The Auswine Forum

Read an article in one of the daily papers over here suggesting that most Brits do not use the services of a sommelier at a restaurant despite knowing very little about wine. Got me thinking that I tend to use them only once I have narrowed my options on a wine list, rather than selecting my food and then asking for a recommendation (which is probably what I should do).

How about you???

As a Brit myself I can tell you the reason why the services of sommeliers are under-used: it's because there are only two rules for ordering wine in British restaurants. Out with friends? Second cheapest bottle. Out with a lady? Fourth cheapest. The other bottles are only on the list to provide structure around the second and fourth cheapest ones and in fact many restaurants don't actually stock any other wine.

Actually I'd assume that most British people know so little about wine they wouldn't even be able to interact with a sommelier in any useful way.

Speaking for myself, I'm much like you - I tend to narrow down then maybe ask for advice on a shortlist. To be honest properly matching wines is effectively impossible as my wife doesn't eat meat and only drinks red wine, and an occasional rose. We get through a lot of pinot in restaurants, put it that way.

To tell you the truth, I don't use them much either. I'm not sure why...
Is it because chatting to the sommelier at any length is still perceived by many as overt wine-snobbery/wankery especially when out with others not as enthused with wino?
Or is it because my views are tainted by early bad experiences?

Either way, I generally use the sommelier, like Julio, to aid when I have narrowed the field down...

Cheers,

Monghead.

If the guy that put the list together is on then you have a chance of some good advice and better than what you can decide on alone. Otherwise it is a bit of a crapshoot and I don't like to ask their advice and then not follow it. I also feel like I am monopolising their time. You don't keep other waitstaff there at the table and converse with them much.

On the other hand my most recent experience was talking with Nicolai? at Marque last week. Recommended a cheaper wine that I initially was thinking of having. Probably a better match with the food as well. So I really should talk with them...

cheers

Carl

I hear they make a terrific mulch for the vege garden

I tend to agree with Griff. If the sommelier put the list together then I'm more likely to ask for a recommendation. However I have been recommended the most expensive/overpriced bottle on the list many times and that puts me off. It makes me feel like I'm being taken for a ride.
I'm more inclined to as for a recommendation when there is a large 'by the glass' selection. That way if he or she recommends a dud then I'm happy to wear it and make my own decisions from there.
Although I have complained about being treated like I know nothing about wine because I look young..ish I tend to ask an older sommelier for their recommendation over a younger one. Perhaps the kettle needs to stop calling the pot black and live on the edge

I'm like most here too. I'll narrow down my selection and then see ask for their input. Especially if its a wine I'm not as familiar with. Overseas is usually another story.

When I'm travelling, I want to try something local. I'll usually ask the sommelier to suggest something typical of the region that they believe is a good example. Eg, recently in Cape Town and decided to give Pinotage a go. I'd had some in Australia (imported) and thought all examples I had were decidedly average. Strangely enough, I had a few examples in South Africa that were quite nice IMHO.

Make very little use of a sommelier unless I have a specific query or perhaps in the mood to try something entirely unknown. If there is not one wine jumping out at me I might ask a question or two once I have narrowed the field.

To be honest the concept of food and wine matching is not vitally important to me...if the food and the company is great the wine tends to fall into line as well, as long as you stick to some basic principles.

I've had good and bad experiences where the sommelier has been part of the process. The problem is worse when overseas, because I know less about what is on offer.

It is easy for the sommelier to recommend whatever they want to sell. Further, they often have not tasted the wines that they are recommending. It's a question I always ask, and it is surprising how often the answer is no.

I have also sent back wine which is excessively bretty (and I don't mind a bit of it), and had the sommelier tell me "Oh, that's just the way the French make it, it adds complexity, it's very sophisticated".

I've pointed out that the objection is an excessive amount, not that it is there at all, and have mentioned wines that I like which are in that style, only to be flashed a look of total insouciance and boredom.

If anyone in the business knows, do sommelliers work on kickbacks/incentives to sell particular wines from distributors like the Harvey Norman salespeople are to sell say Sony TV's. I'm alway wary of this as a motivating factor of the 'recommendation'.

I can never fathom the pricing structure of wine lists. I was at a restaurant last week and most of the $20 bottles were $60. But the St Henri worth say $80 was only $140 and most of the $30 bottles were around $75. So I can only assume they are banking on max markup on the cheapest bottles since they sell the most of them (Captain Obvious to the rescue I know). So someone with a bit of a knowledge of wine prices can really take advantage of it.

dave vino wrote:If anyone in the business knows, do sommelliers work on kickbacks/incentives to sell particular wines from distributors like the Harvey Norman salespeople are to sell say Sony TV's. I'm alway wary of this as a motivating factor of the 'recommendation'.

I can never fathom the pricing structure of wine lists. I was at a restaurant last week and most of the $20 bottles were $60. But the St Henri worth say $80 was only $140 and most of the $30 bottles were around $75. So I can only assume they are banking on max markup on the cheapest bottles since they sell the most of them (Captain Obvious to the rescue I know). So someone with a bit of a knowledge of wine prices can really take advantage of it.

The percentage mark-up is less, on the other hand, they pay $50 for the St Henri (say; wholesale?) and make $90 on it, where as they pay $12 on the cheap bottle and make $38.

The mark-up certainly provides a good excuse to buy the more expensive wines!

Loztralia wrote:Actually I'd assume that most British people know so little about wine they wouldn't even be able to interact with a sommelier in any useful way.

Loz

I have called the Outrageous Generalisations Police and they are coming to put you away once they have dealt with Matthew Citriglia.

Most of the restaurants I have been to do not have a sommelier (as they are mainly BYO). In the event that I am ordering off the list, I always ask if there is something the person serving me has tried that they think will go with what I am ordering (unless I have already spotted something I have always wanted to try on the list). If they haven't tried the wine themselves, or can't give me a basic description of what it's like, I usually do not accept a recommendation.

By the glass does make the whole processs much less fraught.

Cheers

Michael

At the top end of NYC restaurants, I use them as these guys really know their stuff, and as a wine nerd, it gives me a chance to yap to like-minded people. I will also use guys (girls) who ask what I perceive as sensible questions (varietal preference, age, region, what are you ordering etc etc). But by and large, 'sommeliers' in the US are the guys who have graduated from taking food orders. They know one or two things about Napa, Bordeaux and Burgundy and anything more takes them out of their comfort zone. "Wine 101" doesn't make them an expert.

I have a mate who is a sommelier at Per Se (arguably US's top restaurant) and he does an incredible amount of travel and research/tasting. He's definitely someone I would trust for advice.

Mike

I like Sommeliers to create the list, then bring me the wines that I order from it. If a sommelier can create a good list, with a variety of well chosen wines, at acceptable prices then most of their job is done.

Usually I will discuss the wines with my dining companions, only consulting the sommelier if I have a question.

I find the majority of 'sommeliers' to be glorified waiters and not much help.

dave vino wrote:If anyone in the business knows, do sommelliers work on kickbacks/incentives to sell particular wines from distributors like the Harvey Norman salespeople are to sell say Sony TV's. I'm alway wary of this as a motivating factor of the 'recommendation'.

In my experience they're surprisingly just like real people in many ways, and have reps and wines that they like, and reps and wines that they don't like - and often recommend accordingly. Some think more about profit and margin than others, some work off emotion, and some work best off illicit drugs and strong coffee.

If I'm drinking in a spot that has a reasonable list and turnover I like to ask what they've got open that's not on the regular list and see what pops up.

And my favourite opener for those insouciant brats who don't know a wine fault if it smacked them in the face is something condescending along the lines of..Darl, sweetie, sunshine (choose favourite terminology) - puts them off balance and works every time..

sparky wrote:
some work best off illicit drugs and strong coffee.

Hilarious. I thought that was just the chefs and not the sommeliers.

sparky wrote:

dave vino wrote:If anyone in the business knows, do sommelliers work on kickbacks/incentives to sell particular wines from distributors like the Harvey Norman salespeople are to sell say Sony TV's. I'm alway wary of this as a motivating factor of the 'recommendation'.

In my experience they're surprisingly just like real people in many ways, and have reps and wines that they like, and reps and wines that they don't like - and often recommend accordingly. Some think more about profit and margin than others, some work off emotion, and some work best off illicit drugs and strong coffee.

If I'm drinking in a spot that has a reasonable list and turnover I like to ask what they've got open that's not on the regular list and see what pops up.

And my favourite opener for those insouciant brats who don't know a wine fault if it smacked them in the face is something condescending along the lines of..Darl, sweetie, sunshine (choose favourite terminology) - puts them off balance and works every time..

Next time it happens, I think I'll try the ultimate punishment and make them drink the bottle.

bacchaebabe wrote:

sparky wrote:
some work best off illicit drugs and strong coffee.

Hilarious. I thought that was just the chefs and not the sommeliers.

No, they need baked beans and fags on top of the drugs and coffee.

This thread seems like a bit of a beat-up on sommeliers, a bully thread. As far as I know, there's at least one sommelier who posts here from time to time. It's a job I'd relish if I didn't have the boss telling me how to fraudulently make money for the business at the customer's expense.

OK, I'll take my tongue out of my cheek here.

I have the utmost respect for those that deserve the title, who put thought and care into creating a sympathetic, balanced and interesting winelist, and keep it alive on a daily/weekly basis. I relish the opportunity to chat to those who can present me with something to challenge my palate and teach me something I didn't know.

What I object to is those who take the title without the experience, knowledge or application to the winelist, who have no capacity to inform or service their customers adequately.

I have to say that on both counts I have never met either a sommelier or a crap wine waiter who has 'fraudulently' made money at the customers expense. Restaurants have the right to charge what they want and prices are always on the wine list - you always have the choice of what you want to drink and where you choose to spend your money.

What is 'fraudulent' about that?

sparky wrote:

What is 'fraudulent' about that?

Any wine at least 1.5, twice or more times the rrp?

daz wrote:This thread seems like a bit of a beat-up on sommeliers, a bully thread. As far as I know, there's at least one sommelier who posts here from time to time. It's a job I'd relish if I didn't have the boss telling me how to fraudulently make money for the business at the customer's expense.

Daz,

I think people have a beef (and rightfully so) with Sommeliers who basically know nothing about wine. Sadly, these are in the majority. It's akin to asking someone to perform surgery on you because they once applied a band-aid to their kid's finger.

Mike

daz wrote:

sparky wrote:

What is 'fraudulent' about that?

Any wine at least 1.5, twice or more times the rrp?

No, that's called a business decision. If you don't want to pay it, don't. Buy the wine retail and drink it at home.

Or go BYO.... That's what I do 90% of the time.

I think Sparky is right though Daz, it's not fraudulent. Everyone knows there are big markups in restaurants (they have high costs and low profit margins on food and service) and they don't portray their winelist as close to RRP.

It is still hard, particularly at the lower end of the price scale to fork out $40 for a wine you know you can get for $12-15, but that's life.

Cheers

Michael

sparky wrote:

daz wrote:

sparky wrote:

What is 'fraudulent' about that?

Any wine at least 1.5, twice or more times the rrp?

No, that's called a business decision. If you don't want to pay it, don't. Buy the wine retail and drink it at home.

The only issue I see here is that it is a restaurant (where you go for food), not a bar (where you go for drinks). So I am all for a mark-up of 1.5-2x retail, but when I see 2-4.5x as in many, many sydney restaurants, I get a little upset...

We go to a restaurant to eat good food. I am more than happy to pay any mark-up for the food. However, $90 for the current release Mesh riesling, $70 for the current release Wynns Cab Sav, $190-240 for the current release Moss Wood or Cullens...... come on, let's be serious with ourselves, that is just outrageous profiteering! I would go as far as to say this is criminal!

Not to mention, these restaurants often get the wines for less than we do retail, as there is a certain prestige of a label to be on a wine list.

Anyways, venting steam/spleen...

Monghead.

sparky wrote:

daz wrote:

sparky wrote:

What is 'fraudulent' about that?

Any wine at least 1.5, twice or more times the rrp?

No, that's called a business decision. If you don't want to pay it, don't. Buy the wine retail and drink it at home.

No, when a Sommelier gives you his/her professional opinion. This wine would match your meal etc. But they are pushing wines just because they get higher margin on then it is deceptive and 'fraudulent'.

Financial advisors are required to declare incentives/kickbacks etc.

I don't think it is widespread but does happen.

I am capable of choosing my own wines and I take all recommendations from Sommeliers/Retailers etc. with a grain of salt. Unless I know and trust them.

The comments here seem to be dancing between what constitutes a reasonable wine markup in a restaurant and the value of a sommelier's recommendations from a restaurant's wine list. For the wine markup, I don't mind paying huge markups if the total package (say Vue de Monde) warrants it. I do get irritated by 200%+ markups in places that serve no more than basic club food. Particularly when I know that I can trump their wine lists most of the time. As for sommeliers, you know whether someone knows what they are talking about inside of a couple of sentences. Good ones are gold and can introduce you to wines that your prejudices and experiences probably wouldn't take you to.

Bingo - the good ones are easy to spot, and if they are really good, they will spot your level of wine knowledge very quickly. I'm happy to work with a good sommelier, and if they are really good price doesn't matter so much.

My main gripe with the markup is there is very little done for it. I understand paying $45 for a dish when I know it's taken skill/good produce/experience to create it and I can appreciate the value-adding in it. But a bottle of wine? Ring up wholesaler, 'can I get a case of Pepperjack thanks' yep no worries, that's $15 a bottle, will bring it around tomorrow. Put it in the cool room/basement. Then sell it for $60 a bottle. What are they value adding to the wine? If it's to cover the low margins on the food, how is it that other restaurants can offer byo with a nominal corkage fee? I can understand charging double for it, to cover storage and expenses. But 4 times?

sparky wrote:

daz wrote:

sparky wrote:

What is 'fraudulent' about that?

Any wine at least 1.5, twice or more times the rrp?

No, that's called a business decision. If you don't want to pay it, don't. Buy the wine retail and drink it at home.

A rhetorical statement if ever one was because that is exactly what I do! Don't eat out much. So much for restauranteurs' business decisions Selling an average product at highly-inflated prices? Some Gold Coast realtors have been accused of fraudulent behaviour for doing just that.

Cheers

daz