The Auswine Forum

I am 27 years old. I love a scotch however after a trip to Perth last year I fell in love with the Margaret River reds...

I particularly like the Vasse Felix Cab Sauv, especially 2006 or older..

All that said I am a beginner in this area and I have collected a few bottles of red, i will list them soon but remember some were gifts..

I am wondering if people can help me along to get me going.. As i just got married I am enjoying just chilling with mates over a red wine on a saturday night these days but at the same time money is a little tight!

My first question revolves around storage! I dont want to cook my wine! I am looking at a 24 bottle fridge from Kmart or the like, Dome is one brand i have seen.. are they any good or should i go with option b until i can afford a better fridge.. Option B is a very thick polystyrene box that holds about 20 bottles!

My next question is I want to start buying some bottles to put away for a couple years.. Its not an investment but I would like to be able to pull out a 5-8 year old reasonable bottle of when i want to.. happy to start the process now..

Based on that what should I look at buying to build a great beginner wine collection?

Do wines like Koonunga Hill Shiraz Cab age 'ok' in the short term?

Im hearing good things about Ringbolt? thoughts..

I also love the Wynns reds...

Please offer me any advice you can!

Thanks
Tim

Ah tim, as a fellow tim, I'm with you on your winequest...

A cheap fridge is fine in the short/medium term, but try and get one bigger than you think you need, but either way forget polystyrene unless you can put it safely underground, where are you based?

Just put a thermometer/hygrometer in to confirm the temps are stable at somewhere between 12-18C and if you have any cork closure wines, to check the humidity is 60%+

As for wines, we'd be here all night and bed is calling me.... Tannins and acid structure are the key IMHO (in my humble opinion). Look for established aging wines, Langtons classification is a good start, then go for the cheaper ones on the lists! Most half decent reds will age well for 5-8 years, some vintages/regions/blends obviously much better than others, the ones you mentioned are a solid starting point, as is stuff like Seppelt Chalambar and a lot of Hunter Shiraz. Plus a couple of 'special bottles' will never go amiss...... And don't forget the occasional decent chardonnay, riesling, semillon and champagne, you won't regret it in time!!

I'm sure you'll get some great advice here!!

Cheers
Tim

Work out what you like first before worrying about cellaring. I suggest spending some time trying wines from different regions. Regions are the key in Australia. Crack an understanding and appreciation of that and you'll be on the way towards finding out what are the special wines that you wish to cellar.

You could also consult the thread just down from this one - Best wine under $20

Agree with Andrew - try try and try again.

Learn to understand styles and regions and what they do well - it will give you a general understanding of what to go to as a "safe" option. Have a look at some of the threads here for value wines if you are on a budget. There are some cheap wines that can well and truly go 5-8 years if not longer. Once you have a basic appreciation you can delve into what Tigger has suggested with understanding vintages, blends etc.

You will find that your palate changes over time as well so what may be your "thing" now may change in a few years too.

There is a wealth of knowledge here - get yourself to tastings where you can.

Cellaring will depend on where you are based. If you are in the southern states and coastal you will probably struggle with optimum temperatures in summer but should be ok in winter. Dark, under the house and south facing walls generally will help. Main thing to avoid is wild swings in temperature - a slow increase and decrease in temperature over time is kinder than daily swings of up and down.

Most of all enjoy what you like - reviews of wine can be quite subjective, read reviews from different people find out who your palate aligns with as this can be a good guide for the next wine you tick off the list to try

Hey

A bit from me

1. Dont over invest in a particular style of wine because you love them now. Keep a good even spread. eg. I am still drinking SA Shiraz i bought 15 years ago but don't enjoy them now as much as I did once. buying for a cellar is not as simple as "oh i like that i will buy it for the cellar". I try many wines and see many deals I like but realise that I have too many of that style in the cellar already etc so i don't

2. If you are going to cellar wines (ie for the portion of your cellar you will keep your mits off for a good while), buy vintages/ labels / varieties that actually improve in the cellar! I think I did well here but some people I see just to me have "a collection of wines" not "a cellar". They are a hotch potch of unsuitable wines. Go heavy on bordeaux blends, good shiraz, riesling, good cellar suitable chardonnay. Be picky with Pinot noir, Sparkling, Sauvignon Blanc, Merlot and other varieties that do not have the reputation to cellar as well. Yes still buy some but not as many and drink them earlier

3. Get some cellar staples in there. Whether good vintages of penfolds Bin 389 or Wynns Black Label cab, Te Mata Coleraine, Church Rd reserve (if you are kiwi) etc etc. Fort medium term wines like Te Mata Awatea, or Penfolds Bin 28, Saltrams Mamre Brook

4. Remember there are other countries in the world apart from Australia. Living in Aussie you will obviously have a good portion of local wines, just as I have a good portion of kiwi wines but don't let that be the limit of your cellar. Other countries excel in certain styles of wines make sure you introduce yourself to a few. (however on the other side remaining ignorant about some of them can keep you from becoming poor very quickly!!!). Whether it is a look at Bordeaux, NZ, Italy or whatever. Some are perhaps over expensive but some are not

5. Get out and taste and don't just taste.... invest in tasting wines that are considered benchmarks so you begin to understand the qualities that make up a fine wine. eg for WA - Leeuwin Art Series Chardonnay, Cullen Cabernet, Moss Wood Cab etc etc

6. Invest in Classics over fly by night successes. There is always "a next best thing", always a "must have trophy winner" always a "exclusive cult". Chances are by the time you get around to drinking it after cellaring the world has moved on. Classics endure. This is not to say you don't let your curiousity get the better of you occassionally but let that be the exception not the rule. This will save you some dosh too!

7. Get a Life. By that i mean wine can become an obsession. Keep things relaxed, keep some balance in your life and remember at the end of the day it is just a drink. Have fun!!

You've got some great advice so far.

I have a couple of things to add.

If you're tasting at cellar door and find something you really like, buy two to six bottles if you can. I've lost count of the single bottle purchases I've made from caller door that I kick myself for not having bought more.

Try not to buy more than 6 of any one wine if your storage space is small, or you will end up with very monotonous drinking and become bored with it.

Take note of what you like so you can find it again later and try similar styles & producers.

Have a wine budget and stick to it, especially if you start purchasing from auction houses, it's amazing how quickly you can spend so much.

And lastly, like you already have, use the forums for advice and research, there is a wealth of knowledge on here all you have to do is dig.

Ah.... the start of a slippery slope! Well worth the journey though. Campbell Mattinson published a 10 point article about cellaring wine which I have cut and pasted below. It contains what I consider vital advice for anyone considering setting up a cellar. I hope I have not breached any copyright laws If I have Gav, please delete!

I’ve changed again. I’ve been buying wine to cellar for more than ten years and recently I’ve changed what I want to have in my cellar. It’s not the first time I’ve changed – my cellar has gone through a number of ‘eras’, most of which have ended up costing a lot more cash than they should have. When it comes to cellaring wine, errors in buying strategy are usually costly.

Then again, nothing quite burns money like a fool – and when I started cellaring wine I was definitely foolish. I rushed in and bought up as much wine as I could afford, hoovering up the information in the various wine buying books and then storing the purchases in cool, dark conditions. Despite all the research in many ways my wine buying was out of control, I knew what I was buying, but not what I was doing – I didn’t have a plan. The end result: not only a lot of wasted money, but a lot of wines either gloomily consumed or flogged off at auction at half the price I’d paid for them.

It could have been different – and should have been. Instead of wildly chasing the next great deal, or coveting the next monster red, I should have been thinking further ahead, and thinking of the following:

1. Cellaring does not make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. If a wine is of average quality, or seems wildly unbalanced (for instance, more oak flavour than fruit flavour; too much tannin; too much acid etc) to start with, then the chances are that it’ll still be average (at best), or will remain unbalanced, given ten years in the cellar. If you are cellaring wines to drink, rather than to collect or treat as an ‘investment’, then this should be your number one concern. Almost everyone who starts putting wines away to cellar starts with wines that aren’t quite up to the job – I know that I did – many a cellarer has found themselves five years into the task, only to find that almost all of the wines they bought in the first two years has actually declined in quality. This leads us to the next vital point.

2. The crucial first two years The hardest thing about starting a cellar is the first two or three years. Almost everyone gets these first years wrong. The main problem is: almost everyone tends to buy wines along far too limited lines. The limitations are usually one of: too much of the same style of wine; too much of a single region or producer; or (even more commonly) too much wine bound to mature around the same time (having several hundred bottles all mature at the same time can be a rather sick feeling). This is the hardest point to swallow, but a most important point: it is essential that you cellar wines from a wide variety of styles, price points, regions and likely maturity dates. If you don’t, you’ll get three years down the track and realize that you’re either going to have to start drinking fast, or start over again.

3. Keep your cellar exciting! It’s natural that your cellar will hold a core of wines that basically fall into the category of your “favourite wine style”. Everyone does this – and it’s the right thing to do. Once

you’ve been cellaring for a few years though, and you’ve become accustomed to pulling out mature wines on a regular basis, you’ll probably find that you have an increasing desire to draw on wine “oddities” – wines that will cellar well, but don’t necessarily fit into your normal drinking habits. Most times, when you venture into your cellar, you know exactly what kind of wine you are after. But there are times when you want to be surprised … when you want something different. A selection of oddities keeps your cellar exciting.

4. The international cellar It is essential that, as early as possible, you include in your cellar wines from countries other than those belonging to your core “favourite wine style”. This was a mistake I made – for too long my cellar contained wines only from Australia and New Zealand. There comes a time in most wine lover’s lives when they want to know what else there is in the wine world – it’s part of the in-built joy and fascination of wine. Pop some Chianti Classico, Barbaresco, Chablis or whatever Bordeaux you can afford into your cellar – it doesn’t have to be hugely expensive, or be in vast quantity, but you do need at least something “old world”. (I cannot emphasise this enough).

5. Why are you cellaring wine? Are you a collector or a drinker or someone hoping to make money out of cellaring wine? It makes a huge difference in terms of what you buy to cellar – just about everyone thinks, when they first start buying wines to cellar, that they’re buying wines to drink, but it doesn’t always turn out that way. Cellaring wine can be a kind of self exploration. Most cellarers realize over the years that they buy some wines just because they like having them in their cellar – they like owning them, or they like supporting a winemaker they’ve become loyal to, as much or more than drinking them. It’s possible to have a cellar that’s mostly for drinking but partly simply to satisfy the ‘collector’ gene in you – a lot of wine cellaring is about satisfying our desire to be hunters and gatherers – whatever the case, it can be a huge help in working out your buying decisions if you be honest with yourself from the start: are you a drinker, or a collector, or an ‘investor’, or all three?

6. Do you like aged wine? I have to put my hand up and admit that I was a fair way into cellaring before I had a proper handle on the taste of aged wine – I knew that I liked the idea of aged wine, but I probably couldn’t have said for certain that I liked the taste. This would be especially true of aged white wine. I suspect that I’m not alone – there’s just something seductive about storing wines for the future (in my own case I suspect it was a kind of nesting). The wisest thing to do though, if you’re about to start a cellar, is to firstly buy a variety of aged wines across a variety of maturity levels (say, 15 year old, 10 year old, five year old and three year old wines) and see if you like the taste of aged wine. In many ways, the taste of aged wine is a different taste more than it is a better taste – it’s possible that you won’t like it. Find out from the start (though give yourself a number of bottles before settling on a conclusion: aged wine can be an acquired taste). Buying through wine auction houses is the best way to do this.

7. The real price of the wine you’re cellaring This might seem like heresy, but it can be a good idea to develop a basic knowledge of wine auction prices – even if you never intend to buy or sell any wine at auction. Over time, some wines will be worth more than you paid for them, and some wines will be worth considerably less. The whole idea of setting up a cellar is that you stock it with wines that you want to drink, and if this remains the case, then wine auction prices are irrelevant to you. Most people though find that their tastes change over time. A wine’s potential auction price should not influence your buying decisions in the first place – but a half-eye on auction prices keeps you switched on to the real price of the wine you are buying.

As an aside, it would be fair to say that had more investors in the failed Heritage Fine Wines and Wineorb businesses taken this advice their exposure to the collapse would have been considerably less – despite popular belief, and popular exceptions, most wine does not go up in price over time, and if it does, it’s usually not by much.

8. Balance Balance Balance The best wines are blessed with impeccable balance – and so are the best cellars. A cellar chocka-block full of wines that Robert Parker has given 100 points might be impressive, but it would be a nightmare to drink – if that was all your collection contained. You need (figuratively) light and shade in your collection. You need wine for freezing nights and wine for hot summer days. You need wine for yourself, and wine for friends and lovers. You need wine to cope with the seasons and the nuances of your social circles. A great bottle of wine is usually somehow lesser if consumed alone – so consider who and what you’ll be sharing it with. The more you think of this, the more variety you’ll probably need in your collection.

9. Consider pinot noir When I first started cellaring wine I didn’t like pinot noir at all – I thought it was thin and weak – but after perhaps three years, it had become my favourite variety. This isn’t an unusual change in tastes – many wine drinkers, when they start getting serious about it all, find themselves firstly seeking wines that are more and more concentrated, followed by a gradual trend towards wines with more and more finesse (noting that finesse and concentration are not necessarily mutually exclusive). The problem I faced when “the change” came was that mature pinot was what I most wanted to drink – especially with certain kinds of foods – and yet I hadn’t put any pinot noir in my cellar. I dearly wish I had. And I dearly do advise: pop a few good-quality, ageworthy, pinot noirs into your cellar, even if you’re not sure that you’ll ever like the variety. I wish someone had told me this!

10. You’re the one drinking it … Let me reveal something of myself: when I first started to get a decent cellar together, there were times when I’d scan the bottles I had and imagine what someone would think if they were looking over my shoulder – I guess I wanted them to be impressed. I

wouldn’t have admitted it to myself, but I was trying to build the perfect cellar (within my financial means) to show to someone. This was the root of dozens of buying mistakes. Wine is meant to be a conveyor of joy – and my cellar brought me a whole lot more joy when I stopped this nonsense and concentrated only on wines that I, personally, was really interested in drinking and sharing. The perfect cellar is very often – indeed, perhaps always – an idiosyncratic one. A cellar’s contents should mean the most to the person or the family it belongs to. A person’s cellar is not a public library; it’s an investment in the quality of your own life.

Conclusion

When I was first buying wines to cellar I bought too many wines of the same style, and too many wines that were medium-term agers. I leant towards quantity rather than quality. Everything in life is a reaction to what has immediately come before – when I noticed my mistake, I then swung far the other way, buying a host of long term wines of high quality (and price). I corrected this by adding diversity to my collection, and gradually drank my way through the cheaper wines in my cellar.

There came a time then when my collection was probably half the size of what it had once been – but it was mostly much higher quality stuff. Indeed, where once I could have told you exactly how many bottles I had (because it both mattered to me, and amazed me) for some years now I’ve had no idea at all as to how many bottles I have. I do know, though, what I’m looking forward to drinking!

What’s changed in me recently is that I’ve rediscovered the joy of a good, ten year old, mid-priced Aussie cabernet – and so I’ve been buying the odd small batch. I’m amazed at how well priced they usually are – not much more than I would have expected to pay on their release it often seems. I admit to feeling pretty good about myself when I make these purchases: mostly because I know that I’m buying these wines for me, and my lifestyle, and also because I know that I actually need these wines – I buy them and drink them within a couple of months of purchase. This makes me feel good because I know that I have bought a lot of wines in the past that I didn’t really need – I just couldn’t stop myself from buying. Control isn’t boring; it’s satisfying.

Then again, after years of trying and failing, I also found a bottle of Wendouree that I really, really liked – and I don’t have any Wendouree in my cellar. A good cellar never dies; it must always be tinkered and tailored.

Great advice! Thanks Campbell! As far as I am concerned, points 4 and 9 are most important.

Pinot Noir and Merlot have a reputation for not cellaring well? Maybe you mean Australian Pinot Noir and Merlot...both of which are generally not made very well.

Cellar and Wine Fridge. It depends where you live and how hot/cold it gets (more so for the hot than the cold). Wine is a lot more resilient than people give it credit for...but if you live in QLD and your AC isn't on all the time, you'll probably want something with temperature control. That said, you may find that buying wine that already has age on it is a far better value to you than actually investing in a wine fridge and storing wine in there for years.

If you're just getting into wine...your palate is likely (but might not) change quite a bit..as someone suggested, don't buy a lot of any one wine. I don't think you need to go anymore than 1 or 2 bottles....6 is a lot IMO, a lot if you have a limited budget...a lot if you plan on tasting a lot. If your personality is you'll like drinking the same thing over and over then it might be the best way to go..but in general, until you find out what you like, until you have the budget for a much bigger cellar/collection, it just seems like way too many....A lot of people will like buying 6+ because they want to drink it over time, see how it develops...but I think at this stage you'll be better served spending that money (especially if you're on a limited budget) or different things rather than a lot of one...

To me, the best way to try a bunch of different things are different tasting events they have...It will depend on where you live but probably once a month or every other month there is some type of wine event. Anywhere from 10-60 dollars to attend..but you can try a LOT of different wine. It is faster and cheaper than actually going to a specific region...

Coming back to Cellaring...Definitely find what you like first...You may find you enjoy drinking wine really young....

I was in a similar position to you 3-5 years ago regarding collecting and agree with the advice most are giving. I have a small fridge for my best wines with the rest under the house in polystyrene. I find buying 4 bottles of each wine works best for the majority of wine. The only general exceptions I have are wynns black label and ringbolt cab sav where I buy a case. Ringbolt is a great wine. My cellar is predominantly Shiraz, cab sav, and semillon. Try and buy a wider variety of wines that those as tastes change.

Pinot Noir and Merlot have a reputation for not cellaring well? Maybe you mean Australian Pinot Noir and Merlot...both of which are generally not made very well.

A loose generalisation to critique a loose generalisation. Nice

Of course some Pinot Noir cellars well. Expensive Burgundy and a few labels from other countries considered, but it isn't really the safe realm of the beginner to throw big bucks in those directions. Man I am still confused after 20 years in wine. For me I have had a few good kiwi pinot noirs last close on 10 years (I think of Neudorf, Ata rangi, Escarpment, Dry River) but disappointments are more common than with other varieties from my experience (I think again the same labels!!). From NZ though i would recommend Felton Road as the most reliable pinot label to cellar especially the Cornish Point and Blocks

Merlot. Again mc'massive generalisation. As we all know Ch Petrus, Cheval Blanc (a blend with cab franc) and many other right bank wines from bdx cellar for decades. Haven't found many (or should i say any) Aussie ones i would try though over their cabernet peers though. NZ has a couple that cellar well eg Craggy Sophia, Puriri Hills, Esk Valley Reserve and Terraces but generally all other things equal Cabernet or Cabernet blends in the long term do better. Also these kiwi wines tend to be predominant blends not 100% merlots

Ringbolt is a great wine

Gonna try the 09 Ringbolt MR Cab tonight

Some very good advice from all the people above.
I started with a wine rack, then a small fridge and then professional storage. I live in Qld. It can be 40 C in summer and below 0 in winter in the western suburbs of Brisbane.
The wine rack is long gone, however the fridge is still here and going strong. I currently use the fridge as 'transition storage' between shop and cellar, and cellar and my glass. I often go to the cellar and get a dozen or so that I'll drink over a 6 week period (so I like to keep them at a good temp whilst they await their fate).
I progressed to professional storage when I ran out of fridge space.
I also buy in fours. It is a nice amount to sample over time. On occasion I buy 6-12: like when the supermarkets heavily discount Bin 389 every year. At least 6 of these will hit the cellar. Sometimes I find a good quaffer that will also go well with a little age on it and then I buy 12 and drink over 4-5 years. The Mike Press Cabernet is a good example- ridiculously good value and nice to drink over 5 years or so (the 2005's still have 1-2 years to go).

TiggerK wrote:Look for established aging wines, Langtons classification is a good start, then go for the cheaper ones on the lists!

This is great advice and when I was first getting serious about wine it's how I learnt a lot about Australian wine, styles, regions, and history. Here's the link:

http://www.langtons.com.au/Wine/ClassificationView.aspx

The other positive is that if you cellar these wines, they should mostly hold their value (or sometimes increase) quite well, so that if - sorry, when! - your tastes change, you aren't stuck with a cellar full of wines you no longer want to drink. You can always sell them and hopefully not lose money in doing so.

Also, try to get to any tasting held at local wine retailers. This is a great free way of trying a lot of wine and learning/exploring. Even if it's cheap plonk, have a taste. No matter how good or bad a wine is, everything you taste will help you learn more and develop your palate.

A couple of others have commented on quantities. Don't buy full cases. I don't even buy 6 of anything anymore, unless it's a ripper deal. Buy 2 or 3 of wines you really like. But try to buy single bottles of a wide variety of wines. Keep trying new things. Put a bottle or two of particularly favourite wines in the cellar for later on, but in the meantime don't get bogged down drinking the same wine too many times, because you don't really learn any more from the second, third, forth bottle.

Finally, have fun! This is a great hobby/interest and one that never reaches its peak...you can never get bored as a wine enthusiast because no one...not Parker, not Halliday, etc...can ever drink broadly enough to say that they've experienced all that the world of wine has to offer them. There are always new and exciting experiences to explore.

Craig(NZ) wrote:... keep some balance in your life and remember at the end of the day it is just a drink.

Wash your mouth out, that man.

Bick wrote:

Craig(NZ) wrote:... keep some balance in your life and remember at the end of the day it is just a drink.

Wash your mouth out, that man.

Preferably with a nice Cab Sauv.

Wash your mouth out, that man.

What are you offering me to wash it out with? Stonyridge Larose?

Thanks everyone, some really excellent advice here (for me as well as the OP).

I'm only a couple of years into my wine journey, would reiterate the 'don't buy too much of one wine' statements. I'm finding that there are just so many wines to find and enjoy, that I almost regret buying cases of some wines (even if I like them and it is a big discount).

I also recommend visiting the cellar doors near you (if you are lucky enough to live near or in a wine region), and buying 2 bottles of what you taste and really enjoy (1 and you'll regret not buying more, 6 and you'll get a bit tired of drinking the same wine). I always find it's a special feeling to open a nice bottle of local wine, remembering the winery visit when I bought it.

For storage, a cheap 2 - 4 dozen bottle fridge should suffice, keep a few special bottles at the bottom and rotate the rest of the wine as you drink in the short to medium term.

There is some excellent advice here but I'll add my 2 cents worth on a couple of points

Margaret River reds are a perfectly understandable vice - and they have been very consistent in the West in recent vintages (although I'm not sure about 2011 yet). Don't ignore other regions in WA either, and I've always found some excellent value for money in some of the Coonawarra wines as well.

I'll concur with many of the others here and get out to tastings to work out what styles you like. If something like the good food show rolls around your way that can have a wide range of wines from different regions, as well as some fun classes on specific styles or regions. Regional tastings like the Coonawarra Roadshow that makes it's way around the country in August are a great opportunity to try a range of wines. Depending on where you are, there are likely to be other events around that will allow you to educate yourself

Wine storage - I use managed storage.
This isn't a bad solution if you have small amounts you want to lay down some stuff to age but not so good if want regular access to your wines.
I think I pay $1.80 a month per case, but you pay a fee when you put it in and when you pull it out.
Some advantages to this are
- I can get deliveries sent straight to storage
- What you have in storage is cataloged and accessible through the net
- In moments of weakness, I can't easily access anything i shouldn't be drinking yet. (I wish I had learnt this one earlier)
Disadvantages
- you can only access your wines at certain times (business hours and 9-midday Saturday in my case) and you need to give a day notice.
- cost can add up if you keep adding new cases.

I've got the majority of my wine in offsite managed storage but I also have a wine fridge at home for the stuff that is ready to drink now. I may think about swapping a good portion of my managed storage over to a storage locker as I'm starting to get a large enough collection that the locker is a better cost option.

I could prattle on for ages here, but I really should be doing some work so I'll leave it there.