The Auswine Forum

Hi all,

Newbie here...(and I'm no expert with wines)...but I am looking to seek some suggestions of wines for long-term keeping purposes.

Basically what I'm looking for are 2 bottle of wines that match my kids' years of birth, with a view to keep them until their 21st birthday. To be specific, I'm looking for (preferably) a white from 2008 and a red from 2009...and my questions are as follow:

(i) I have heard that white wine are not preferred for long-term keeping purpose...is this correct? (Obviously if this is true then I'm happy to get two REDs for both 2008 & 2009)

(ii) Not quite sure what is the "realistic" budget for these types of "long-term keeping" wines...but I guess I'm happy to fork-out approximately $50 per bottle. Given this budget, wondering will I be able to get something decent? Any suggestions from the forum community will be greatly appreciated...

Many thanks in advances

For whites with the history of being able to be kept for the long-term, why not take a punt on a Hunter Semillion? I think despite the difficult vintage conditions, Semillion might be alright for 2008. Mt Pleasant, Tyrells or Brokenwood?

Domaine Huet has long-living whites if you like the aged Vouvrey style. Or perhaps you can branch off and consider cheaper Sauternes?

You could try Leeuwin Estate Art Series Chardonnay. I read the '82 was still drinking well. Better still, flick them an email and ask them - I'm sure they would love to discuss your quest!

However, expect to pay around $100/bottle but it may well be worth it.

Another tactic would be to search the auction sites and source a twenty yr old wine of your choice to see if it meets your needs. However, auction bought wine isn't always cellared well by vendors and winemaking technique may well have changed in the winery since then (good and bad of course).

Personally I'd email somewhere like Leeuwin, ask your questions and also ask to purchase a bottle of their 1992 so you can sample how it has fared and whether you actually like it! Same for a Hunter Semillon. Or contact Gavin who runs this site and see if he can source 20 yr old bottles for you to try before you she'll out for a wine you don't like in 20 yrs time.

And don't forget Champagne - that may well be your best bet although Aussie sparkling like Arras Late Disgorged 2000 is something else to consider. Try before you buy! Arras late disgorged 08/09 won't be avail for some yes to come and will be pricey.

Oh, and avoid cork if you're buying a couple of bottles.

Penfolds Bin 389 from 2008 would make 21 years and would sell around the $50.
Penfolds Bin 389 from 2009 will NOT make the 21 year mark though.
Not sure how the vintage was, But 2008 D'Arenberg dead arm will likely make 21 years.
Greenock creek reds (not the grenache obviously) are built for some time in the cellar and are a reasonable price.
I think JO had a drinking window for 2008 Saltram Cabernet Sauvignon Mamre Brook up to 2028 (1 year more won't hurt)
The Saltram No1 may make it.
Voyager Estate Cabernet Sauvignon - Merlot should get there.
2008 Wynns Coonawarra Estate Cabernet Sauvignon (Can be got for low $20's) I think JO had to drink to 2028.

I would just add that a lot can go wrong in 20 years so make sure you do some research into how to store wine for the long-haul.. especially if you're buying wine with a cork.

There are many wines that would go the distance in your price range, but I'll let the more experienced make the recommendations on them. If you want to spend a lot more then I would suggest Hensckhe Mount Edelstone. I've drank a couple at 15 or 16 years old and they were wonderful.

One thing to consider though (probably the most important thing), is how you will store them. If you have access to a tempeature controlled cellar, then great. If you don't, then whatever you buy may turn out to be a big disappointment. You really need to keep them in a proper environment or your investment will be quite frankly, wasted. I would also recommend screwcaps as well. It just takes the risk factor of a corked bottle out of the equation. There is nothing worse than opening that special bottle and finding it is corked. And no this is not the start of the Cork vs Screwcap debate!

Another option if you willing to part with a bit more money, is Magnums (hard to find in screwcap though, actually I've not seen one yet). They will age better and you get more wine to drink at the 21st parties! I have purchased a few Magnums for my young fellas 21st (Kalleske, Charles Melton, etc.). You'll have to search for them, but in my opinion, it would be worth the extra investment.

Have fun buying the wines.
Ian

2009 red: Vincent Paris La Geynale Cornas. This is a Syrah from France. It's a beast. It'll easily make it to 30 years plus.
2008 White...stuffed if I know maybe Leo Buring Leonay Riesling ??

I know the following will cost more than your budget, but could be worthy of consideration depensding on your financial situation...

2008 - a (potentially) vintage for the ages in Champagne (not sure if you consider this 'white'). The grand marques wont be released for 4+ years. Decent growers will start to trickle out in 2 years time. I know your preference is for white wine, but Coonawarra also had an excellent 2008. Try labels such as Balnaves The Tally or Wynns John Riddoch.

2009 - this is the year to buy red Bordeaux, though prices have risen dramatically in the last few weeks. Most of the classed growths will see 20+ years with ease.

Mike Hawkins wrote:I know the following will cost more than your budget, but could be worthy of consideration depensding on your financial situation...

2008 - a (potentially) vintage for the ages in Champagne (not sure if you consider this 'white'). The grand marques wont be released for 4+ years. Decent growers will start to trickle out in 2 years time. I know your preference is for white wine, but Coonawarra also had an excellent 2008. Try labels such as Balnaves The Tally or Wynns John Riddoch.

2009 - this is the year to buy red Bordeaux, though prices have risen dramatically in the last few weeks. Most of the classed growths will see 20+ years with ease.

Just out of curiosity, Mike, what were the $ prices of good value '09 Bordeaux before the prices went up ?

Panda 9D wrote:I would just add that a lot can go wrong in 20 years so make sure you do some research into how to store wine for the long-haul.. especially if you're buying wine with a cork.

If storage conditions aren't good what difference does it make whether the wine is under cork or stelvin?

My suggestions for whites are riesling and semillon, for reds why not a Cab/Shiraz, like a Bin 389 or Yalumba Signature.

Cheers.............Mahmoud.

2008 was a horrific year for the Hunter so I wouldn't be betting on them to improve for 20 years. Half the wineries didnt make wines and the other half typically used non-Hunter fruit, if they even used 100% semillon (eg Mt P. Elizabeth). I had an 08 Mcleish Sem that i swear tasted like Verdelho.

However one thing I have learned through grape mates is the absolute fallacy of the myth that white wine does not age well. With dry Aussie rieslings it isn't just possible to age, it is practically a necessity (much as with hunter semillon).

Eg. 2008 Petaluma Riesling - the 1990 and 1986 are some of the best dry whites i have had, and you can pick the recent vintages up for $30-odd.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:

Panda 9D wrote:I would just add that a lot can go wrong in 20 years so make sure you do some research into how to store wine for the long-haul.. especially if you're buying wine with a cork.

If storage conditions aren't good what difference does it make whether the wine is under cork or stelvin?

My suggestions for whites are riesling and semillon, for reds why not a Cab/Shiraz, like a Bin 389 or Yalumba Signature.

Cheers.............Mahmoud.

A cork (over a period of 20 years) requires humidity as well as temperature control. Stelvin just requires temperature control.

I've never read this anywhere... is this an incorrect assumption??

Yes, your're right about temperature and humidity but I would venture to say that over 20 years it is temperature (and fluctuation) that you have to worry about. I've no idea what the humidity in the many basements that my wine has been over the years and I've had very few problems.

I have a few cases of wine sitting at the in-laws in Sydney and its the temperture that is the worry. I would trade any amount of humidity, high or low, for constant cool temperature.

Cheers...............Mahmoud.

Screwcaps don't care either way, but for corks, high humidity is no issue other than some external mould, but low humidity can dry out and shrink the corks thus causing major problems. I think 50% or higher is OK, but ideally above 60%. But as Mahmoud and Panda said, for both cork or screwcap a constant temperature is really important. Some big reds might handle fluctuations better than other wines, but if you want to keep a wine for 20 years, you better not put it in the cupboard, or even a cool part inside the house. A yearly slow fluctuation of 8 up to 18C might work, but over 20 years, I think you'll be wasting your money if you don't keep the temps steady around 13-16C all year. Maybe way under the house with some polystyrene insulation to moderate the temp swings would be OK for some climates, but Qld or even Sydney might be pushing it, especially for the whites.

Maybe get a couple of each, so for 08 whites maybe a Riesling (Petaluma, Grosset or Leo Buring) and a Chardonnay (Bannockburn, Leuuwin Art Series, Tyrrells Vat 47), that way you can compare them and likely find at least one major winner!

Cheers
Tim

Another option could be a good vintage port such as one from Seppeltsfield or Stanton and Killeen which will easily last the distance and cost relatively cheap $.

As TiggerK noted, unless you have a suitable storage space, with the proper temperature in particular, then it would be a waste of money to buy anything to cellar that long.

I don't think it is a complete waste - sure it's not great and you will have a higher failure rate but wine storage fridges have only become affordable to the everyday casual wine drinker in the past 5 or so years.

For the past 30-40 odd years before that most people have been making do with a dark spot under the house or a dark cupboard because they couldn't afford a specialty wine fridge. Sure its far from perfect and there will be a higher rate of heat affected wines, but that was life - some of the best wines I have ever tasted survived that kind of storage for 25 years, in Sydney.

They are going to age far quicker so they have to be very robust and made to handle some serious age.

Another newbie here.

I guess the robust wines to cellar in Sydney would have to include Hunter Valley wines, right?

Hunter Valley Semillons are built to last decades (Vat 1, Lovedale et al). The shirazes are a mixed bag, Halliday has Maurice O'Sheas lasting from 10years to 50 years (current vintage). Brokenwood Graveyard Shiraz would go the distance of 20years. Tyrrells would also be a goer like the Vat 9 or 4 Acres. But you'd have to trust either yourself or a wine critic to pick which ones would go the distance on a vintage by vintage basis.

newworld wrote:Another newbie here.

I guess the robust wines to cellar in Sydney would have to include Hunter Valley wines, right?

If you mean reds, if you have good storage and a good vintage it can be, but I was more thinking of South Australian wines actually.

If you mean from a geographical perspective due to its proximity, Sydney stores are more likely to sell barossa or coonawarra than good hunter shiraz, especially big chain stores owned by Colesworths. If you mean from a bodyweight perspective, I find Hunter Valley shiraz are relatively medium body weight and often less alcohol than big barossas and gutsy coonawarras. Like Pinot I would be a little more careful with their selection, storage and transport if you want to get bottle age.

As far as whites go I think Riesling or Hunter Semillon (as several people have already suggested) is most likely to go the distance. There are many Clare Valley rieslings that may last or Steingarten usually ages well. Likewise there are several Hunter Semillons. I had a '91 Lindemans Hunter Semillon a few weeks ago for my daughter's 21st and it was fantastic.

For a red wine that you want to buy for $50 and age for 20+ years I don't think you could beat Tahbilk in Magnums. The 2008 Cab Sav and Shiraz are currently available for $50 a magnum (2009s are not yet released). Tahbilk estimate that the shiraz has a 15 to 20 year cellaring period and the Cab is 20 years plus. Those estimates are based on bottles, so magnums should live way beyond that. Plus, they are screw capped.

Odyssey. Great answers! I kind of meant all those questions!!!!!!!!!

odyssey wrote:

newworld wrote:Another newbie here.

I guess the robust wines to cellar in Sydney would have to include Hunter Valley wines, right?

If you mean reds, if you have good storage and a good vintage it can be, but I was more thinking of South Australian wines actually.

If you mean from a geographical perspective due to its proximity, Sydney stores are more likely to sell barossa or coonawarra than good hunter shiraz, especially big chain stores owned by Colesworths. If you mean from a bodyweight perspective, I find Hunter Valley shiraz are relatively medium body weight and often less alcohol than big barossas and gutsy coonawarras. Like Pinot I would be a little more careful with their selection, storage and transport if you want to get bottle age.

I don't think Big Barossas are any more cellarworthy than Hunter Shiraz or easier to cellar because of high alcohol. If anything, I think that is something that tends to hurt a Barossa Shiraz...Where their lower acidity and high alcohol a lot of times end up a big mess with age. This is vs. a Hunter Shiraz where the higher acidity and lower alcohol tends to allow the wine to age easily...even the mediocre ones...

I'd actually say that you have a greater chance of ending up with a good 20 year old Hunter than a good 20 year old Barossa....

This isn't to say which is a better wine...or which wine you should pick....

I don't disagree with you, I love aged Hunter Shiraz, but the conversation was in regards to passive Sydney storage conditions and heat-affected wines. I have seen more Hunter Shiraz fall over a whole lot quicker in a 25 degree passive cellar than Barossa Shiraz, thus the application of the word robust in regards to heat-damage.

Not a Pinot expert but I imagine Pinot is similarly fickle in heat? It certainly doesn't travel well, is high acidity, medium bodied and lower alcohol.

I've always thought Hunter Shiraz to be pretty robust as far as 25 degree heat...I don't think the alcohol helps wine in that aspect it might even hurt...I don't think I agree that a Barossa Shiraz will be any more resistant. If their longevity in general is any indication, I'd say the opposite is true. My experiences so far suggest that as well....I've seen enough Barossa just die..where all that is left is alcohol...Definitely wasn't just closed...

I know what you're saying...that a more delicate wine will get killed by heat faster..and for Pinots I'd say that is true (although Aussies make their Pinots like monsters so I'm not really sure about those). I don't really think Hunter Shiraz is more delicate..it just isn't as big...who knows, maybe I've just been lucky...

Oops. Stirred up a hornet nest there

How about Melbourne passive cellaring. I've just knocked a hole in the wall to reveal a virgin void in the centre of my house under the stairs that has been stuck at 20'c every since.

What are the typical passive cellar temperatured people are getting without going underground or using gizmos in Melbourne?

You're enjoying the stirring newworld! All good!

I'd be happy keeping reds at 20C for 5-10 years happily, as long as it was consistent around 20C, and no higher. And it may well be fairly stable in the middle of a house, so nice one. But I wouldn't be comfortable keeping whites for any length of time at that temp.

Another point made a bit earlier but relevant to this thread and worth repeating is that 2008 reds from the Hunter are generally poor. Whites are a mixed bag, but Tyrrells Vat 47 Chardonnay is a good'un.

Say what you like about keeping wines at higher temps, we've all done it and often get away with it. But it will often result in unhappiness years down the track. There's something very comforting about seeing your wines being kept at 14C in a fridge while it's a summer 25-30 in the house, I wouldn't have it any other way.

Cheers
Tim

TiggerK wrote:Say what you like about keeping wines at higher temps, we've all done it and often get away with it. But it will often result in unhappiness years down the track. There's something very comforting about seeing your wines being kept at 14C in a fridge while it's a summer 25-30 in the house, I wouldn't have it any other way.

Too true.

I plan on drinking the wines in the 'cellar' within 2 years. Most wines in the wine fridge are probably going to be consumed within 5 years. I'll test bottles every year or two to see how they are doing. I'd rather drink wine too soon than too late.

As a newbie, I'm not even sure I like aged wines. It's all a big experiment