The Auswine Forum

So I recently went on a cellar door expedition with a mate and we came across an amazing Australian white wine with a retail price north of $150. We both agreed it was a beautiful wine, but there was this huge reluctance to buy it at that price largely because it was a white wine. Had it been an equally enjoyable red it would have been a no brainer in my books.

Are we preconditioned to think of white wines as a less desirable commodity thus justifying the price disparity between equally enjoyable reds? If so, is this fair or justified? Or is it that reds are comparatively over priced?

As an aside, I suppose white burgundy is an exception to the above premise (to an extent).

Excellent question, if I may say so.

It is a funny one but you are spot on, there seems to be a real reluctance for people to pay premium prices for premium white wine. Obviously there are exceptions, people who are drinking white burgundy etc, but amongst my friends who drink Australian wine, most of them would cap out at $50 or $60 for a white wine but would happily pay 2, 3 or 4 times that for a red. And it isn't necessarily because they have a strong preference for red wine.

I suspect the answer is complex, but it seems to me that because good, even iconic, white wine can often be had at markedly lower prices than iconic reds, people have just become conditioned to white wine being cheaper than red wine. Let's face it, most Australian chardonnay, with a few notable exceptions, cap out at under $80 a bottle, even for iconic stuff like Eileen Hardy, LEAS etc. Semillon is even cheaper, and Riesling is pocket change. As I understand it this is at least in large part due to the cost of production and holding being less, as chardonnay generally spends less time in oak (Semillon and Riesling even less or none) and in the cellar before release etc etc but I am sure there are other factors there too.

So I guess as a comparative exercise, if people can get LEAS or Eileen Hardy or Heytesbury or Vat 47 or Moss Wood or whatever their premium chardonnay of choice is for $50, $60 or $70, that becomes the upper limit of what they are prepared to pay, even though other wines, for example Giaconda Chardonnay, may be excellent value for what they are judged alone.

So I think the thing is people look at it as a comparative exercise rather than judging the value of the particular wine on its merits, and then that leads to a view that higher priced wines are not good value, so people won't buy them. That is definitely an argument that has merit because most of us have limited wine budgets and so a rational expenditure would see you leaning towards a cost/benefit analysis, but I personally take the view that whilst buying for comparative value is sometimes important, to be able to drink a wine the quality of Giaconda for say $120 is an absolute steal, even though most other Aussie competitors are considerably cheaper.

However, when you add bubbles, the stigma is reversed. Go figure!

I agree with everything that Maybs has said there but I'll add a couple of things.
Australia's best Chardonnays haven't been around all that long in comparison to the Reds like Grange, HoG or the Wynns Black label or Micheal which all go back to the 50s. Regions like Margaret River and Mornington Peninsula are only 40-50 years old. Giaconda was established in 1982. Tasmania is a recent thing for Yattana and the Eileen Hardy.
I'd also expect that the quality of white wines in general has improved more significantly than the quality of red wines as technology and techniques have evolved (for example temperature control and night harvesting), and again this has only happened in recent decades.

Perceived longevity to do with most white wines play a big part too - who buys an Australian white on release to have as a possible twenty one year old wine? While the majority of people buy both white and red wines to drink by next Tuesday, a relative few buy reds with the idea of either cellaring them or selling at a potential profit down the track. The number who think of doing this for whites is just a mere fraction of this, most think whites have a natural use by date of a year or two, or simply just don't like the style of aged whites to start with.

The other major thing is just pure demand, here and overseas, and we are seriously lacking in that at the top end. If a major overseas market decided our top Chardonnay seriously kicked Burgundian butt (especially with all of their premox issues) and decided to pay the equivalent that might change, but at present we still seem to be stuck with the general perception that we make good "value" chardonnay, the old sunshine in a bottle (and that's despite some very good feedback recently in Europe about our top wines). As for the demand for Australian Riesling and Semillon overseas, is there really anything significant of note to begin with, let alone those who will pay top dollar?

Cheers,
Ian

n4sir wrote:Perceived longevity to do with most white wines play a big part too - who buys an Australian white on release to have as a possible twenty one year old wine? While the majority of people buy both white and red wines to drink by next Tuesday, a relative few buy reds with the idea of either cellaring them or selling at a potential profit down the track. The number who think of doing this for whites is just a mere fraction of this, most think whites have a natural use by date of a year or two, or simply just don't like the style of aged whites to start with.

The other major thing is just pure demand, here and overseas, and we are seriously lacking in that at the top end. If a major overseas market decided our top Chardonnay seriously kicked Burgundian butt (especially with all of their premox issues) and decided to pay the equivalent that might change, but at present we still seem to be stuck with the general perception that we make good "value" chardonnay, the old sunshine in a bottle (and that's despite some very good feedback recently in Europe about our top wines). As for the demand for Australian Riesling and Semillon overseas, is there really anything significant of note to begin with, let alone those who will pay top dollar?

Cheers,
Ian

You are right Ian, supply and demand has to play a large part, and I assume the demand issue is price sensitive because of a lot of the reasons discussed above.

I ma not complaining though, it's great news for us lovers of white wine. In recent times I have been slowly working on converting some of my mates who are pretty die hard red wine drinkers to white wine, for the very reason that to me, the value to be had at times is astonishing.

Not me. But then I grew up in Germany. However, I am always reluctant to spend north of $150 on a bottle of wine, regardless if red or white. Maybe that's my German heritage as well. By the way, I very much enjoy some of the Australian Riesling.

I have a white wine stigma. It might not make logical sense, but it is an emotional reaction or something I dont truly understand.

I know I really enjoy white wine, particularly Chardonnay, Semillon, Riesling & Sticky (gawd i love sticky). But I dont seem to chase it in the same way, or look to store it to age. My cellar is only 17% white wine. Its kind weird, I like it but dont chase it. I know from the odd occasion that aged riesling or semillon can be awesome, but I dont come across it as much as well?

Lastly, sorry to lower the standard of conversation but perhaps it stems from college? I drank a lot of goon back then. Fruity Lexia was the staple, as the hangovers werent as bad compared to red goon which was just a horror. Playing goon of fortune you never wanted to have to drink the red. So from here, I only ever drink red wine if it is quality, whereas I find white wine much more palatable at any level. So maybe in my mind I have discounted white, or revered good red?

Jim wrote:Not me. But then I grew up in Germany. However, I am always reluctant to spend north of $150 on a bottle of wine, regardless if red or white. Maybe that's my German heritage as well. By the way, I very much enjoy some of the Australian Riesling.

Aged GG rieslings & sauternes are near the top of the reasons I drink wine. 'Happy' to pay the price is taking it a bit far, but prepared, most certainly.

LEAS and Voyager Estate chardonnay are my two favourite Australian white wines, and I would happily part with $150/bottle for each. Therefore, for me at least, each of these wines is a serious bargain.

I stand by my purchase Diddy, money well spent!!

Blesso wrote:I stand by my purchase Diddy, money well spent!!

Second guessing the purchase!? Just kidding - it was a great wine!

Interestingly enough it was a white wine that tripled my spend threshold from about $50 to $150 in one mouthful. Unfortunately it only keeps going up from there..

I agree that the 'cellarability' is a factor for a lot of people as the perception seems to be that the longer you can cellar a wine for, the 'better' it is which is probably a bit unfortunate.

I know I've personally found as much delight and complexity in a Chardonnay that's singing at 8-10 years as I have in a Shiraz or Cabernet that's crooning at 20-30 years.

Diddy,

In my books there is no white wine stigma, rather I revel in the absolute joy of 20 year old Rieslings and aged Hunter semillons, Noble one and of course all things botrytis.

If you want to pay north of $150 for a white then I guess thats up to the punter in question..and their much deeper pockets than thee.
I did buy some Mt Mary Triolet once and thought never again...simply not worth it.

I actually think its a reverse stigma...how dare the best part of 50 wineries from Margaret River, Clare, Eden Valley and south west Victoria make dozens and dozens of IMHO world class Rieslings for $20-40
I am really pissed at commentators, even Mr Halliday in the latest wine companion...'they should be charging $200+ or should be 5 times the price!'. I just wonder how unhelpful and negative these comments and opinions actually are.
Agree with Ian re market forces, but not every wine has to have stratospheric prices, even red wine for that matter.

I think its a great pity that whilst Chardonnay is considered the absolute star and darling of the white wine set, I wished that Pennies for example had continued its white wine trials with Semillon or indeed the most noblest of grapes...the humble but beautiful Riesling.

No white wine stigma here, I am off to a local hotel this weekend, partaking in the Summer of Riesling, with about 70 on offer and several hundred in attendance.
We will be all smiling at each other thinking not much tops this.

Cheers
Craig