The Auswine Forum

Well I've finally bitten the bullet and have decided to build a cellar. I've had a good look through some of the older posts here and have picked up quite a few good tips and have also read Tyson's book.

It's going to be functional rather than pretty (pretty just costs too much!), roughly 3mx2.5mx2m (L,H,W) which will give me space for 1000+ bottles. Got a local builder friend sorted who understands the need for insulation + mositure barriers etc. The space will come from partioning off the dining room (thanks to my very understanding wife), so no external walls which will help. Racking is sorted, I've ordered some powder coated stainless steel jobbies.

So onto the vexed question of temperature control, I've discounted a proper refrigeration unit, just too pricey, so am looking at a small standard split system. I'll try the wick / bucket thing to try and keep humidity up, and may look at getting a cheap evap cooler if this doesn't do the job. I'm hoping to to get a reasonably stable 16 degrees, it would be great to get some opinions on;

Is anyone aware of any split systems that actually go down to 16,
Any thoughts on running 24x7 as opposed to using a timer switch,
Has anyone used a sparky to modify the thermostat to get a lower temp (and then used a timer swtich to stop it freezing up)?
Any recommednations as to which units suck the least ammount of moisture (best I have found so far is the small fuji at 1l per hour)
I've heard that non inverters are better, these are getting hard to find - is there a big difference?
Lastly - I've had some recommend getting the waste water pipe from the aircon to be routed into a container in the cellar to help with humidity, but been told by other engineers this will fill over a bucket a day and I'll be forever emptying it - anyone done this?

Appreciate that this has been covered before, but it's been a few months since the last discussion so it would be great to hear if any views have changed, any personal experiences etc.

Cheers - Nick

PS - There will be a couple of large Vintec unuts up for sale in 6 weeks or so if any Brissy forumites are keen

Hi Nick
It would be nice to see some photos of the project's progress. Assuming you have the time to cronicle the build of course.
Rens

Will do, should be a fairly quick job but I'm happy to take photos along the way.

Congrat's on going forward with the cellar. Routing the drain back into the cellar will definitely see you forever emptying buckets and forgetting some, leaving a nice spill to clean up. The drain needs to go outside in the humid climate of Qld. You may not want to right of a refrigeration unit to early, if you know someone in the trade and will just charge you for the install, they can get a Kirby unit a lot cheaper than you or I walking of the street. I spent a lot of time weighing up between the two and ended up spending a little bit extra and putting in a Kirby. Good luck with the project. Cheers Gerry

Thanks Gerry,

I do have a couple of feelers out at the moment to see if I can get a Kirby or soemthing similar at a decent price.

Nick

G'day Nick

Thanks for starting a new thread on this. I have read all the old ones an a few books as well.

I have plans for building under our house and successfully negotiated a dedicated wine storage room (can I call this a cellar if it's above ground?) on the southern side. Internal dimensions will be 3000Lx1650Wx2750H. It will essentially be two walls of wine racks with a narrow walkway between. I was probably just going to go with wooden shelving. I intend to fix a cooling unit (it has an two external walls though both are out of direct sun). If you find a sparky that will do it tell him you know someone else who is looking at doing the same some time in the next six months. My plans are with engineers/council for approval.

If you feel comfortable doing so I would be interested to see what it costs you as it goes along. For example, what was the cost of the wire racking?

Good luck

Michael

Hi Michael,

No problems sharing costs, the racking was always going to be just about the most expensive part and came in at $3648 including delivery. Sounds as though the dimensions are virtually identical, the four racks I have ordered are 2275 high x 1235 wide each has a 264 capacity, so giving me just over a 1000 bottles. I'll pass on the details of whichever sparky I use - in discussion with a few at the moment.

If this isn't enough space I'm going to have to start drinking more - Cheers Nick

Hi Nick,
Do you mind revealing your rack source? I'll be needing to purchase some myself soon.

Not at all - I purchased through Centaur Cellars - http://www.centaurcellars.com.au/ - so far excellent responses, deposit paid and they should arrive in 3-4 weeks.

I'll update with how progress goes, also looks as though I may have manged to find a reasonable price on a proper refrigeration unit - once the deal is confirmed I'll post details.

Cheers - Nick

Nick

I don't know whether you've considered wooden racks but I put together enough of these to put about 700 bottles in them. I bought them from a graysonline auction and they cost about $600 if I remember correctly and then 3 nights work putting them altogether. They're made from pine or maranti (?). I also got a WhisperKool unit from Cellar Solutions in Sydney (2nd hand for $600) which allows you to keep the cellar anywhere from 12 - 24 degrees with no humidity problems, no vibration and have had no trouble with this for over 12 months.

If you're bent on steel racks, think about welding some rio together - I think 3-4000 bucks is a lot of bottles of wine

cheers

Luke

Thanks Luke, I've had a go with DIY wooden racks before and the results looked like a hamster run gone wrong. I'm sure this is a reflection on my abilities rather than the racking itself though, so I figured something prefabbed was the way to go I have asked a few cellar specialists' about cooling gear both new and second hand but nothing that reasonable has popped up yet.

It's amazing the premium some companies put on this sort of thing, they obviously correlate an interest in wine with money and charge whatever pops into their head. I've been quoted up to $30,000 for this little project, that gave me a chuckle if nothing else. I decided to set myself a budget of 10k max, it's currently looking as though it will be under 9k so I'm pretty happy with that. If I was handier, had more free time I could have shaved this a fair bit further.

Nick

I wish ya well with it Nick

If its a work of art you'll love it even more

I have to get down on my hands and knees to get into mine (someday they'll have trouble getting me out!)

With any luck you'll be able to bring the pictures to the next brissie offline

cheers

Luke

I stored my wine a number of years ago but when I got to 70 dozen decided that was too expensive. I got a company called Asta coldrooms out who put in a 16 cubic metre cold room and I orderd a fondis C18 unit to cool it down ( I keep it at 14 degrees and 65% humity). I originally put in steel racking but the person who built them made them too wide, when 10 dozen vat 1 and 47 fell out I decided after the tears to get purpose built wooden racking from cellarwine and had them installed.

Cost: Cold room $6000
Fondis $2800
Racking $2500

Seems alot but the best money I've ever spent.
I'm up to 120 dozen and probably have room for another 60. I find the only thing needed apart from a cellar is an understanding wife who allows me this expensive insanity.

Graham

Well went for the refrigeration unit in the end - just under $3000 installed. Let me know if you want the details Michael, work should start early September and I'm hoping to have everything done by mid September. So hopefully plenty of photo's for the Brisbane offline - and who knows, may have to throw a cellar party as well!

Cheers, Nick

I've been thinking of posting on here for a while but have not actually got there until now, and as this thread is about Brisbane wine cellars I guess it prompted me. I gleaned a lot of info on cellars from this forum to aid in the planning/design of my own, which (along with my new house) is in the middle of construction. I thought I would share it's development to date and provide updates on its progress for anyone who is interested.

It is pretty simple really. I am building a modern 47square single story house at Wellington Point, and after only token resistance managed to convince the wife that we could not build a new house without putting in a cellar (she loves wine as much as I do). The wifes floor plan did not cater for it, so it had to be underground. I purchased a precast 22,000l tank 2.4(w)x4.4(l)x2.6(h) and have dropped it under the slab. I had the top opening custom made to the profile and location I wanted and also had some blockouts installed and conduits placed to allow aircon lines and electricity access.

I am fortunate that a mate is an electrician and has installed a number of regular air cons into cellars locally. He has already bought my unit and assured me it will easily maintain 16c or less. I have not seen it yet, but will advise the details when I do. I understand it is a Fujitsu.

I am looking at hatch and access stair options at present and should have that sorted soon. The opening is centred at one end and the idea is to have central access steps to keep the walls free for racks, probably fold up type to ensure plenty of room to move around. My step father is a gun at stainless and aluminium fabrication and is currenlty making a hyraulic assisted hatch similar to the Gortor ones.

I have 50 odd dozen currently stashed in polystyrene boxes under our weekender property in the border ranges (south of Warwick), but whilst effective it is a painful way to store wine and the plan is to shift that lot in there without racks until the house is completely finished and then think about what I do. However longer term plan is to line it with timber and build proper timber shelving etc over time. Although I am leaning to more of a stone look now as there is no timber anywhere else in the house. I have a 170 bottle wine fridge that fortunately the Architect saw and built a space into the walk-in pantry for. It will work as a good intermediatry between the cellar and the glass, well that is the plan anyway I am also fortunate (again) that my father in law is a builder and cabinet maker and he has promised to help with the fitout - once he finishes the rest of the house! I also have a large felled Red Gum tree on our property that I can mill for the shelving and lining if I go timber.

Welcome to the forum Mark. Great to have another Brisbane based poster. Thanks for the great photos. I think Nick is not far from you. I think he lives bayside too.Can't wait to see how it progresses. I'm so envious.

Very clever. Well done.

Thanks for posting Mark. Just out of interest what was the cost of the tank?

Cheers

Michael

Rens - thanks for the welcome!

Michael - I think the tank was about 7k delivered. Add to that cost of excavation, crane hire (50t crane required), bedding material and stabilised sand backfill. I think overall we got it in the ground ready for slab for under $9k.I expect to have a basic (empty) climate controlled cellar with lid and access steps in for under $12,000. Nicities will be however much I want to spend over that, but of couse don't have to spend much at all and it will still do the job I need.

Cheers

Mark

Obviously with only three photos you cannot show the full sort of detail which is involved. But, did you have to use a lining (ie waterproof membrane) inside the pit before the tank got dropped in? And did you have to install a sump and pump to discharge any water which might get in? The reason I ask this is I have looked at doing similar and these are the issues the engineer suggested we will have to address. (But my situation of moderately reactive soil -clay - and slightly sloping site may be quite different to yours.)

Welcome Mark, great photos - and yes I think we are almost neighbours

Blue Boy wrote:Obviously with only three photos you cannot show the full sort of detail which is involved. But, did you have to use a lining (ie waterproof membrane) inside the pit before the tank got dropped in? And did you have to install a sump and pump to discharge any water which might get in? The reason I ask this is I have looked at doing similar and these are the issues the engineer suggested we will have to address. (But my situation of moderately reactive soil -clay - and slightly sloping site may be quite different to yours.)

I did look at a waterproof membrane, but the tank is actually designed to be used as a water reservior and has dense, very low permeability concrete cast in one mould (except lid). The manufacturer indicated that it is essentially waterproof, however they could not guarantee against some dampness showing on the walls (think of an above ground concrete water tank if you have seen one). I fugured that a bit of dampness won't worry me too much - will hopefully keep humidity up a little. I am also fortunate that the block soil is not very permeable (good old terra rossa), is way above any possible water table and I have covered the excavation with a huge slab of concrete, so any water will have to come from a long way to get to the cellar walls. Accordingly I don't anticipate any moisture problems, and if I did I would have simply coated it with a waterproofing compound before dropping it in.

I am also an Engineer so had the advantage of being able to assess the site myself (and take any blame if things go wrong I guess ). The biggest risk is uplift (tank floating) and if there is any chance of the water table being near the bottom of the cellar or higher or water infiltration around the cellar then there could be significant issues in the cellar "popping" and severely damaging your house slab. I could not see much of a risk in this case, but beefed up the slab over the cellar significantly anyway, just in case. If you have a higher risk situation than mine, it is solvable, but as your engineer has suggested would involve either sumps or drains to prevent water build up around the tank.

If you build a slab and block wall type cellar then you would want to pay a lot more attention to waterproofing it.

By the way - clay soil and a sloping site might actually help more than hinder you. As clay is pretty impermeable, a simple aggie drain from the bottom of the excavation down hill to an outlet below the bottom of the tank will be very effecting in removing any water from around the tank. Mind you that is a pretty deep trench though and a sump might be easier. Just depends on the situation.

Rednick wrote:Welcome Mark, great photos - and yes I think we are almost neighbours

Thanks for the Welcome Nick. Good to hear you are near. If you know Wello at all you should be able to pick the block. Just think the old flower farm behind the main strip.

Good luck with your dining room "upgrade" it sounds more complex than mine! and a harder approval process

Yup, know it well - I'm just off Crossley - and very lucky to have a very understanding better half

Fantastic i must say i would love building cellars for people , eachone unique to the person

Pictures great

Thanks Dazza

Well it's done, my first attempt at posting photo's so here goes, I'll split into several posts to try and keep it cleaner -

The Racks Arrive


Initial Layout


Walls go up and Battons inside


Ceiling done with vapour barrier just showing and starting to insulate the walls

Nice rack

A few outstanding jobs,

Paint the outside of the cellar,
I'll look at moving the racks down a bit this weekend to give room to put another rack under the cooler in the furture (although would put a board on top so the air didn't blow directly onto the bottles),
There is currently a fair bit of temp variation between the bottom and the top of the cellar (top 14 - bottom 10.7) I'm hoping once a get a fair number of bottles in the thermal mass will help ease this and I'll play with temp settings once this is done to find a happy medium
The contractors will put a piece of insulated board in front of the external unit to give better weather protecion (although I'm assured it is fine as is) and also to decrease the noise for our neighbours,
Move wine in