rather than contents if they are buying the 2011 Grange at the asking price. A six-pack of the 2012 St Henri will provide infinitely superior drinking at 2/3 of the price (based on the learned opinions of those who have tasted both). Alternatively, if they must have Grange, buy the 2010 or wait till next year.

I buy Penfolds wine - they unquestionably make some superb stuff. Indeed, I just grabbed a 6-pack of St Henri. But I'm happy to sit out the weaker years........

Are there any thoughts of how the 2013 389 compares to the 2010 and 2012?

Luckily enough I've tasted this year's releases and for what it's worth here are my thoughts.. Unfortunately I don't have my tasting notes at hand today but here's what I remember.

The winemaker's comments at the time were that the 2013 wines were a lot like some of the Penfolds wines from yesteryears structurally.

The 2013 Bin 389 is absolutely quintessential Penfolds IMO. If you're a Bin 389 fan, I don't think there's any doubt you'll like this one and it will do exactly what 389 does when you leave it in the back of the cellar for a couple of decades.

2013 Magill Estate was the pick of the bunch for me this year, when often it's not in my top list. The stars have aligned over Penfolds Road and it's all come together perfectly.

The words that came to mind immediately when I tasted the 2012 St Henri were 'high class hooker'. Probably not Penfolds approved, but there you are:-) Voluptuous, seductive and well dressed. If you choose to spend the money, you'll be guaranteed of a good time.

The 2011 Grange is not the 2010 to state the bleeding obvious but it shouldn't be discounted (even thought it will:-)). I think it will grow into a graceful edition that will still be unmistakably Grange. I'm not going to enter into the value for money discussion as I think it's an incomplete and unbalanced argument.

There's always a bit of an unexpected surprise in the line up and for me this year it was the 2013 Bin 2 Shiraz Mataro. More savoury and when it grows up is going to be quite an interesting one.

Amusing to See Dans have put a 2 bottle limit per customer on the 2011 Grange

Ticks for:
Grange
RWT
St Henri
389

Crosses for:
28
407

The words that came to mind immediately when I tasted the 2012 St Henri were 'high class hooker'. Probably not Penfolds approved, but there you are:-) Voluptuous, seductive and well dressed. If you choose to spend the money, you'll be guaranteed of a good time.

Moira, that is gold
Yes picked up a case of these.

I very much agree with your thoughts around Magill.
I got a few of the 2012 as I have always thought that this wine is the star...the 1986 was our wedding wine...very happy guests.

Cheers
Craig

Thanks to everyone for their notes and impressions. On previous years I have been able to find a major store that were tasting a selection from the release, however this year no such luck. As a result from everones notes bought a few of the St Henri. It is also noted that despite sceptism TWE did not increase pricing despite the previous hype of the 2010 St Henri, and new 2012. I paid around $73 for the current release, which was a couple of dollars less than what I paid for the 2010 on release.

That pricing is utterly bizarre. I can only think it is aimed at people who are not really into wine but have a fair bit of surplus cash. (conveniently released at tax return time)

$100 a bottle gets you so many better Australian and imported wines that Pennies are offering, no matter which way you look at it.
Grange 2011 will be crap, and do not fear, every last (smart) investor will stay well away. You will be able to buy it cheaper in 5 years, for sure. So if you got married or had a kid in 2011, buy it in 2020.

Penfold's 707 is an excellent wine, perhaps my favourite Aussie standard-offering Cabernet. But $500 are they kidding???
I purchased 2014 Mouton for $300. Holy crap Batman, who would buy that????? That is more expensive, even in Australia that virtually every non-FG left bank and almost all Right bank Bordeaux. Eglise Clinet 09 and 10 were cheaper than that in Australia, and trust me, both are light years above any single vintage of 707 ever made.

Anyway, there is a sucker born every second, and I guess Pennies are counting on that continuing.

It seems to me that the St Henri going around $73-75 in the initial release is the relative bargain then... no real change since 2010 and much lower inflation over the last 30yrs...

I am mulling up a mixed six of 389 and St Henri, maybe one RWT... well see.

Has anyone tried the Yattarna chardonnay or even seen it for sale? I have looked in my favourite retailers that I frequent and havn't been able to find any or get any idea of the price.

tonym wrote:Has anyone tried the Yattarna chardonnay or even seen it for sale? I have looked in my favourite retailers that I frequent and havn't been able to find any or get any idea of the price.

Yattarna appears to be very elusive, it has been on my bucket list wines. Unable to source it in Sydney. It wasn't until I was able to travel to Melbourne for work before I was able to source a bottle for around $160 from a speciality wine store. Still sitting in the cellar, not certain whether it is worth the money.

Phil H wrote:for around $160 from a speciality wine store

Wow Struggling hard to bite my tongue, lest it roll out and hit the floor.

Wow. That's Premier to lesser-producer's Grand Cru white burg territory there... maybe they feel that if Giaconda can do it then so can they, but surely Giaconda has a far better track record?

Anyways... Wow (did I say that before?)

odyssey wrote:

Phil H wrote:for around $160 from a speciality wine store

Wow Struggling hard to bite my tongue, lest it roll out and hit the floor.

It's not very often I find myself agreeing with felixp's thoughts on a matter, and even when I do I somehow still feel very disagreeable about it, but ... Wow. That's Premier to lesser-producer's Grand Cru white burg territory there... Even Giaconda, which arguably has a far better track record than Yattarna IMHO.

Wow (did I say that before?)

Agree - fortunately I was on travell allowance - all spent on the wine so it did not cost anything(thats my justification)

Phil H wrote:Agree - fortunately I was on travell allowance - all spent on the wine so it did not cost anything(thats my justification)

Oh in that case, nice work.

I went to pick up some St Henri at a main chain store that I had pre-ordered, and while there they opened a 389, 28, and 407. I had a taste of the 389 and the 28. Based upon the tasting I bought some of the 389. It was much more approachable than I was expecting, especially considering the bottle had just been opened. I will probably buy some more of it. The 28 was okay but I think there are better options at that price point. The 28 was sub $30 and the 407 and 389 were identical price and both sub $60. I don't know why anyone would pay the price for the 407 but each to their own. The 407 had hardly moved (3 bottles sold) while the 389, St Henri and RWT were selling much quicker.

I don't even bother any more.......like many Penfolds is over represented in my cellar based on many years of purchases when I still regarded them as good value however my spend is elsewhere these days and their relative proportion is slowly dwindling.

Talk about putting lipstick on the proverbial... check out this quote from Coles/Vintage Cellars/"Ultimo wine centre":

"There has been a lot of discussion about the 2011 Grange, mainly focussed around how it doesn't compare to the 2010. The 2011, I believe, is destined to become somewhat of a collectors item, due to the much smaller quantity produced, as well as the fact that it is only the sixth vintage to be 100% Shiraz. While not showing as well as the 2010, it will only be 10-15 years down the track where these wines truly show their quality. In my opinion, some are dismissing the expected life span of the 2011 due to the softness and approachability in its youth. Will the 2011 match the lofty heights of the 2008? I don't believe so. Is it still one of Australia's finest reds out of an extremely tough vintage? Absolutely, especially keeping in mind that a 2011 Hill of Grace was not
made."

So... never mind the quality, feel the lack of width? And anyway you can't buy any HoG (because they actually don't make that in a good year) so what else are you going to collect?? Well at least it is blatant who they think the customers are - trophy hunters, not drinkers.

sjw_11 wrote:Talk about putting lipstick on the proverbial... check out this quote from Coles/Vintage Cellars/"Ultimo wine centre"

I agree with your comments but as a matter of record, Vintage Cellars Ultimo (formerly Ultimo Wine Centre) closed earlier this year. Another episode in the long history of Wesfarmers/Woolworths buying independents and then closing them because they don't understand the fine wine market.

Sigmamupi wrote:

sjw_11 wrote:Talk about putting lipstick on the proverbial... check out this quote from Coles/Vintage Cellars/"Ultimo wine centre"

I agree with your comments but as a matter of record, Vintage Cellars Ultimo (formerly Ultimo Wine Centre) closed earlier this year. Another episode in the long history of Wesfarmers/Woolworths buying independents and then closing them because they don't understand the fine wine market.

The email in question still comes from "Vintage Cellars Ultimo" <ultimo@vintagecellars.com.au>(even though its not anymore) and is to the old Ultimo mailing list... an example of the giant retail chain cloaking its crass commercialism in spruiking the product as having come from the "wine experts" at Ultimo rather than from the battleship galactica on Toorak road....

odyssey wrote:It's not very often I find myself agreeing with felixp's thoughts on a matter, and even when I do I somehow still feel very disagreeable about it, but ... Wow .......Wow (did I say that before?)

Shocking manners. You should be ashamed of yourself for that rude, personal attack on a regular contributor to this board. Can't believe everyone else stayed quiet about this.

Back on topic.

My take (worst to best):
407 the worst wine of the bunch
28 ok
389 better
150 quite nice
St Henri reasonable, but shows worrying signs of development. I wouldn't touch it.
Daylight
RWT Smashable and streets ahead of the above
Grange quite miraculous given the region/vintage. Obviously not as good as the excellent 2010, but deservedly wears the Grange label.

I was not aware that regularity of posting precluded disagreement.

EDIT: There. I no longer disagree nor feel disagreeable.

Now, about that tongue biting...

What I always find interesting is the ability to buy well cellared earlier great vintages of Pennies at prices near current vintage RRP. Like 1998 St Henri with good provenance for around $90 at auction or a 1998 Wynns JR for the same price while current release is around $140. I know which I'd prefer to buy although the older wines are under cork and did open 2 corked wines this week.

Carl

Just attended my local dans for a taste. Approached the tasting area, all the bins out, open and ready go. No staff serving - hesitated for a minute looked around and poured my own. Decent serve I might add. 389 to start and then 407. 389 pretty good. 407 good as well - well structured almost austere (just not sure about VFM). By the time I went back staff in attendance and asked if any St Henri open. No good, even for those who ask.

Better tasting than a Wynns I had at another Dans a year or do ago when they served me a thimble sized volume in a 50ml plastic cup. I was disgusted and left.

By comparison I am drinking a half bot of the Rockford 13 Cab at home. It compares well with the pennies.

Grabbed 6 x 389 and a single road test bottle of 28 for $55 and $25 per bottle respectively. To me, that pricing isn't too far off the mark. RRPs are another story altogether.

The st henri at 70 ish was tempting but I'll hold fire I think.

My last purchase (barring a 2008 Koonunga Hill '76, which was actually ok value) was 2004 vintage St Henri & Bin 389.

No value these days