The Auswine Forum

NOBLEROTTERSSYDNEY - PENFOLDS PRIOR TO 2005 - 360 Bar & Dining, Sydney (4/05/2015)

Catching up on the upper echelons of Penfolds range; 2005 and prior was the filter. Eight Rotters raided the cellar; Gordon quite generously. No cork victims; relief all round.

NV Philip Shaw Edinburgh Palace Koomooloo - Australia, New South Wales, Central Ranges, Orange
{diam, 12.5%} (Glenn) Young. Fresh, clean palate of green apple. Light-bodied palate of simple applelike fruit; little evidence of autolysis or time on lees. Delicate bubbles, but a short finish and rather hollow feel to the texture leave an underwhelming impression.

1998 Penfolds Cabernet Sauvignon Bin 407 - Australia, South Australia
{cork, 13.5%} (Geoffrey) Double-decanted two hours prior. A strictly Penfolds nose; there’s not much varietal character here. Vanilla, coconut, liquorice. The palate has a real resin and pine character. But it’s earthy too. There’s no real fruit left here, just soft oak flavours. Barely present powdery tannins, medium-body I guess, but it’s not all that pleasant still. I don’t really think the wine’s too old; it’s just more evidently reflecting its fundamentally unbalanced nature. On the way to oblivion for me.

2005 Penfolds Bin 389 - Australia, South Australia
{screwcap, 14.5%} (Bruce) Decanted at table. Classic rich 389 nose. Meat, oak, red berries. Ripe shiraz. The palate is medium/full-bodied, smoothly glycerine-infused, with immensely sweet fruits of blackberry and plums. Quite youthful. But, the acidity is low and the tannins soft. Has heft on the palate, but seems to have a slippery quality from the alcohol, perhaps? There’s a raisin-like quality to the finish too. At a decade old, it doesn’t inspire me to cellar further, I must say. Where’s the dimension, the complexity? Come to that, where are the tannins? Suspect I was in a minority of one with this view, but I miss the old-fashioned, more savoury-but-still-new-world quality of the early 90s and prior vintages. Blame the screwcap?

2004 Penfolds Shiraz St. Henri - Australia, South Australia
{cork, 14.5%} (David) No decant. Plummy and ripe. Smells big, but restrained; like a V12 engine idling at 900rpm. The medium/full-bodied palate has opened up a little at a decade old; it’s balanced, with plum and blackberry flavours, medium dusty tannins, a touch of pine/oak flavour, and a polished, long-finishing texture. Made the preceding Bin 389 taste woodchippy and coarse. This was a much acclaimed vintage on release; I reckon this has got another decade at least before it reaches a peak. Should be awesome with time.

1990 Penfolds Cabernet Sauvignon Bin 707 - Australia, South Australia
{cork, 13.5%} (Gordon) Double-decanted three hours prior. Fascinating tasting of a pair of well- (but separately) cellared bottles. First up; lovely currents, with a touch of twigs, herbs, basil. Sweet old US oak. Endlessly seductive aromas. The palate is a match; impeccably balanced; aging new-world cabernet (per the nose) seasoned with a little coconut. The texture is glossy and smooth; still with medium chalky tannins and medium acidity. Endless finish. Peerlessly aging great Australian cabernet. At peak, seems possible to hold longer but that’s taking a risk.

1990 Penfolds Cabernet Sauvignon Bin 707 - Australia, South Australia
{cork, 13.5%} (Ronnie) Decanted at table. This was subtly but appreciably different to the first wine. It smelt a little clearer and more perfumed. On the palate it appeared to be slightly more tannic, which was a little odd, because this bottle was detectably cooler – 2-3C I reckon than the first. The wine shared absolutely the flavour spectrum of the first example; it was hardly different enough to call ‘contrast’. Just that little nuance. I wonder how much of the difference we identified was solely due to the temperature diference? Comparing these two bottles was like contrasting Pavarotti singing on Friday night with the same repertoire on Saturday…

1989 Penfolds Grange - Australia, South Australia
{cork, 13.5%} (Gordon) Double-decanted three hours prior. The classic liquorice, plum, sweet bubblegum aromas and flavours that this wine has been so consistent in offering over the last 15 years. Amongst the same flavours on the palate is a burnt, charcoal-like character. It’s medium-bodied, and although it tastes younger than its quarter-century of years – if without quite the depth of flavours of the surrounding bottles on Bin 707 – this was the least of the last half-dozen bottles I’ve tasted this century. Either an inferior bottle, or the first sign that this wine is leaving its peak behind. Drink now.

1994 Penfolds Cabernet Sauvignon Bin 707 - Australia, South Australia
{cork, 13.5%} (Graeme) Double-decanted three hours prior. One of the few 707s not to say South Australia on the label: it does say Mt Barker but it’s the one in Western Australia. This was not unlike the 1990 bottles, but it smelt much more strongly of coconut and vanilla, along with the underlying current fruit. Big wine on the palate; full-bodied. Medium/high dusty tannins, lowish acid. Plenty of life left here though, and very much in the house style, with meaty cassis/currant flavours. Seems maybe a touch monolithic beside the 1990; less perfectly balanced, with that coconut oak sticking out a bit. Still, to complain of that is splitting hairs; this might miss the beguiling sweetness of the ’90, but I’d drink this with pleasure any day of the week.

1999 Penfolds Cabernet Sauvignon Bin 707 - Australia, South Australia
{cork, 13.5%} (Greg) Decanted at table. Only somewhat developed; tight nose is still dominated by woody, coconutty US oak. The palate is all raisiny cabernet, but also sullen and withdrawn. Would almost certainly have benefited from a longer decant time. Full-bodied, dry, highly tannic, with medium acid. Too much tannin? Seems backward for 16 years. Still, given the pedigree I’d trust this in the cellar; keep.

2008 Nugan Estate Sémillon Botrytis Cookoothama - Australia, New South Wales, Big Rivers, Riverina
{375ml, screwcap, 11%} (Glenn) Caramel/nougat; the age hasn’t affected the primacy of the honey-tinged fruit too much; but the acidity has softened out. Nicely caramelised on the palate, although the shortish finish tends toward the hollow. OK, undemanding sweetie, but time to drink.


Great night. They don’t come much more reliable that premium Penfolds, you gotta admit.
cheers,
Graeme

thanks Graeme, great and interesting read. Bin 707 has really grown on me over the past decade, but alas I have too little of it in the cellar
as usual, Australia's worst-value wine performed poorly yet again. How Penfolds can charge $70 for 407 is a mystery, but no-where as big a mystery as the fact that people actually buy it for that price. (assuming that they do)
it is basically a third wine, in the vein of Goulee from Cos, or Petit Lion from LLC. And as such, for an Australian version, it should sell for $20, which is what it is worth IMO. I have been subject to many many bottles of the stuff at various functions over the years, and never seen a bottle worth more than a mid-80's rating.

Agree on 407. The 1990 was very nice, and I had a decent bottle of '96 once.
Otherwise it's failed to impress, consistently.
cheers,
GG

Interesting read. Thanks.
Having never tried a 407 personally how would it compare quality wise to say a Wynns Black Label or Yalumba Menzies?

felixp wrote: it is basically a third wine, in the vein of Goulee from Cos, or Petit Lion from LLC.

Other than the 1990, the aforementioned are better wines

bigtinnie wrote:Interesting read. Thanks.
Having never tried a 407 personally how would it compare quality wise to say a Wynns Black Label or Yalumba Menzies?

only my opinion, of course, but both those are much better year in and year out.
I reckon the 2012 Black Label is the best since the 1990.

Blame the screwcap?

Hmmmm….

I think there are going to be many disappointments.

felixp wrote:

bigtinnie wrote:Interesting read. Thanks.
Having never tried a 407 personally how would it compare quality wise to say a Wynns Black Label or Yalumba Menzies?

only my opinion, of course, but both those are much better year in and year out.
I reckon the 2012 Black Label is the best since the 1990.

I have tried the 2012 and my thoughts were it seemed very 'polished' but not as big as most other years from 2004 onward? Almost lighter bodied? Would that be a fair assessment (from a novice)?
I've not been fortunate enough to try any pre 2004 models.
Wynns BL is a favourite of mine and I won't bother spending the extra on the 407 if it doesn't make the grade.

bigtinnie wrote:

felixp wrote:

bigtinnie wrote:Interesting read. Thanks.
Having never tried a 407 personally how would it compare quality wise to say a Wynns Black Label or Yalumba Menzies?

only my opinion, of course, but both those are much better year in and year out.
I reckon the 2012 Black Label is the best since the 1990.

I have tried the 2012 and my thoughts were it seemed very 'polished' but not as big as most other years from 2004 onward? Almost lighter bodied? Would that be a fair assessment (from a novice)?
I've not been fortunate enough to try any pre 2004 models.
Wynns BL is a favourite of mine and I won't bother spending the extra on the 407 if it doesn't make the grade.

interesting opinion, yea, might be a little lighter than previous vintages. They are currently pouring it at the Qanti business lounge in HK, and I gotta say, I just love my two or three glasses with dinner before the 7.30pm flight back to Aus. Must have a big stock of it, they have been pouring it for the past six months, so I guess I have gone thru several bottles of it hehe. They also have the Wolf Blass Grey label 2012, which I also think is a smart wine.
I have a large quantity of Black Label from 1990-1998, and bit and pieces of 80's Black Lable here and there. Unfortunately, other than 90 and 91, the 90's were a bad period for Wynns, and Black Label in particular, which somebody once told me was a problem with the mechanised harvesting. 96 and 98, of which I have a stack, are very ordinary indeed.

Graeme, could not agree more re the 407...was this named after a plane??

Of the dozen or so releases of this wine that I have tried, I can not work out where or why it exists, the Bin 8 is a much better option.
Not worth anywhere near 3 BLs or three Mildara or two St George...

407 is lost in the abyss of the great wines that Pennies do make.
It either needs a massive price reduction or a massive increase in quality...its is pitched against St Henri???? and is not even in the ball park.

Cheers
Craig

The 407 has always underwhelmed. Perhaps being multi regional is the problem. Blending warm and cool climates confuses the palate. Cool climate cabs are more delicate and deserve being alone.

Carl

phillisc wrote:Graeme, could not agree more re the 407...was this named after a plane??

Of the dozen or so releases of this wine that I have tried, I can not work out where or why it exists, the Bin 8 is a much better option.
Not worth anywhere near 3 BLs or three Mildara or two St George...

407 is lost in the abyss of the great wines that Pennies do make.
It either needs a massive price reduction or a massive increase in quality...its is pitched against St Henri???? and is not even in the ball park.

Cheers
Craig

Chuck wrote:The 407 has always underwhelmed. Perhaps being multi regional is the problem. Blending warm and cool climates confuses the palate. Cool climate cabs are more delicate and deserve being alone.

Carl

For a long time I have seen the Bin 407 as the equivalent of the Bin 28, and in that regard initially from 1991-1994 and since 2004 I think the wine succeeds in all but one key area: price. I was never really impressed with the 1998 vintage from when it was released up to the last time I tried it ten years ago, I grabbed one from the cellar along with a few other Pennies back vintages to look at this year (already done the 1998 Bin 28 & 138).

I never got why it was priced higher than the rest of the "standard bins" - I know the official reasons when it was first made in 1990 was the relative scarcity of Cabernet Sauvignon compared to Shiraz (which doesn't exactly explain why Bin 707 is half the price of Grange) and the cost of French oak (which is I think negligible in Penfolds case because they spend so much on top quality AP Johns anyway).

felixp wrote:

bigtinnie wrote:Interesting read. Thanks.
Having never tried a 407 personally how would it compare quality wise to say a Wynns Black Label or Yalumba Menzies?

only my opinion, of course, but both those are much better year in and year out.
I reckon the 2012 Black Label is the best since the 1990.

When I tried the 2012 Wynns Black Label last year I immediately said it's easily the best release since 2004. That reminds me, I should really get around to looking at the 2004 again soon...

Cheers,
Ian

Wow! What a lot of knowledge and experience you guys share with the Netosphere.

Many thanks!

phillisc wrote:Graeme, could not agree more re the 407...was this named after a plane??

Missing the joke here...?
The marketing hook was obviously to draw the link between Bin 707 and 407, which is plausible enough.
It's fairly commonly given about that it was an ex-Qantas marketing manager (never identified specifically) who named Bin 707; an alternate version I heard was that it was originally made for Qantas to serve on board the first 707s, which is equally plausible; the timelines co-incide at any rate.

As to quite why the 407 had effectively faded away as a decent wine within half-a-dozen vintages of its genesis; I don't know. The Penfolds focus was always more shiraz; maybe other Southcorp brands got the pick of the post-707 cabernet harvest; Wynns, Seppelt. Not to mention Bin 389 itself. And yeah, maybe regional blending doesn't work so well at this level for cabernet.

It's not a wine I've bought this century at any rate; and I wouldn't swap a Wynns cabernet for even 6 Bin 407s.
cheers,
Graeme

Yes Graeme, a joke, an attempt of my poor sense of humour..407, 707, 747....

Just my thoughts but a wine Richard Branson should consider on his up and coming moon flights...and to be left there.
I have never got the wine, there is a really good opportunity for Pennies to make a Black label here...it is a 25 not 70 dollar red.

It parallels my thoughts about Bin 128....after Magill Estate, one of the very few remaining single vineyard areas and indeed single vineyard wines that has consistently struggled for decades and again Wynns Shiraz at again ( seems to be a recurring theme here) 1/3 the price is a far better prospect.

Pennies are doing some great things at the top, might be time to seriously look at giving love, attention and most significantly quality fruit to the lower lesser labels in the range and build a base from there.

Cheers
Craig

felixp wrote:..........the 90's were a bad period for Wynns, and Black Label in particular, which somebody once told me was a problem with the mechanized harvesting. 96 and 98, of which I have a stack, are very ordinary indeed.

That is disappointing news indeed, as those are my oldest Black Labels. But if mechanized harvesting was the problem then shouldn't the John Riddoch also be adversely affected?

Mahmoud.

phillisc wrote:Yes Graeme, a joke, an attempt of my poor sense of humour..407, 707, 747....

Just my thoughts but a wine Richard Branson should consider on his up and coming moon flights...and to be left there.
I have never got the wine, there is a really good opportunity for Pennies to make a Black label here...it is a 25 not 70 dollar red.

It parallels my thoughts about Bin 128....after Magill Estate, one of the very few remaining single vineyard areas and indeed single vineyard wines that has consistently struggled for decades and again Wynns Shiraz at again ( seems to be a recurring theme here) 1/3 the price is a far better prospect.

Pennies are doing some great things at the top, might be time to seriously look at giving love, attention and most significantly quality fruit to the lower lesser labels in the range and build a base from there.

Cheers
Craig

I think the problem with 128, is that it is not made for people who drink wine. People who drink win (i.e. us) are meant to drink the better part of the Pennies range. The 128, and 28 for that matter, are designed for the restaurant list, or the pub. It is a recognisable 'prestige' brand and the average punter who is treating themselves, or impressing the lady friend will see it half way up the list in terms of price and treat themselves.

Fair point Rens, never actually looked at it in that manner, but think you are onto something.
Think its a very hard battle field for a young fella trying to impress these days if all he has to resort to is a $60 bottle of 128 on a wine list...back track to my days it was Wolfie Black label for around the same money.

The only problem I see here however is price.
Us wine drinkers are making decisions...companies who down grade what was once a great wine that sourced top shelf fruit, or companies who then try and put the price up for wines that do not have the fruit quality proportionately in line with such steep increases.

86, 90, 01 and 02 Bin 28 are an absolute joy IMHO... still have a case of the 86 and have over the years have consumed 50+ bottles of the rest. The difference here however is that fruit sourced for these vintages now goes elsewhere but the price???

Cheers
Craig.

Mahmoud Ali wrote: But if mechanized harvesting was the problem then shouldn't the John Riddoch also be adversely affected?
Mahmoud.

I think they accepted that it was, which is why JR came to a halt with 1999 and didn't re-emerge until 2003.
I too become more disenchanted with the 98 BL: I still have a few 96s. Time to try another.

Someone must buy 407 then, I wonder who?
Penfolds have killed off wines in the past too: remember the Clare Estate red, which ran from about 1985 until 1996? or thereabouts.
Although if 707 is $200, and Hyland or Bin 9 or something is $20, I guess there's got to be some cabernet in the middle, just to conform with branding/marketing rules.
Too bad if the wine itself is 'uncompetitive'...
cheers,
Graeme

GraemeG wrote:

Mahmoud Ali wrote: But if mechanized harvesting was the problem then shouldn't the John Riddoch also be adversely affected?
Mahmoud.

I think they accepted that it was, which is why JR came to a halt with 1999 and didn't re-emerge until 2003.
I too become more disenchanted with the 98 BL: I still have a few 96s. Time to try another.

Someone must buy 407 then, I wonder who?
Penfolds have killed off wines in the past too: remember the Clare Estate red, which ran from about 1985 until 1996? or thereabouts.
Although if 707 is $200, and Hyland or Bin 9 or something is $20, I guess there's got to be some cabernet in the middle, just to conform with branding/marketing rules.
Too bad if the wine itself is 'uncompetitive'...
cheers,
Graeme

Who buys it? Perhaps I can help. I have bought 407 in the past. I love the 389 but I also like CabSav on its own & I just simply thought 407 given the price point was the same quality so to speak. That was in my early days of learning about wine. Since then on my wine knowledge journey (thanks guys) I have to agree with many here that it doesnt stand up as VFM or against other straight cab peers. The 389 at least at RRP falls foul of VFM too. I really like the St Henri as well but I wonder whether they will use the 2012 vintage to lift the price out of the hands of us mere mortals & offset the hole from trying to sell the 2011 Grange.

bigtinnie wrote:
I have tried the 2012 and my thoughts were it seemed very 'polished' but not as big as most other years from 2004 onward? Almost lighter bodied? Would that be a fair assessment (from a novice)?

n4sir wrote:When I tried the 2012 Wynns Black Label last year I immediately said it's easily the best release since 2004. That reminds me, I should really get around to looking at the 2004 again soon...

Interesting comments about the BL. Having been at CD over the weekend and tasting this and the 2013 BL with Sue Hodder, I would definitely say the 2012 is very good, but it is a slightly more elegant style than say the 2010. The 2013 is in the mould of the 2010 and will also be excellent imo. We were lucky enough to be given the opportunity to produce an "MYOB" of 2014 Black Label with components out of barrel from the Alex84, Johnson and Childs Blocks. Very interesting to see the styles from the single blocks, Alex84 definitely bigger.

rens wrote:I think the problem with 128, is that it is not made for people who drink wine. People who drink wine (i.e. us) are meant to drink the better part of the Pennies range. The 128, and 28 for that matter, are designed for the restaurant list, or the pub. It is a recognisable 'prestige' brand and the average punter who is treating themselves, or impressing the lady friend will see it half way up the list in terms of price and treat themselves.

Sorry, but I don't agree with this. "i.e. us". The attitude seems wrong to me. There are interesting things all through the Pennies range. OK, 407 seems as if its not delivering at its price point, but I believe most others are. There was a TWE function in Melbourne a couple of weeks ago, all the TWE brands for tasting/purchase. Punters (about 200 I reckon) all got a token for a single Grange glass. I couldn't believe the number of people who just went for the Grange and couldn't be bothered to taste the range.The RWT and 389 for example were excellent. The 128 not far behind, even the Koonunga 76 was punching above its weight. Yes, prices have gone up, yes Pennies are developing more of a house style with each wine, but there are interesting wines there.
I'm happy in the right circumstances to drink wines from Koonunga 76 right through to Block 42

Interesting comments Malcolm.

Not that Wynns will give anything away, but may point to what is coming in the single vineyard releases.
To my knowledge, there has never been an Alex 84 ( only 88s), a one off Johnson's in 03 and a Johnson Shiraz cab in 04...may have these round the wrong way.

Bout time something is released from the Child's vineyard.
Certainly get the impression that this is the road that Wynns is heading down.


Cheers
Craig

GraemeG wrote:

Mahmoud Ali wrote: But if mechanized harvesting was the problem then shouldn't the John Riddoch also be adversely affected?
Mahmoud.

I think they accepted that it was, which is why JR came to a halt with 1999 and didn't re-emerge until 2003.
I too become more disenchanted with the 98 BL: I still have a few 96s. Time to try another.

Yes, Alan Jenkins has overseen a complete rehabilitation of the vineyard, if you happen to call rehab taking a chainsaw to vines, in some cases just leaving the trunk in place to get rid of the mechanically pruned "hedges"

Now delivering in spades imo

phillisc wrote:Interesting comments Malcolm.

Not that Wynns will give anything away, but may point to what is coming in the single vineyard releases.
To my knowledge, there has never been an Alex 84 ( only 88s), a one off Johnson's in 03 and a Johnson Shiraz cab in 04...may have these round the wrong way.

Bout time something is released from the Child's vineyard.
Certainly get the impression that this is the road that Wynns is heading down.


Cheers
Craig

The last couple of visits I have been really impressed with the way that parcels from individual blocks are kept whole right through the vinification process and then only blended at the last minute, when they decide what goes into what. You just don't expect that from a "big" winery. Btw, the Alex 84 is a block planted in 1984 in the Alexander area just NW of CD, not the same as the label Alex88. Childs Vineyard is at V&A lane. Also very fortunate to taste the 2012 JR on this visit!k

mjs wrote:

bigtinnie wrote:
I have tried the 2012 and my thoughts were it seemed very 'polished' but not as big as most other years from 2004 onward? Almost lighter bodied? Would that be a fair assessment (from a novice)?

n4sir wrote:When I tried the 2012 Wynns Black Label last year I immediately said it's easily the best release since 2004. That reminds me, I should really get around to looking at the 2004 again soon...

Interesting comments about the BL. Having been at CD over the weekend and tasting this and the 2013 BL with Sue Hodder, I would definitely say the 2012 is very good, but it is a slightly more elegant style than say the 2010. The 2013 is in the mould of the 2010 and will also be excellent imo. We were lucky enough to be given the opportunity to produce an "MYOB" of 2014 Black Label with components out of barrel from the Alex84, Johnson and Childs Blocks. Very interesting to see the styles from the single blocks, Alex84 definitely bigger.

Great to see Childs Block back in the mix after being a major casualty of the rejuvenation process - I remember Sue Hodder saying it was the backbone of the 1998 John Riddoch when it was released, and Andrew Jefford telling me a few years ago it was one of the really unlucky vineyards that had to be completely ripped out and replanted.

AFWAC has a complete vertical of the Wynns Single Vineyard wines planned for August 31st, fingers are crossed we can get Sue or Sarah Pidgeon to attend. I guess you guys might be interested?



Next Monday we have Brian & Peter Lynn presenting their beauties - I love Coonawarra reds, especially this time of year!

Cheers,
Ian

Ian,

The 2014 Childs block looked great on Sat in our mickey-mouse blending exercise.

I may well be interested in the AFWAC Wynns tasting, its been couple of years since I've been to an AFWAC event!! OK, make that four years ... haha. I will have to pencil it in, just have to wangle a trip to Adl.

Saw the Prof in passing on Sun morning at CD. Love the Majella reds, especially the cabernet and the Malleea. It is a beautiful time of year for a glass of Coonawarra red, that's for sure!!

cheers,
Malcolm

got an email from uncles Dan's today.... discounting the 2012 407 to $52. now then, there is a bargain, a wine discounted down to only about double what it is worth!!

My 2cents worth...Penfolds do Cab Shiraz well at the Bin level, straight Cab 407 is not VFM in my view. For $50 and under you can get some snorting WA Cabs Voyager, Woodlands and many others. I suppose there is less competition on the Cab Shiraz market but straight Shiraz provides some good buying sub $50. The one reason I still buy 389 is I know it's sgeing profile. Very reliable 10 to 15 of age and worthwhile. Just starting to look at some older screw cap 389s and I think their development is delayed.

Broughy wrote:My 2cents worth...Penfolds do Cab Shiraz well at the Bin level, straight Cab 407 is not VFM in my view. For $50 and under you can get some snorting WA Cabs Voyager, Woodlands and many others. I suppose there is less competition on the Cab Shiraz market but straight Shiraz provides some good buying sub $50. The one reason I still buy 389 is I know it's sgeing profile. Very reliable 10 to 15 of age and worthwhile. Just starting to look at some older screw cap 389s and I think their development is delayed.

that is very interesting, and IMO might be one of the real negatives of screw cap. I am slowly going thru a case of 2006 LEAS chardonnay and I swear the dam wine has not aged one iota from the day it was bottled!!!! Whilst that might sound great, do we really want wines that used to take 8-10 years to display glorious maturity to now take 25???? There seems to be quite a few notes of delayed development in screw-cap wines going around, the implications of which might be very, very significant. If this delayed development turns out to be factual, imagine how long a screw-cap 2010 Latour might take to mature!!!! 100 years?????? Who would buy that, knowing your great grand children might enjoy a bottle in the twilight of their life!!!!!