The Auswine Forum

I put my toe into the wine auction market about 10 months ago and subscribed to Langtons. While it appears that many posters appear to harbour fairly negative views about Langtons, some of which I've come to appreciate over the last year, I was wondering if those who do use them are finding the new website a royal pain in the a$$.

The old website had some shortcomings but, to me anyway, the new one, seems to only to exacerbate those and then make new f#*kups.

My main issues are:

- Logging in on my iPhone is difficult enough, navigating once that is achieved is nigh on impossible;

- The old website may not have had the best photo platform, but at least the wines were adequately described;

- Searching is slow and you don't have the option of different multiples (ie 25, 50, 100, 'show all') of wine per page;

- etc, etc

And I can't log in from my work computer, while this is more an issue with my work's IT environment and not directly Langtons' fault it wasn't an issue before and is annoying.

I appreciate that it is early days and teething problems are to be expected, but I'd be interested to hear if others are similarly perplexed.

DD

One word, woeful.

Did they even run UAT? I seriously cannot believe anyone would sign this off from that perspective. It is a clunky, amateurish shadow of it's former self. It looks like someone has tried to save money by hacking the code from the Dan Murphys site and then changing the look and feel of it. Two completely different mindsets when it comes to shopping the Joe Blogg Shopper looking for something vs the fairly wine savvy Wine Auction customer.

dave vino wrote:One word, woeful.

Did they even run UAT? I seriously cannot believe anyone would sign this off from that perspective. It is a clunky, amateurish shadow of it's former self. It looks like someone has tried to save money by hacking the code from the Dan Murphys site and then changing the look and feel of it. Two completely different mindsets when it comes to shopping the Joe Blogg Shopper looking for something vs the fairly wine savvy Wine Auction customer.

If they copied Dan Murphys it would at least have some better features...

It would load faster....the search would be better...at least with the DM filter you can add more things but with Langtons you're stuck with single selections in each category...for example region you can pick Barossa, Mclaren Vale..etc..Langtons..NOPE. You can also select to have more entries per page (before you have to hit next page or more) with DMs...Langtons? Nope....

I can't even remove things from my bid list..and it inconsistently shows you information because it is so slow to load. There is no counter to tell you when the auction is ending and because barely anything fits on the screen, it makes it really difficult to track (Plus it loads slowly so this makes it worse).

As poor as the previous version was (It didn't even have a back button during the search), at least it was fast and efficient. This one looks nice on the surface but the usability is bad...and the speed is ridiculous...I mean, if you're going to run your web site on a 286 computer, you shouldn't have it load all the pictures...Wouldn't it be easier to show the pictures if people drill down into the entry? Otherwise you're just wasting bandwidth and CPU...

Agree, I've checked it out a few times and it's horrible. It would be better if there was an option to go without pictures so you can fit more on the page.

I used to like how in the bidding window on the old site you could see pretty much everything at once, with green or purple highlights to show status.
How am i supposed to keep up with my bids on this new site????

Not a fan, I really liked the old site, I'd been using it for about 8 years, hopefully they sort this one out.

dave vino wrote:One word, woeful.

One even more to the point word, f***ed.

I am guessing the bean counters at Woolies have tried to cut the costs down, and have got someone in IT to try and manage the Langtons website in a platform sharing components with the other Woollies owned retail websites, in the process completely ignoring the millions of $$$ Langtons had spent in obtaining a workable real time auction website. The result (as mentioned plenty of times in a previous thread) is a massive epic fail on so many levels it just isn't funny. It's f***ed, no other way to describe it.

We here are bitching about this crap, but we are also tip of the iceberg stuff - there are a lot more bigger fish already seriously pissed off at this debacle which should bring about real changes sooner than later. Watch this space.

My 2c,
Ian

In its current form it's only good for selling high end otherwise it's not worth the effort for real buyers.
Sad.

We all hope they're reading this, right ?

The only way I can use it, is by downloading the PDF and scrolling through that, finding ones of interest and then searching for them and adding them to my watch list. Like Polymer you can't remove anything from it, even when you click OK 'do you really want to delete it'.

The pictures don't even show in the main notes of the wine when you drill down on some occasions so you can't see a close up of the bottle.

I had my first look about an hour ago, and I agree that it is rubbish. I did ponder whether I could get used to it, but I think it is always going to annoy me. There are plenty of other retail sites that use this style of delivery, but I don't like any of them very much
It looks to be that they have moved to a content management system rather than a custom built website. I think it looks pretty enough, it just isn't that usable in the way that I want to use it. I reckon they did UAT, but they used the wrong people for it.
I'd be surprised if they didn't have a mobile app in the works - I think there is probably a bunch of middleware that is being reused for the lowest common denominator, which would be mobile.
It is possible that I just wont bother with it anymore. I've not been buying much over the past 12 months anyway as I don't really need it so this might be a convenient excuse to let my subscription lapse.

paulf wrote:I had my first look about an hour ago, and I agree that it is rubbish. I did ponder whether I could get used to it, but I think it is always going to annoy me. There are plenty of other retail sites that use this style of delivery, but I don't like any of them very much
It looks to be that they have moved to a content management system rather than a custom built website. I think it looks pretty enough, it just isn't that usable in the way that I want to use it. I reckon they did UAT, but they used the wrong people for it.
I'd be surprised if they didn't have a mobile app in the works - I think there is probably a bunch of middleware that is being reused for the lowest common denominator, which would be mobile.
It is possible that I just wont bother with it anymore. I've not been buying much over the past 12 months anyway as I don't really need it so this might be a convenient excuse to let my subscription lapse.

Yeah but I reckon any mobile app would have to be so far removed from the full site, that it would make the user prefer the mobile interface....yeah, that's not going to happen.

I actually used the old Langtons via my phone a lot because I was always driving while the auctions were ending , I need a site I can navigate easily while I'm driving or I'm going elsewhere. ( Maybe to hell, I'm not sure yet)

The worst part by far is the search functionality. It means you can't get to what you want quickly, and with the rest of the presentation being so difficult to navigate this is just ridiculous

I have bought a fair bit or stuff through there in the last 3 months since my cellar and trying new things but I will simply not be using this new site, I will be looking elsewhere

I will be making my feelings about the new crap web site known to Langton people on the 15 May 14 in Sydney I am sure all forum members will do the same at the classification tasting evenings. I have built almost my entire wine cellar via langtons but now will not bother until they fix it.

Just had another look to see whats on offer.

The Filter wines by column is ridiculous!!!

Regions / Varieties are not in alphabetical order.

Vintages are not in numerical order.

WTF????

What was Langtons previous commission for Buyers ? Was it 15% PLUS Gst or 15% Including GST ?

markg wrote:What was Langtons previous commission for Buyers ? Was it 15% PLUS Gst or 15% Including GST ?

It was 15% plus a 1% credit card fee on the total (1.5% for Amex I think). Credit card fees now included in the 16.5%, so a slight increase.

It's apparent that no-one with any wine expertise at all has been consulted. I looked at the "filter' they have on Region. Some idiot thinks it's a good idea to sequence the regions by number of bottles. So 'Barossa' is first on the list, McLaren Vale is second. You can't re-sequence it. If you're looking for 'Rioja' it's no use scrolling to 'R'. That doesn't exist. If someone's selling hundreds of bottles it'll be up the top, if there's only one for sale it will be at the bottom.
What did Woolworths say to all the Langtons staff? "You needn't get involved, our IT guys are really good?"
Amazing.
GG

the new site is a PITA.
when the clearance % drops from a presumed 65% to a assumed (based on the cumbersome new site) of 35% I am sure somebody will take notice. Maybe not the 1st closure but subsequent closures will cement the total failure of the "upgrade"

crusty2 wrote:the new site is a PITA.
when the clearance % drops from a presumed 65% to a assumed (based on the cumbersome new site) of 35% I am sure somebody will take notice. Maybe not the 1st closure but subsequent closures will cement the total failure of the "upgrade"

Actually their clearance rates have been averaging around 30% for quite some time now:

AuctionDate Realisation
04-Mar-14 - 26
27-Feb-14 - 21
25-Feb-14 - 17
20-Feb-14 - 58
18-Feb-14 - 41
13-Feb-14 - 11
11-Feb-14 - 32
04-Feb-14 - 31
28-Jan-14 - 27
21-Jan-14 - 41
14-Jan-14 - 24

markg wrote:

crusty2 wrote:the new site is a PITA.
when the clearance % drops from a presumed 65% to a assumed (based on the cumbersome new site) of 35% I am sure somebody will take notice. Maybe not the 1st closure but subsequent closures will cement the total failure of the "upgrade"

Actually their clearance rates have been averaging around 30% for quite some time now:

AuctionDate Realisation
04-Mar-14 - 26
27-Feb-14 - 21
25-Feb-14 - 17
20-Feb-14 - 58
18-Feb-14 - 41
13-Feb-14 - 11
11-Feb-14 - 32
04-Feb-14 - 31
28-Jan-14 - 27
21-Jan-14 - 41
14-Jan-14 - 24

I believe when you look at how Woolies have run this business since its purchase that they are deliberately trying to destroy the secondary auction market in order to maintain their margins on bottles sales through their retail liquor shops. No auction business can survive with realisation rates this low. For the lawyers on the forum, it would be interesting to know whether one could lodge a complaint with the ACCC. Acquiring a major participant in a market sector in order to effectively kill off that sector in order to support another sector might give the ACCC the basis to force a disposal of Langtons by Woolworths.

Would be interesting to know what the clearance rates are for the same periods from other auction houses?

As I hinted at earlier, the actual auctions is just one part of Langtons...

I talked to a winemaker the other day who had wine sold through them via one of their special promotions - with the change of website design they now can't see what stock has been sold, what's left. Imagine that for one of the big corporates who would have many thousands, perhaps millions of stock with Langtons that they now don't have any track of - they would have to be seriously more pissed off than all of us auction vendors & customers put together.

Talk about a major cluster f***

Cheers,
Ian

ads_11 wrote:Would be interesting to know what the clearance rates are for the same periods from other auction houses?

MW and myself between 50% and 60% (there was a time for a while it was around 70%).

Not sure about Oddbins, I haven't been aggregating them since October, must get back on to it at some stage.

Its also about the volume of wine you have on offer and the proportion of it that is in high demand, obviously..

crusty2 wrote:the new site is a PITA.
when the clearance % drops from a presumed 65% to a assumed (based on the cumbersome new site) of 35% I am sure somebody will take notice. Maybe not the 1st closure but subsequent closures will cement the total failure of the "upgrade"

Given that they now require you to have pre-entered your credit card into their database to bid at all, it's possible the clearance rate for the current auction will be in the low single figures!

I did find our how to login. Although my user ID doesn't work anymore, my email addy seems to. That's about 35 characters vs my original 7-digit ID. Sounds about right. I reckon the new site is at least 5 times worse than the old...
GG

I can only guess that the requirement for a card could be related to phantom accounts being used to bid up a lot for your own benefit. Also Langtons being used as cheap climate controlled storage if a lot continually passes in due to a "no sale" possible. This may also lead to low clearances as the "bidder" cannot be made to pay.

crusty2 wrote:I can only guess that the requirement for a card could be related to phantom accounts being used to bid up a lot for your own benefit. Also Langtons being used as cheap climate controlled storage if a lot continually passes in due to a "no sale" possible. This may also lead to low clearances as the "bidder" cannot be made to pay.

A comment about this over at Bert's place which may be another reason why:

MGH wrote:

langtons wrote:To ensure your auction experience is as seamless and secure as possible, we now require a credit card to be saved in your customer account. This will enable you to bid at auction and ensures a streamlined and smooth process from auction close to delivery, and brings Langton’s into line with industry standard and best practice.

This is an unambiguous attempt to improve cash flow and reduce accounts receivable costs - it does nothing to enhance the bidders experience. They debit your card shortly after the auction finishes, and keep the cash for a month before paying out to the vendor.

The statement above is bordering on dishonesty - how keeping credit cards on file is "secure as possible" defies belief.

rooman wrote:I believe when you look at how Woolies have run this business since its purchase that they are deliberately trying to destroy the secondary auction market in order to maintain their margins on bottles sales through their retail liquor shops. No auction business can survive with realisation rates this low. For the lawyers on the forum, it would be interesting to know whether one could lodge a complaint with the ACCC. Acquiring a major participant in a market sector in order to effectively kill off that sector in order to support another sector might give the ACCC the basis to force a disposal of Langtons by Woolworths.

It's really hard to tell whether this is a deliberate action by Woolies, or they are just managing it through sheer incompetence - it would make an interesting argument for the ACCC though if someone had big enough balls and/or deep enough pockets to go into a lengthy legal battle with a corporate giant

Another little gem from over at Bert's place:

Hogshead wrote:

Artist FKAN wrote:Agree it is a major backwards step. And for vendors, once a lot has been passed in a few times they will ship it back to you at your cost. There's no option to pick it up.

Haven't they relocated to Werribee now? Not easy to pick up for many from there. I understand there is a big Woolies facility at that location.

Vendors, Customers and Corporate suppliers will all be seriously pissed off by these changes to their website and policies, I can't see how they cannot suffer a massive backlash. Langtons had what, possibly 70% of the whole Australian secondary auction market? The idea of Woolies deliberately setting out to destroy it? At the moment they are making seem quite plausible, as impossible and frankly foolish as that idea would first appear.

Cheers,
Ian

I agree that the new website settings are hard to use, especially when you want to search for price guide of each wine from the wineries.

I tried to log into the new site the other day. It's been so long since I've had to log in that I'd forgotten my details. did the forgotten password thing, didn't get a response.

The upside is that I don't have to bother with Langtons any more.

mse wrote:I agree that the new website settings are hard to use, especially when you want to search for price guide of each wine from the wineries.

I haven't found this part difficult..you end up getting the winery and each wine but you have to drill down into that specific wine for the different vintages....this can be either better or worse than before.....

But searching in general...I keep tinkering thinking there is something I'm missing but it gets worse the more I use it...

I dont necessarily think Woolies is deliberately trying to kill the auction business.

I mean, lets say Langtons auctions ~$10-15m of wine a year... Woolies sells >$4bn in the retail market. Its just not a competitive threat, its like the equivalent of half a Dan Murphy outlet . But the scale of those numbers gives you the answer - this is just not a big enough part of the business for them to spend much time or effort on. Really all they want from it is access to be able to buy 'used' wine which can be re-purposed as a "Dan Muprhys Cellar Release" with much higher margins in the retail stores... but even then this is only at the extreme edge of shaking out a few extra basis points of gross margin in a biz where you dont make a whole lot on the bulk of what you sell.

sjw_11 wrote:I dont necessarily think Woolies is deliberately trying to kill the auction business.

I mean, lets say Langtons auctions ~$10-15m of wine a year... Woolies sells >$4bn in the retail market. Its just not a competitive threat, its like the equivalent of half a Dan Murphy outlet . But the scale of those numbers gives you the answer - this is just not a big enough part of the business for them to spend much time or effort on. Really all they want from it is access to be able to buy 'used' wine which can be re-purposed as a "Dan Muprhys Cellar Release" with much higher margins in the retail stores... but even then this is only at the extreme edge of shaking out a few extra basis points of gross margin in a biz where you dont make a whole lot on the bulk of what you sell.

Spot on Sam ! I feel sorry for the original staff there, they are professionals having to work in a new environment where they probably get a much reduced say in how things operate. I bet you none of the original Langtons staff wanted to drop Sydney and centralise in Melbourne !