The Auswine Forum

After many years of drinking mainly Australian wine i have found that my palate seems to be changing and i'm increasingly attracted to the flavour profiles of the wines of Europe. So far I've been focusing mainly on France (Burgundy & Bordeaux) and whilst i have found some good wines I've also had my fair share of expensive disappointments with many wines upwards of $50 not really delivering. Now i understand that in the world of Burgundy prices can be astronomical and that
$50-60 or so for a bottle of wine is not a lot but its the top end of my budget (with the exception of special occasion wines) and i was wondering if better value can be had with Italian wines ?

The problem is i have next to zero experience with Italian wine and was hoping that the more enlightened member of the forum might be able to offer up there thoughts. Is there a better $$/quality ratio to be found and if so are there any specific regions, producers that are easily available in Australia that are worth checking out ? (The budget i had in mind was in the $30-50 range)

I understand that this is a very subjective question but i would be interested in peoples thoughts

Cheers
Chris

casper2096 wrote:After many years of drinking mainly Australian wine i have found that my palate seems to be changing and i'm increasingly attracted to the flavour profiles of the wines of Europe. So far I've been focusing mainly on France (Burgundy & Bordeaux) and whilst i have found some good wines I've also had my fair share of expensive disappointments with many wines upwards of $50 not really delivering. Now i understand that in the world of Burgundy prices can be astronomical and that
$50-60 or so for a bottle of wine is not a lot but its the top end of my budget (with the exception of special occasion wines) and i was wondering if better value can be had with Italian wines ?

The problem is i have next to zero experience with Italian wine and was hoping that the more enlightened member of the forum might be able to offer up there thoughts. Is there a better $$/quality ratio to be found and if so are there any specific regions, producers that are easily available in Australia that are worth checking out ? (The budget i had in mind was in the $30-50 range)

I understand that this is a very subjective question but i would be interested in peoples thoughts

Cheers
Chris

I've struggled to find decent value in Italian wines as the better ones are normally $50+ here in Australia. I'm sure there are a few decent ones around but I've yet to find them. I've had much better luck with Spanish wines. Really good wines are available for your price bracket of $30-$50.

Check out this thread as it may help

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13689

Cheers
Ian

Hi Chris, I agree with Ian. My experience with Italian wines has left me disappointed. My experience is limited and I am sure there are many great Italian wines out there, but finding them is tricky. Recently I went to an exhibition of Italian wines of over 50 producers and unfortunately I was disappointed. The generalisation (maybe naive of me), is that are dry and tanic and should be consumed with food, however they do make sweet variations.
Like Ian I have enjoyed Spanish wines, which you get great value for money. I also have enjoyed South American wines being somewhat similar to Australian wines.
I am sure people will disagree with me, and I would like to hear their opinions which will point me in the direction of some Italian wines to try and expand my horizons.

There's a wine right under your nose...

Seek out the 2012 Eden Valley Frost Dodger Shiraz made by Torzi Matthew's. For just over $30 it's made in an Italian style. A portion of the fruit is air-dried on racks appassimento style, concentrating the flavours and ratcheting up the richness and warmth. It's a superb wine, with an Italian twist.

Hi Chris. I've been buying Italian wines for a number of years now. My starting point was entry level stuff - chianti classico, nebbiolo langhe and barbera - and gradually shifted to the lesser known varietals such as nerello mascalese, nero d'avola, frappato, aglianico and sagrantino. Some were just as Ian and Phil say - tannic, acidic with muted fruit - but the better of these just needed time to come together. And there is plenty of immediate gratification to be had in the $15 - $25 range with reds (don't care about whites) made for shorter term keeping. You will get really good wines for $50 to $60 but for the better barolos, barbarescos and brunello di montalcinos you will certainly have to pay a bit more. Still you only need a couple of each to put aside for special occasions say 10 years in the future. There is no shortage of wine writers and wine blogs that will provide opinions, tasting notes and guidance. Gary Walsh is one whose opinion I hold highly. Huon Hooke also knows his stuff. But as I said, there are many others so it's mostly a matter of searching on line and over time, refining your list of advisers to those whose recommendations work for you. I've made 2014 my year for buying Italian. There's a good chance that 2015 will go that way too.

Keep the faith - there's some really good stuff out there.

If you're looking for a good local Nebbiolo I recommend the 2013 Ravensworth Nebbiolo. It's VFM and vert tasty to boot.

Cheers
Matt

France should still have a lot to offer if you don't choose the two most expensive regions in it. Cotes du Rhone, Loire, Jura, Languedoc, Beaujolais etc.

Like any large wine producing country, Italy can be a minefield. As Australia is to many Europeans! Ooh, they're all over oaked ripe monsters they say. Here we say of Italian, oh they're either Ripasso sweetish raisin styles or dry tannic wines that need food. But some of the best wines in the world are Italian, there's a huge variety of styles, and while they'll always cost a bit more (although not always, soft, easy drinking Montepulciano can be superb value), the rewards are worth it! I'm also on a minor Italian bender of sorts ATM, and loving it.

Peter's post above was right on the money, no need for me to essentially repeat that. Benevelli Pierro, Vietti, Traversa all good under $30/40 and going up a bit, fascinating wines around from Passopisciaro, Elio Grasso, Conterno amongst many many others. Auctions can a good way of getting some with a bit of age, which the Nebbiolos definitely need. Some of the Tuscany stuff can be a good way to start with their Cabernet influence, but softer 'pizza' style wines from grapes like Montepulciano and Barbera can also be lot of fun.

Five Way Cellars Paddington have an Italian Brochure 2014 may be a start for you to explore a range of Italian Wine Regions.
Italy has 4 main regions- Piedmont where you find Nebbiolo/Barbera/Dolcetto grapes used to make Barolo and Barbarescos wines that are generally drunk after 10 years plus in the bottle. The Tuscany region where you will find Sangiovese grape used in Chianti's and Brunello di Montalcino and Vino Nobile Montepulciano. Then there is the Montepulciano grape wines which is a grape similar to sangiovese which is grown throughout Tuscany and Umbria. The wines from Veneto region are light styles with the exception the Amarone della Valpolicella which is made by drying the grapes of Corvina, Rondinelle and Molinara on racks to intensify the flavour profile.The fourth region is Sicily where the Nero d', Avola and Grecanico are the main red grape varieties. The Livorno Province located adjacent to Tuscany produces so called super tuscans wines using cabernet sauvignon, merlot and sangiovese- the stand outs wines being Tignanello made by Antinori Family ( the Penfolds of Italy )and Sassicaia made by Tenuta San Guido.

Dennisr wrote:Five Way Cellars Paddington have an Italian Brochure 2014 may be a start for you to explore a range of Italian Wine Regions.
Italy has 4 main regions- Piedmont where you find Nebbiolo/Barbera/Dolcetto grapes used to make Barolo and Barbarescos wines that are generally drunk after 10 years plus in the bottle. The Tuscany region where you will find Sangiovese grape used in Chianti's and Brunello di Montalcino and Vino Nobile Montepulciano. Then there is the Montepulciano grape wines which is a grape similar to sangiovese which is grown throughout Tuscany and Umbria. The wines from Veneto region are light styles with the exception the Amarone della Valpolicella which is made by drying the grapes of Corvina, Rondinelle and Molinara on racks to intensify the flavour profile.The fourth region is Sicily where the Nero d', Avola and Grecanico are the main red grape varieties. The Livorno Province located adjacent to Tuscany produces so called super tuscans wines using cabernet sauvignon, merlot and sangiovese- the stand outs wines being Tignanello made by Antinori Family ( the Penfolds of Italy )and Sassicaia made by Tenuta San Guido.

Tried a Tignanello in Tuscany last year. Wondered why it was so good.

Matt wrote:There's a wine right under your nose...

And of course there's also Joe Grilli (Primo Estate) who makes a number of Italian varieties. He has now expanded to producing and bottling wine in Italy which is imported back into Australia. The Tuscan Shiraz Sangiovese from Cortona is particularly worth a look (and affordable).

I was on a similar quest at the end of last year and am fortunate enough to live close to a Continental store that imports a large range directly from Italy. I had a chat with the manager about which styles of Australian wines I enjoyed and he put me on an 'educational' course. The surprise for me was how good the lower end, lighter styles were. Something like a Bera Brachetto, (which is a bit of a Lambrusco) is a great way to please those who only drink Moscato but also not so one dimensionally sweet that it's unpalatable - it became the goto drink with the in-laws over Christmas. I also quite enjoyed the Ripasso style wines (Lenotti for one) - so I wouldn't be put off by their reputation.
But ultimately the wines I wanted to start buying were all more than $100 per bottle - (try to find a decent Amarone for less than $150) - which I just couldn't justify on a regular basis.

Sad isn't it TrickyH. The same old story repeating endlessly. You start with something like Riparosso thinking that's where it will stay. Before you know it, you're dabbling in entry level sangiovese and nebbiolo. Then it all goes crazy and your living room is littered with empty bottles of Barolo, Barbaresco and super Tuscans. All you can do is move to stubbies of Toro Albala PXs and look for balm (or was that embalment) in the sweetness.

Ahh, Italian wine. I drink quite a lot, but have to be very much in the mood, and try to drink with food. The wines can be fascinating and delicious...but they can be a challenge initially, if you are used to drinking Aussie reds. I'd try some reasonable value bottles from a couple of key grapes to see what you like first. Some suggestions would be:

Nebbiolo. Don't go straight for a Barolo or Barbaresco...have a go on a Langhe Nebbiolo. I see Gavin personally bought some Benevelli recently (about $30) which is probably a good sign...
Sangiovese. Have a look for a decent Chianti Classico from one of the better producers. Fontodi/Felsina/Badia/Fonturotoli/Caffagio/isole e Olena all come to mind. Just go for a regular bottling, but do your homework...there us a lot of rubbish out there.

If you like what you taste, then go from there...

Simon

Phil H wrote: The generalisation (maybe naive of me), is that are dry and tanic and should be consumed with food, however they do make sweet variations.

Peter Schlesinger wrote: Some were just as Ian and Phil say - tannic, acidic with muted fruit - but the better of these just needed time to come together. And there is plenty of immediate gratification to be had in the $15 - $25 range with reds (don't care about whites) made for shorter term keeping.

TiggerK wrote: As Australia is to many Europeans! Ooh, they're all over oaked ripe monsters they say. Here we say of Italian, oh they're either Ripasso sweetish raisin styles or dry tannic wines that need food.

I quite like dry wines with acidity - that is the whole point of wine and food - and the Italians have that down pat. Thank goodness. Nothing like a savoury, acidic Barbera with minerality and dried cherry notes to go with food. Dry, savoury acidity - a key marker for an Italian wine when tasting blind. If anything that is what is sometimes missing from Australian wines and hence the addition of acidity. As for tannins, you need that as well to compliment rich or meaty foods and provide the structure for aging.

Funny thing is I tend to avoid Italian wines with an "international" flavour to them - things with Cabernet, Merlot and Syrah in the blend.

TrickyH wrote: But ultimately the wines I wanted to start buying were all more than $100 per bottle - (try to find a decent Amarone for less than $150) - which I just couldn't justify on a regular basis.

I think one thing Australians have had to come to grips with is the high cost of foreign wines - a sad but unfortunate truth. Amarones here, Masi, Zenato, and a whole host of others cost C$50 (same as the Aussie dollar) and in some stores $40 - in fact the co-operative producer Negrar's Amarone costs less than $30. These are regular prices and not sale prices. Perhaps with popularity and bigger import volumes the price might reach realistic levels.

My two cents, which, now that Canada has eliminated the penny and introduced rounding, amounts to nothing.

Cheers..............................Mahmoud.

Hey Guys,

Just wanted to say thanks for all the feedback an opinions. At least now i have a bit of an idea on where to start on this new journey !

Cheers
Chris

Peter Schlesinger wrote:Sad isn't it TrickyH. The same old story repeating endlessly. You start with something like Riparosso thinking that's where it will stay. Before you know it, you're dabbling in entry level sangiovese and nebbiolo. Then it all goes crazy and your living room is littered with empty bottles of Barolo, Barbaresco and super Tuscans. All you can do is move to stubbies of Toro Albala PXs and look for balm (or was that embalment) in the sweetness.

It's like you've seen into my heart - or at least into my living room. For some reason the PX gets to live in the kitchen cupboard (alongside the cooking sherry) rather than the cellar - I suspect it's so my wife has easier access.

Chris, please report back on any interesting discoveries, I for one would be very interested to hear.

Casper, how about you give us an idea of what wines you like to drink, with and without food, and we can come up with some Italianate suggestions?

pstarr wrote:Casper, how about you give us an idea of what wines you like to drink, with and without food, and we can come up with some Italianate suggestions?

Hi Paul,

Sure. Like many i started off drinking quite a bit of Shiraz from the Barossa and Mclaren Vale. The bigger the better was the motto. Now however i find that i'm attracted to wines which are more medium bodied. Hunter Shiraz, Cabernet from Margaret River/Coonawarra and increasingly more pinot noir.

As for specific producers then in Australia i'd say Voyager Estate (Cabernet & Shiraz) Mcwilliams, Tyrrells, Meerea Park (Shiraz), Curly Flat & Oakridge (Pinot) and Majella (Cabernet) would be among my favourites.

I don't have a major issue with tannin and can quite happily sip away at something without food so long as everything is in balance

Cheers

Thanks. That's helpful. Hunter shiraz already has you close to quite a few Italian red profiles. Decent Chianti, with food and with a bit of age on it, has a fair bit in common with Hunter shiraz. You might also find some reasonably priced wines based on the Montepulciano grape have a fullness of fruit to go along with some tannin. Looking further South, you might find you like wines based on the Nero d'Avola grape or Nerello Mascalese. Stuff from Sicily won't break the bank (try Occhipinti SP68 blend of Nero & Frappato, which has a good presence on some Aus wine lists and isn't exxy).

In Australia, some suggestions:
- Coriole's basic sangiovese out of McLaren Vale
- Freeman vineyards blend of Rondinella and Corvina from Hilltops (a nod to the amarone & ripasso processes of the Veneto)
- The Ravensworth sangiovese from Murrumbateman (Canberra).

All of those are going to have some fruit weight and brightness about them (enough to be familiar), while still showing some of the acid-brightness and tannins that Italian grapes and wines can provide.

On whites, I reckon have a look to the North. Trentino, Fruili, Alto-Adige etc. You can find some decent-value whites, straight or blended, with enough weight and texture to handle things like good ham. Italian whites don't have to be washed-out and thin.

Campbell Mattinson, Gary Walsh & Mike Bennie cover quite a large number of Italian wines in their reviews on Winefront. Subscriptions aren't expensive and it can be a good way of getting a feel for what you might like. Trawling around on my sporadic site about Italian grapes and wines in Australia might also help: http://biancorossowine.blogspot.com.au/

If you get to Sydney on your travels, dropping in to somewhere like 121BC can be great as a way of tasting a bunch of different Italian wines by the glass, served by people who know what they are talking about.

My first italian wine experience was with Barbera and it remains a favourite but can be variable. Chianti to me though is the taste of Italy. Preferably Chianti Classico. It tastes like a bloody charred steak should be in front of me.

My go-to chianti is Monsanto, love that wine and it consistently punches above its weight in all levels. Try the Riserva.

Last night I tried an elcheapo 2012 chianti called When We Dance. Everything was in the right place and I think it does the job for an entry level.

However, have a go at a decent Barolo but beware, a Barolo habit is on par with a burgundy habit, a slippery slope.

simon1980 wrote:Sangiovese. Have a look for a decent Chianti Classico from one of the better producers. Fontodi/Felsina/Badia/Fonturotoli/Caffagio/isole e Olena all come to mind. Just go for a regular bottling, but do your homework...there us a lot of rubbish out there.

Simon

Simon's list of suggested chianti's is spot on the money. All should be below $40/50 and are definitely worth using to get into Sangiovese.

Which City do you live in Casper?or are you out bush?

Some great advice on here. Top work team!

Mahmoud, your last sentence cracked me up mate.

Cheers, Travis.

PS: if I could add one bit of advice it would be to drink your Italian reds and white regularly. Go for a good month of drinking nothing but Italian wines to allow your palate to calibrate. Think of it as if your mouth has gone on holiday for four weeks to the vineyards of Italy. Also, see if you can grab some high-end Lambrusco. Stunning stuff.

For value Italians in Australia...Definitely agree w/ the Chianti suggestion...as well as the Vino Nobile de Montepulciano...

You can look for Nero d'Avola..some good value there..
Valpolicella is also pretty cheap...a lot of junk in this space too though..
You can also find pretty reasonable prices on Barbera...

I don't find Brunello too bad inflated price wise.....but Barolo and Barbaresco are priced stupidly..although not Bordeaux/Burg stupid..

Bought 2009 Querceto Chianti Classico Riserva whilst in Chianti recently and I loved it.
Quite meaty and robust for a sangiovese blend.

I'm not sure it's particulary helpful to simply refer to Italian wines. The difference from top to bottom and from grape to grape is extreme. For example I simply do like sangiovese as a grape and love Nebbiolo. i do not like Primitivo and i love Nero D'Avolo. I think the best you can do is get a handle on flavour profiles of the individual grapes and take it from there..... Start at the cheaper end of the scale, do some homework, and get a few bottles under your belt.....

There are a lot of Aussie winemakers producing very good wine from Italian varieties at very good value for money.

The Granite Belt have some extremely good Italian varieties.

From what I've seen of Italian imports I prefer the local interpretations and much prefer supporting our Aussie winemakers.

gap wrote:There are a lot of Aussie winemakers producing very good wine from Italian varieties at very good value for money.

The Granite Belt have some extremely good Italian varieties.

From what I've seen of Italian imports I prefer the local interpretations and much prefer supporting our Aussie winemakers.

Agreed, but I guarantee you that the cellars of most Aussie winemakers will be mostly full of Italian, German, Spanish and French wine.... I support the whole world in my buying!

TiggerK wrote:Agreed, but I guarantee you that the cellars of most Aussie winemakers will be mostly full of Italian, German, Spanish and French wine.... I support the whole world in my buying!

You may be right. My point is to buy local as opposed to imports unless you either can't find anything local that you like or there is nothing available in that variety.

gap wrote:

TiggerK wrote:Agreed, but I guarantee you that the cellars of most Aussie winemakers will be mostly full of Italian, German, Spanish and French wine.... I support the whole world in my buying!

You may be right. My point is to buy local as opposed to imports unless you either can't find anything local that you like or there is nothing available in that variety.

I see what you're saying about buying local..but wine, even if made from the same grape variety, is different everywhere around the world. To me it isn't about saying, well that McLaren Vale Tempranillo tasted fine so I don't want to try some from Spain...Or that Hunter Barbera was fine, no need to have some from Italy...You'd want to try stuff from everywhere...There are way too many things to try and not enough time...and while you might prefer that Hunter Barbera to the ones you've had from Italy, chances are you haven't tried a lot of them just by virtue of the selection not being available in AU. I'd rather try a lot of different things in a year than a lot of a single or a few wines.

Of course, if once you prefer something you like having that all the time, that's fine too. Some people buy cases and cases of the same wine and drink it all year long...nothing wrong with that.

Barbera d'Asti, Barbera d'Alba, Toscana IGT and Chianti Classicos (cf. Chianti) are all a good places to start IMHO for good QPR Italian wine. Plenty of great value there under $30; some duds too sure, but that's every region right.