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Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:31 am
by pc79
Hi All,
I've been given the opportunity to assist in setting up a wine list for a new small bar in Sydney.
I thought I'd throw it out to you all in relation to what you would feel as being compulsory varietals. I would imagine that we'd be looking to go for more a local feel supporting smaller wineries with a broad range of difference in terroir. eg hunter sem, vic/wa chardy, tassie/vic pinot, sa/wa cab, sa/nsw shiraz, nz sav b, wa semsavb, and a couple of funkier varietals. Something that is appealing to everyone, at a reasonable price point. i.e starting at around $30 wine list px - $100. Most patrons will likely be just casual drinkers catching up with friends.
Sparkles
Whites
Sem/Chard/SB/Pinot Gris
Lighter Reds
Pinot/Sangio/Nebb
Reds
Cab/Shiraz/blends/others
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:49 am
by swirler
Barossa shiraz
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:04 pm
by trufflequeen
Kudos to you in aiming for an entry point in the $30s. It's something we still see regularly in Adelaide, but seems to be getting rarer and rarer in the eastern states!
EDIT: Some SA-centric suggestions:
From the Barossa - Tscharke Girl Talk Savagnin to contract with your Hunter Semillons, a red from Spinifex or Adelina (a nice dusty grenache or SGM), maybe even a straight mataro?
Possibly some interesting Adelaide Hills offerings - Ochota Barrels, maybe an Ashton Hills sparkling salmon brut, Shaw and Smith
Clare Valley doesn't feature enough in my opinion - a crisp Clare riesling is a must on any bar list!
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:58 pm
by pc79
Ha - thanks Swirler.
Trufflequeen - $30 is an easy sell on a wine list, but the by glass price will be around $7 which is on the cheap side.
Looks as though most wines will be around $45/bottle, 10-14/glass.
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:13 pm
by catchnrelease
Ones that come to mind, although not sure how consistent the quality would be in future vintages.
2013 Zeppelin Big Bertha/Estate Shiraz
2013 Evans & Tate Breathing Space Cab
2014 Kilikanoon Rieslings (their Mort's Reserve would be a good top end Rizza)
2013/2014 Massena Primitivo, Saperavi and Midnight Run
2014 Hunter Valley Verdelho's (Allandale, Polin & Polin are good)
2014 Meerea Park Shiraz and Semillons
2014 Spy Valley Sauv Blanc
2013? Juniper Crossing Tempranillo
2011 Juniper Estate Cab (higher end of the list)
2014 Head Red GSM
Current/any vintage of Head The Blonde
2013 Mandoleto Nero d'Avola
2014 Wickhams Road Pinots (if they're still around?)
2012 Kilikanoon Blocks Road Cab
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:35 pm
by winetastic
Crowd pleasers:
Mount Pleasant Elizabeth Semillon
Head Wines 'Head Red' GSM and 'The Blonde' Shiraz
Tahbilk Cabernet Sauvignon and Marsanne
Blue Poles Allouran
Vasse Felix Cabernet Sauvignon
I take it you want some Nebbiolo on there for us wine wankers? These might sneak in under $100 wine list prices...
Giovanni Rosso Langhe Nebbiolo
Malvira Langhe Nebbiolo
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:43 pm
by Krusty
I assume you will have a page dedicated to Jura, Paul ?
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:24 pm
by rens
Bubbles:
Chandon Brut, NV
Veuve Clicquot Brut, NV
Arras Brute Elite or Blanc de Blancs
White:
Kumeu River ‘Village’ Chardonnay (what ever the current vintage is)
Leeuwin Estate “Art Series†Riesling
Brokenwood Semillon
Totara Sauvignon Blanc (Kiwi Sav, I know, but people do drink this shit)
Rose:
Spinifex Grenache blend
Reds:
Kooyong ‘Massale’ Pinot Noir
Running With Bulls Tempranillo
Cirillo the Vincent
Torbreck ‘Woodcutters’ Shiraz
Veritas “Bull’s Blood†Shiraz Mataro
Thorn Clark ‘Sandpiper’ Cabernet Sauvignon
Vasse Felix Cabernet Sauvignon
Fortifieds:
Galway Pipe Port
Penfolds Grandfather Port
That's a start. Not sure how much you want on the list.
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:09 pm
by pc79
Krusty wrote:I assume you will have a page dedicated to Jura, Paul ?
Haha - first cab OFF the list.
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:24 pm
by pc79
Doing well folks. Got many of the suggestions already on the list - here's a sampler:
Sparkling
Innocent Bystander Moscato Yarra Valley, VIC
Domaine Chandon Brut Multiregion
Arras Bay of Fires, TAS
Veuve Cliquot/French NV Reims, France
Whites
2014 Tulloch Verdehlo Hunter Valley, NSW
2014 Spy Valley Sauvignon Blanc Marlborough, NZ
2014 Tamar Ridge Pinot Gris Launceston, TAS
2014 Kilikanoon Morts Block Riesling Clare Valley, SA
2013 Howard Park Semillon Sav Blanc Margaret River, WA
2014 Hoddles Creek Chardonnay Yarra Valley, VIC
2015 Gundog Wild Semillon Hunter Valley, NSW
2014 Ravensworth Seven Months Canberra, ACT
2012 Voyager Estate Chardonnay Margaret River, WA
Reds:
Lighter Reds
2013 Maretti Langhe Rosso Piemonte, Italy
2014 Gundog Estate Rose Canberra, NSW
2014 Stoney Rise Pinot Noir Launceston, TAS
2014 SC Pannell Tempranillo McLaren Vale, SA
2014 Ravensworth Sangiovese Canberra, ACT
2014 Freeman Nebbiolo Hilltops, NSW
2013 Williams Crossing Pinot Noir Yarra Valley, VIC
2014 Ochota Barrels 'The Fugazi' Grenache McLaren Vale, SA
Shiraz
2013 Mike Press Shiraz Adelaide Hills, SA
2013 Mt Langi Cliff Edge Grampians, VIC
2014 Woods Crampton Shiraz Barossa Valley, SA
2013 Oliver's Tarange Shiraz McLaren Vale, SA
2014 Gundog Estate Hunters Shiraz Hunter Valley, NSW
2013 Clonakilla O’Riada Canberra, ACT
2013 Head Blonde Shiraz Barossa Valley, SA
Cabernet Sauvignon
2013 Moppity Lock & Key Cabernet Hilltops, NSW
2012 Hillcrest Village Cabernet Yarra Valley, VIC
2012 Majella Cabernet Coonawarra, SA
2012 Vasse Felix Cabernet Margaret River
2012 Rockford Rifle Range Cabernet Barossa, SA
Other Reds
2014 Head Red GSM Barossa Valley, SA
2012 SC Pannell Tempranillo Touriga McLaren Vale, SA
2011 Blue Poles Allouran Margaret River, WA
2012 Flametree Cabernet Merlot Margaret River, WA
2014 Brash Higgins NDV McLaren Vale, SA
Something Special
2012 Shaw & Smith M3 Chardonnay Adelaide Hills, SA
2014 Tyrrells Vat 1 Semillon Hunter Valley, NSW
2012 SC Pannell Grenache McLaren Vale, SA
2012 Juniper Estate Cabernet Margaret River, WA
2012 Rockford Basket Press Shiraz Barossa Valley, SA
2012 By Farr Sangreal Pinot Noir Geelong, VIC
2012 Wirra Wirra RSW Shiraz McLaren Vale, SA
From the Cellar
Aged Releases:
TBC
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:27 pm
by rens
Are you able to get your hands on enough Basket Press to keep a wine list going?
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:43 pm
by pc79
rens wrote:Are you able to get your hands on enough Basket Press to keep a wine list going?
Maybe - this is all a prototype/hypothetical/hands in the air version 1.
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:36 pm
by Polymer
Just my few cents..
If I'm going to sell Semillon, it will need to have a min of 5 years of bottle age unless it is showing nice development young - So not Vat 1
.
Sauvignon Blanc and Pinot Gris are both really popular...I'd probably pick a typical example and then a not so typical example that might launch their interest in other wines. Not so typical would be aged in oak, time on lees, some extended skin contact or something in that vein.
I think the list shows pretty good diversity in styles and producers...
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:00 pm
by VINH NGUYEN
Where's the place at mate? And when does it open? Can i byo the occasional special bottle as well?
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:26 pm
by catchnrelease
Mount Riley from NZ make a good Gewurz and Gris as well.
Not sure about getting enough of some of those wines, especially stuff like Brash Higgins, Rockford, Ochota Barrels etc. But hey one can dream!
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:56 pm
by Sean
deleted
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:08 am
by TiggerK
Looking good Paul, but as others mentioned, the final list will need to take ongoing availability into account, and of course you'll need the ability to reprint the list with new vintages easily etc. Clipboard/laminated paper would keep that cost low. Or a trendy blackboard. A smaller primary list, with a 'sommelier' list of the rarities and higher priced wines might be worth looking at too, bit more margin opportunity there too FWIW. But I suspect you're all over this already.
P.S Great suggestions everyone!
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:33 am
by pc79
Thanks all for your suggestions. A great synopsis Sean and will certainly look into those. I hear you on the Rose front. Also need to be a bit wary of going too boutique/intimidatory for people who want their recognisable Taylors/Brown Brothers/Koonunga Hills etc. But want to make it intersting, afforadable and educational enough for others.
Accessing consistent availability is certainly a consideration and something that will be looked at.
The list will be quite malleable and will change with the seasons. Noone wants to be drinking a 2014 Vat 1 on the coldest day in July, huh Kev? Nor a brutish shiraz in 40degrees, Burges?
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:41 am
by mjs
Quite predictably, I would like to see a bit more Coonawarra on the list. May not be "flavour of the month", but its QPR heavy. Suggestions in no particular order:
2012/2013 Bowen Estate Cabernet
2013 Wynns BL Shiraz
2012 Balnaves Cabernet
2013 Balnaves The Blend
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:33 pm
by Bobthebuilder
Sean wrote:Just to add a few more suggestions. Not necessarily varietals, some of these are blends...
white
Innocent Bystander Pinot Gris (Yarra Valley/King Valley) - Handpicked, whole bunch pressed, 80% wild yeast, half in the tank and half gets older French oak.
Phaedrus Pinot Gris (Mornington Peninsula) - the current vintage will be good. But ring the winery and try to get an older vintage with 4 or 5 years on it.
Yabby Lake Pinot Gris (Mornington Peninsula) - Single vineyard block and gets some oak barrel influence.
MVR blends - d'Arenberg The Hermit Crab or Tahbilk's The Tower are probably far too commercial for a wine bar. But gee the bottle disappears quick round a table. Alternatively, Elgee Park at Mornington Peninsula and Heathcote Winery make a nice barrel matured viognier.
Toolangi, Giant Steps and Oakridge Chardonnay (Yarra Valley) - there are a few different ones depending on price.
Margaret River chardonnay - eg. Deep Woods Estate. Got a taste for MR chardonnay right now.
rose
Read somewhere that rose is the biggest seller in France this year. I would like to see a number of roses on a wine bar list too. One or two Australian roses would be nice, especially those with more of a savoury Provencal style (rather than bright red and lolly/red fruited).
eg. Medhurst Rose (Yarra Valley)
pinot noir
Little Yering (Yarra Valley) - the 2013 vintage has a nice mix of dark cherry and forest floor. Really easy to like budget-priced pinot.
Caledonia Australis (Leongatha in Gippsland, Vic) - cherry, herbs, earth and tangy acidity.
Fowles Wine Are You Game? (Strathbogies) - the 2013 vintage has a bit of zinfandel in it.
Drinking a bit of pinot lately with five years on it, ie. 2010 vintage. Kooyong Massale, McCrae Mist, Diamond Valley, Baillieu Vineyard and Hoddles Creek are all good. You would obviously only list the wine while you have that vintage. But an older pinot would be nice.
Seville Estate (Yarra Valley) - The Barber is a pretty good second label. Otherwise the estate label pinot noir or shiraz.
Serrat (Yarra Valley) - Tom Carson's own vineyard. The pinot is definitely worth looking for. OK it is hard to find sometimes. Otherwise any of his wines from Yabby Lake.
other reds
De Bortoli La Boheme Act Four Syrah Gamay (Yarra Valley) - a mix of whole bunch and whole berry, foot-stomped, natural ferment, matured in big casks. Dark fruits, undergrowth and slightly savoury.
Pizzini Sangiovese Shiraz (King Valley) - the 2013 is a bit fresher and fruitier than the 2012. But I really liked the 2012 and both go very nicely with food. They have a number of sangiovese now. The Rosetta is their sangiovese rose, the Sangiovese Shiraz blend, the Nonna Gisella Sangiovese, the Pietra Rossa Sangiovese (a new name for their standard label sangio), the Forza Di Ferro Sangiovese (focusing on their iron rich soils and available in 2016) and the Rubacuori Sangiovese, which is a big, tannic sangio released with age on it.
Grant Burge Filsell Shiraz (Barossa Valley) - Just how good are the 2008, 2010 and 2012? Don't put too big a margin on it and they will be settling in and ordering a second bottle. Why wouldn't you have some really good Barossa shiraz names on your wine list even if they are well known?
Red Edge (Heathcote) - A few years ago, Peter Dredge made a Tempranillo/Monastrell blend and a Mataro, the latter from a few barrels he liked enough not to put it into a blend. Really just an example of why you could find out what else these guys are making, not just the obvious stuff like (in this case) a Heathcote shiraz.
Cirillo The Vincent Grenache (Barossa Valley) - Great aromatics and fruit. Nice silky/velvety texture. This is one to get with an extra year or two on it. Just seems to add a bit of depth to it.
Quealy Rageous (Mornington Peninsula) - A blend of sangiovese, shiraz and pinot noir. Interesting/exotic tasting wine and drinks beautifully.
nice input sean
sorry but it needs to be preserved!
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:50 pm
by rossmckay
Every good wine list should have a rough split of quality established wines and new and on-trend wines. The actual split depends on the clientele (and restaurant and location to a lesser extent) but it should have both.
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:10 pm
by Sean
deleted
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:48 pm
by TiggerK
Perhaps a descriptor list for some or all wines similar to a trendy food menu to guide Joe and Nancy Bloggs?
********* Shiraz - Spicy, decadent, red fruits, mocha
********* Cabernet - Blackberry, cherry, earth, cedar
etc??
P.S Sean, each to their own, really good to have you back!!
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:10 pm
by felixp
rossmckay wrote:Every good wine list should have a rough split of quality established wines and new and on-trend wines. The actual split depends on the clientele (and restaurant and location to a lesser extent) but it should have both.
Precisely, dear Lord, please deliver us, Joe Public, from the evil hands of the trendy sommelier.
Please see the superb Huon Hooke article in "Good Food" August 19th 2014.
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:38 pm
by Polymer
Figures you'd like that Huon Hooke article..
I don't know if you've actually seen the wine lists in question but Rockpools is online....You tell me if that is a good wine list or just "too trendy"....I'd probably argue it isn't trendy enough..
I don't know if I really care about places have 15 vintages of a single wine, but they probably have quite a bit less of each than a single vintage of some easier to find wines......but apparently 500 out of 1900 wines being Australian is losing your way...Go figure..
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:54 pm
by catchnrelease
If I'm going to a restaurant/bar and ordering wine that's been marked up, I at least want it to be a more obscure/hard to find wine that I can't just grab at any bottle shop for 30% of the price.
Whether the wine is good or not is up to the establishment and whether they care about the quality of the products they're selling.
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:26 am
by felixp
my point all along in this thread has simply been this.... happy to have plenty of exotic, hard to find, unusual grape varieties, etc wines on a list, but I do not care what type of restaurant you are, in Australia, the list should include some of our classic wines so that the customer, you know, the person actually paying for the wine, has a choice if he or she wishes it. I love and would promote wines like Head and Sami Odi, what superb additions to the Aussie wine landscape, but equally, Penfolds, Wynns, Henschke, Leeuwin, Moss Wood etc etc are a huge part of our industry, and it would be a crying shame, if not a vinous crime, to ignore these producers.
Since two months ago, this thread has become a lot more interesting and relevant to me. As fate would have it, I have been given the task of creating the wine list for a high-end Melbourne restaurant, with what will be a generous budget for the de-novo wine list. Whilst we will undoubtedly employ the service/advice of the chief somm closer to the opening date, the basic set-up of the long-term wines is my responsibility. Huon Hooke, it seems, is not the only critic of the new wine list trend springing up, my discussions with several of Australia's most successful restaurant owners would suggest that such lists are, at the very least, an extremely risky financial proposition. Repeat custom keeps a restaurant alive, not wines that some sommelier "likes to drink". It would seem that many people prefer to order, and pay for, wines "they like to drink".
Remember, we people who read and write on this forum are, pretty much by definition, wine lovers, not Joe Public. And 90%+ of restaurant customers are Joe Public.
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:37 am
by Polymer
I'm not arguing against having a good mix of well known and trendy wines..I completely agree with that..
But if you look at the lists Huon Hooke is bashing...it is obvious he didn't think about what he was writing....and obvious you didn't look at the lists he was quoting either..
But if you are talking about some other lists..yeah, I'd agree..They can get a bit too trendy or narrowly focused...It is really a shame he couldn't find any to write about in his article...
Again, not disagreeing with your point..but like many other things, I'm not really sure you read the article you're referring to carefully...
Just for fun, take a look at Rockpool Bar and Grills wine list..and tell me does it lack Australian wine as HH says? Is it full of just trendy wines? Or does it actually have a pretty good mix?...I am far from Neil Perry fan..but I think their wine list is pretty good..Has a large selection of well known and trendy Australian wines..as well as a very large selection of imported wines...I'm not really sure I care that they carry 15 vintages of a specific wine..but I can also see how that happens and they're not the first, or the last restaurant to have a list like that..It is infinitely better, than say, French Laundry's wine list..which is basically a who's who of wine which took zero effort to put together...I'm not even sure it required a Somm...
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:10 pm
by felixp
I have eaten at Rockpool Sydney many times, the wine list is great, the prices rubbish. Looking forward to getting off my ass, travelling to multiple wine regions in Aus and abroad, direct importing, and smashing those prices. Already have the opportunity to direct import from some CNDP, Northern Rhone and Burgundy producers. Got another 18 months to expand that list 20-fold. It is bloody time-consuming, but great fun and a labour of love hehe. In addition, 09,10 and now 15 seems to have produced great vintages across almost all of Europe, and further opportunity seems endless.
The Neil Perry stuff up the pointy end of the plane in Qanti is superb, as good as Cathay's first class, which I rate the best. But the real plus wrt Perry for me is, i am told, his team's input into the Qanti wine list. I fly business class to and from HK-Melb like a friggin yo-yo, and I absolutely love the wines they serve, they are not expensive, but are fantastic value and compliment the food perfectly.
HH's details might be a little sketchy, but his point was beautifully made (IMO) and it appears from my research thus far that the top-of-the tree restauranteurs generally agree with him. As I said, unless you are Attica and the select few, it is all about repeat customers.
PS, Polymer, it seems that both research and leading restauranteurs strongly agree with you... multiple vintages (greater than four) of any given wine is a little pointless, all but a minuscule percentage of diners rate having multiple vintages of leading brands important. I can guarantee you we won't be carrying 20 vintages of Grange, that is senselessly tying capital up.
Re: Setting up a wine list
Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:14 am
by Polymer
Well Rockpool Bar and Grill has a great wine list..expensive..but if you look at it online, it is quite extensive with a huge Aussie selection...Is it mostly Australian? No..but 500 Australian wines is a lot...
I don't think places have multiple vintages (like 15+) in an effort to have that many vintages (although they might)..I just think in trying to source a particular wine, they can't get the quantity they want of a particular wine...but who knows, maybe they do want many different vintages....Certainly a restaurant just starting out shouldn't want to do that...as you said, just needlessly tying up capital that can be used for other stuff...
Looking forward to seeing your list when you're done....
AS far as HH's article...it was just poorly thought out..certainly he could easily have found places that fit into what he was writing about...but the fact that he didn't either means he's lazy or couldn't find enough...instead he picked poor examples of restaurants that have a massive Aussie listing...it just isn't a majority Aussie...