The Auswine Forum

Hi all

I am new to the site, as you may have seen if you saw my post about storage options I am looking at some input for.

Anyhow, I am a long term drinker, beginner collector I would love some thoughts on how people went about starting their collections, good strategies (if that is the right word?) and maybe even a few medium to long term cellaring suggestions.

I have a few premium (2008 grange, 2004 dom perignon) and some intermediate bottles ( stuff like dalwhinnie shiraz, heartland shiraz, torbreck the struie, les tours de Beaumont haut-medoc, M3 Chardonnay, bin 389) that I am going to put away, and a few relatively budget reds under $20 and a few semillions that I want to experiment with ageing.

I am planning on steadily building my collection over the next few years and seeing how it goes, and then once It hits a level that is sustainable, just maintaining it. I am actually hoping to be pretty aggressive and varied in my buying early on. I have in mind a working budget in the $300 to $500 a month range for the collection (on top of my short term drinking expenditure). Is this going to mean it takes an infinity to build up the core of a quality medium to long term cellar?

My premium wine buying in the past has focused on 'safer' premium labels, and predominantly this has been heavier Australian reds which is fine but I will obviously need to branch out and try and stretch my premium buying dollar a little I think.

As a drinker I tend towards being climate or food governed, because I like many styles of wine, so I lean pretty heavily towards reds in winter and whites in summer, but not exclusively so. I like a good light to medium bodied red (hello burgundy/pinot!) anytime, and a good chardonnay/Chablis anytime. I am much more shiraz oriented than cab sauv, though of course a nice cab with a beautiful steak is a think of great joy. I enjoy Riesling and semillion both young and aged. I am also quite partial to other white varietals such as sancerra, viognier and Italian reds.

Anyhow, just thought I would put up a post introducing myself and putting the start of my journey on record and hope to get some input/feedback

Cheers
Scott

P.S I hope this was the correct place for this post.

Hi Scott, welcome to the crew. We aren't really sticklers for where to post things. You sound like you are getting serious about laying down a cellar. One thing I would do differently would have been to not have fallen so deeply at the start and buy what I like best then. My tastes have broadened and, in some cases, have changed. The other issue is that your cellar will mature at a very similar timepoint if it is mostly one style and bought in a similar period. You can always auction however. Something worth thinking about.

cheers

Carl

Scott

Welcome. You are almost in the exact position I was 6-8 years ago. I went for the 150 fridge and guess what, I filled it very quickly on about a $5000 annual budget. I now store professionally off site and realise that unless you have $80k to build a proper cellar at home then store off site. Keep the small fridge for ready to drink wines or mid week quaffers.

Cheers
Mark

My advice - load up on good vintages (eg Barossa 2012/10) and steer clear of the weaker ones. Perhaps grab 2012 Cklare and Eden rieslings while they can still be found - the better ones will keep.

Agree with griff. And would add a few points that I wish I'd known when starting out!

Buy a range of vintages, as Carl said you don;t want everything maturing at a similar time.

Buy a range of styles, varietals and countries, sounds like you're on the right track so far! Maybe get around 3 of each wine, go more if you can spare the space and/or budget.

Buy a range of price points, definitely don't forget a few 'trophy' bottles.

It does take time to build it up, but don't rush. Your tastes will change over time.

As for storage, I agree with Mark. I've got 4 wine fridges (around 50 btls each), and finally enough was enough, went for a small offline storage option ($15 a month for 8 cases, and I can expand as and when needed). If I was starting from scratch, I'd go for one, maybe two fridges around 40-60 bottles each (safer than one big one, and cheaper), and the put the rest in offline storage. I expect to visit my offline stuff no more than once a year, one case in, one case out, wait until the following year. Let's face it, most of it is pretty long term stuff, 5-10 years or way more for some of the semillon, riesling, nebbiolo and cabernets. Aged wine is awesome.

And come to an offline with us sometime!

Welcome Maybs!

It depends on where you are located, but I would dedicate at least some of the monthly budget to trying some older wines from vintage wine stores to see where your tastes lie for aged wines. One mistake I and many other's made when starting out was to assume aged = better, or more specifically, aged to full maturity = better. I have worked out that i prefer a lot of styles aged about 1/2 to 2/3rds what most would consider full maturity - and that's ok. I'd definitely buy a really good Cabernet - a Greenock Creek, or a Wynn's John Riddoch from a good year to see what the fuss is about - they can be some of the most complex and intriguing aged wines we make in Australia.

300-500 a month is a great start if you can afford it, and you can definitely find some cellar-worthy bottles for $20-25 if you know what you are looking for, and it also allows you to 'go long' on some premium bottles some months as well.

Some suggestions I would have for someone starting a cellar:

Semillon - Tyrrell's HVD (can be found around $24 with 4-5 years bottle age), Thomas Wines Braemore ($30 and one of the best around), Tyrrell's Vat 1 (the best of the best, can be found for around $50 with 5 or so years bottle age)

Riesling - Nick O'Leary (sometimes available around $20, fairly new label though, so long term not guaranteed), Rockford Hand Picked (hard to find, but you can order from their website for $25ish), Grosset polish Hill (again, best of the best, will age very well for $50ish)

Shiraz - Collector Marked Tree Red (Cool-climate, with a history of great wines from 2007 to current release for around $25), Tyrrell's 4 Acres (my favourite Hunter shiraz, ages incredibly well, and is so complex and beautiful from about 8 years old, and will likely live decades $60-70), Greenock Creek Alice's / Apricot Block (current releases are around $30-40, great Barossa shiraz for ageing)

Cabernet Sauvignon - Wynn's Black Label (only in good years, weaker vintages are not worth the money at around $35), Rockford Rifle Range ($45ish, and a real bloomer in the cellar - recently opened an 05 that destroyed everything Coonawarra-based at a blind tasting)

I have 100s of suggestions and happy to provide more, but I'm sure many will, and it's about your tastes.

A number of people on here have cellartracker accounts, so you can browse our collections online if you feel like it. Accounts are free to create, and it is a great tool to track what you have, where it is, how much your collection is worth etc. http://www.cellartracker.com - if you set an account up, feel free to add me as a friend, my handle is dan_smee just like on here.

Good luck, and happy hunting!

Some great advice here. I think most of us have all been in a similar situation. From experience I would say..

1) Your tastes will change over time, so don't load up too heavily on one variety/one region/one producer
2) taste, taste and taste some more. go to tasting events to find out what sort of wines you like and are best suited to your palate
3) buy good vintages and wines with somewhat of a track record

Campbell Mattinson wrote a fantastic piece on "How to buy wine for a cellar". I'm unable to cut & paste due to copyright, but you can find this article at www.winefront.com.au - I beleive it's around $45 for an annual subscription.

Great thoughts on here, and fair play for asking the question in the first place. I think everyone who has a cellar has a long list of lessons learned (and generally they can be quite expensive lessons !)
My input would be "be patient". You do not need to buy everything now, there will be another "one off" sale next week, next month, next year. You want quality rather than quantity (although a quantity of quality is very nice ). This advice also has no bearing on starting cellar, it is just as relevant for maintaining one and I think most people on this board have the same problem, you find a wine or see a deal and immediately want to back up the truck, I know I do (2012 Rielsings case in point).
Also be careful of trophy wines, by all means buy them, but remember they are there to drink, often something sits in the cellar so long you become afraid to drink it because you have put so much effort (time) into cellaring it that the occassion is never quite special enough to drink it.
Most important of all though is to have fun. It is a drink after all, and something that to my mind is best shared amongst like minded company.

Thanks for the feedback and input guys. Obviously learning involves making your own mistakes, but a bit of guidance in the right direction, and obvious pitfalls to avoid, can really help.

Good advice about plunging in too hard, I am lucky insofar as I have quite broad tastes and will want to try and build a cellar that reflects many different varieties. Which may also be unlucky because there are sooooo many delicious wines when you are happy to drink 14 different varieties

I have definitely fallen into the trap of buying a case or two of something I liked in the past at a decent price, then drinking it over a relatively short period of time and maybe not losing interest in it, but perhaps starting to feel slightly underwhelmed. Maybe not as much of an issue with wines that are cellared and drunk over time but something I am aware of as a potential issue.

Have joined Cellartracker (thanks for the tip Dan) as I was wondering if I would have to keep my own tedious spreadsheet (I am hopeless with that sort of stuff) and whether I would, in fact, keep it up to date haha. Looks like the site will make it easy and interesting. Now I just have to upload what I have (luckily not too much) and get learning.

Also thanks for a few suggestions there Dan. A few of those are actually wines I really like (the Vat 1 and Polish Hill are two of my favourite whites) so I will have to check out some of your other suggestions. I like the idea of making sure I age some whites as well as reds too, so those are a few great starting points.

Also, I think possibly the best advice is to make sure that special wines never become too special to drink. Great call. Given that a few mates and I polished off 4 bottles of Giaconda Chardonnay over a Chinese lunch one afternoon, hopefully not a trap I will fall into.

maybs wrote:Given that a few mates and I polished off 4 bottles of Giaconda Chardonnay over a Chinese lunch one afternoon, hopefully not a trap I will fall into.

That sounds like a good trap to fall into. Assuming you're not paying / it's someone elses wine

And if you want to get a bit of age into your cellar to start with, you can always check out Langtons to get a few back vintages of some wines to give you a bit of guidance as to what you might like from a cellared wine. Don't bid on the stuff I like

Always remember price is not always indicative of quality. I've had $15 bottles that were better than bottles many times the price (2010 Little Yering Pinot Noir was amazing, if you find some of that vintage buy it immediately IMO). Sometimes the stars align for a certain vineyard and a certain vintage of xxx can turn out amazing.

Also make friends with someone on the Wendouree mailing list like I have.

It's a good point Alex and one I am definitely alive to. I've been drinking wine a while and there is no doubt there is some very good drinking in the sub $25 range (particularly in the Riesling, Chardonnay/Chablis and Shiraz or Shiraz Blends, to my observation), it just tends to be a lot more hit and miss. It also seems to me, and I could be wrong, but a lot of those wines, sub $20 in particular, are made to be more approachable now and to be drunk young (presumably so as to appeal to a broader market), rather than aged for lengthy periods.

I don't know if there is much truth to that and look forward to exploring it more, that is just my impression. As always there will I suppose be exceptions in any event.

Many people have said already but I would re-iterate not going too deep into any particular wine or style too early, and also having patience to try a bunch of wines before you start to collect too much. I have been through a couple of cellar purges due to i) buying too much of the same stuff and selling to raise funds and get more diversity, ii) buying a bunch of wine based on critics reviews without having tasted which I ended up not liking.

As TiggerK mentioned get out to tastings and offlines. Great way to meet other like minded people and learn a lot, both through tasting and discussing.

pc79 wrote:1) Your tastes will change over time, so don't load up too heavily on one variety/one region/one producer
2) taste, taste and taste some more. go to tasting events to find out what sort of wines you like and are best suited to your palate
3) buy good vintages and wines with somewhat of a track record

+1 on these three suggestions. Going to as many tastings as you can might be #1 for me. Finding some mates to try different wines on a regular basis is also a good way to taste lots of different wines, as is visiting different wine regions. Have fun on the journey!