The Auswine Forum

I bought a 6 pack of 2001 Mount Pleasant Early release Elizabeth semillon when it was released,which was probably in late 01 or early 2002. I think it was a deal with Vintage cellars.
I opened my first one yesterday at lunch, and the outside of the bottle, under the screwcap was covered in crap. Rusty crap! It was on the inside of the screwcap also.
Nothing was inside the bottle, and the wine was terrific.
Go screwcaps! even if they are rusty
Bruce

Brucer wrote:I bought a 6 pack of 2001 Mount Pleasant Early release Elizabeth semillon when it was released,which was probably in late 01 or early 2002. I think it was a deal with Vintage cellars.
I opened my first one yesterday at lunch, and the outside of the bottle, under the screwcap was covered in crap. Rusty crap! It was on the inside of the screwcap also.
Nothing was inside the bottle, and the wine was terrific.
Go screwcaps! even if they are rusty
Bruce

I've heard about probs with Stelvin Lux doing this recently....differing oxide levels in bottles reacting with the lux when it is spun on leaving a residue....what colour was the screwcap?

Its Black.

Out of curiousity, was it stored vertical or lying down?

Been thinking of reconfiguring my fridge to allow a vertical screwcap section.

Brucer wrote:I bought a 6 pack of 2001 Mount Pleasant Early release Elizabeth semillon when it was released,which was probably in late 01 or early 2002. I think it was a deal with Vintage cellars.
I opened my first one yesterday at lunch, and the outside of the bottle, under the screwcap was covered in crap. Rusty crap! It was on the inside of the screwcap also.
Nothing was inside the bottle, and the wine was terrific.
Go screwcaps! even if they are rusty
Bruce

Aluminium doesn't "rust" per se.
I bought a dozen of these, we use them for cooking where the occasional recipe specifies white wine or verjuice. We've gone through over half the case I think, haven't noticed anything like this. Stored on their sides.

They are stored on their side.
Rust is the best way I can describe it.
B

Red Bigot wrote:

Brucer wrote:I bought a 6 pack of 2001 Mount Pleasant Early release Elizabeth semillon when it was released,which was probably in late 01 or early 2002. I think it was a deal with Vintage cellars.
I opened my first one yesterday at lunch, and the outside of the bottle, under the screwcap was covered in crap. Rusty crap! It was on the inside of the screwcap also.
Nothing was inside the bottle, and the wine was terrific.
Go screwcaps! even if they are rusty
Bruce

Aluminium doesn't "rust" per se.
I bought a dozen of these, we use them for cooking where the occasional recipe specifies white wine or verjuice. We've gone through over half the case I think, haven't noticed anything like this. Stored on their sides.

I know life is too short to drink white wine, but isn't this a bit good for cooking? 5 years on, they are great drinking.

(I don't subscribe to the theory that it needs to be a great drinking wine to be good for cooking; the needs are different, and there is a right cheap wine for cooking most dishes.)

orpheus wrote:

Red Bigot wrote:

Brucer wrote:I bought a 6 pack of 2001 Mount Pleasant Early release Elizabeth semillon when it was released,which was probably in late 01 or early 2002. I think it was a deal with Vintage cellars.
I opened my first one yesterday at lunch, and the outside of the bottle, under the screwcap was covered in crap. Rusty crap! It was on the inside of the screwcap also.
Nothing was inside the bottle, and the wine was terrific.
Go screwcaps! even if they are rusty
Bruce

Aluminium doesn't "rust" per se.
I bought a dozen of these, we use them for cooking where the occasional recipe specifies white wine or verjuice. We've gone through over half the case I think, haven't noticed anything like this. Stored on their sides.

I know life is too short to drink white wine, but isn't this a bit good for cooking? 5 years on, they are great drinking.

(I don't subscribe to the theory that it needs to be a great drinking wine to be good for cooking; the needs are different, and there is a right cheap wine for cooking most dishes.)

Yeah, possibly, we also use for cooking the cheap $5-$7 whites I buy from Grays for a few friends who are depraved enough to drink white wine.

So any thoughts on whether screwcaps should be cellared standing up or laying down?

AndrewCowley wrote:So any thoughts on whether screwcaps should be cellared standing up or laying down?

It doesn't matter with screwcaps - the reason for storing (cork-sealed) bottles on the side is to prevent the cork from drying out, jeopardising the effectivness of the seal.

My wine coolers are designed for sideways storage of cork-sealed bottles. The main advantage, I think, is that there's less space needed regardless of whether the seal is cork or screwcap; another is ease of access. A benefit I can see of storing screwcapped bottles upright is that any crust/sediment collects in the bottom of the bottle rather than on the side - no need to stand bottles upright for a couple of days for the crust to settle to the bottom and no deposits along the inside of the bottle.

Cheers

daz

Is there any possibility (heard the occasional suggestion) that over long periods of time the alcohol and acid in the wine could degrade the white seal (or whatever it is) underneath the cap and therefore upright might be preferable?

The white seal is called a wad (Saranex) and is made up of different types of plastics. Should be fine for wine up to 5 years. For wines which you want to cellar longer, the winery should have used a tin-saran (silver) wadding. These should be fine for up to 10 years.

The "rust" is probably wine caught between the metal closure and glass, which oxidized. Most bottling lines, spillage of wine on the outside of the bottle is possible and over time, that little bit of wine could start looking very suspect.

Metal closures seals the bottle on the rim of the glass, not the side-wall, therefor cellaring your wine on its side should have not effect.

And yes, metal closures are all made out of Aluminium and it does not rust.

Very informative, thanks! Great to be well informed, can never get enough information.

Wilma wrote:The white seal is called a wad (Saranex) and is made up of different types of plastics. Should be fine for wine up to 5 years. For wines which you want to cellar longer, the winery should have used a tin-saran (silver) wadding. These should be fine for up to 10 years.

I'm surprised at those estimates, 10 years is quite short considering there are plenty of longer term wines now under screwcap. What would be used for 20 year wines?

Directly tying that information to the previous question, if you expect to keep your wines longer then would it be fair to reason that upright storage may reduce contact and prolong the lifespan of the seal? Or would it degrade regardless of contact?

Cheers

I am looking at the screwcap from the 01 Elizabeth, and it looks like the seal has various layers on the inside of the top of the cap.

There is a clear gladwrap type layer first, followed by a thin alfoil type layer, then a light brown spongy layer, then a white layer of some similar material to the brown layer

I would have thought these things were designed to last more then 10 years.

I am bit puzzled now. Never heard this claim about life span of the screww cap, I thought they would never loose the integrity of the seal. I have heaps of wines under screw cap that I plan to cellar more than 10 years !?!?!
I would be very upset if the seal in them gives up. Can anybody justify this claim?

Hi UFO and Rooman, don't stress about it! We don't worry about what would happen if the glass wore out.

THe screwcap won't wear out, not before the wine does. That's my prediction anyway.

ufo wrote:I am bit puzzled now. Never heard this claim about life span of the screww cap, I thought they would never loose the integrity of the seal. I have heaps of wines under screw cap that I plan to cellar more than 10 years !?!?!
I would be very upset if the seal in them gives up. Can anybody justify this claim?

If the bottling line is correctly calibrated, the wadding in the cap will be compressed to the correct torque level to ensure the longevity of the seal. Perhaps you should buy only cork-sealed wines if you're so worried about stelvin seals losing integrity over 10+ years. You're welcome to play cork roulette!

Anyway, there have been plenty of reports on the fora of some early trials of stelvin seals by Yalumba(?) of a riesling(?) that after about 20 years or so cellaring, resulted in a high quality wine that showed nothing more than it's years of gradual ageing.

Others here could possibly comment on their tasting of wines from those early trials.

Relax!

daz

orpheus wrote:Hi UFO and Rooman, don't stress about it! We don't worry about what would happen if the glass wore out.

THe screwcap won't wear out, not before the wine does. That's my prediction anyway.

The wadding will last for much longer than the 10 years I mentioned earlier. The metal closure companies says that tin-saran wadding should be used for wine you want to cellar longer than 5 years. It is not the life-span of the closure, but how long the wine will be protected correctly. The integrity of a closure is influenced not only by Production processes and specifications, but also cellaring at the customer.
It is like using a Flor or Extra quality cork vs a Super or 1st grade cork.

At the end of the day, the closure only forms a small part of protecting the wine. Wine making style, cellaring at the winery and bottling procedures all have a huge influence.....not to mention handling after the wine has been bottled.

I thought that the Elizabeth Semillon was released with several years of bottle age. From what I recall of my trip to Australia in 2001 the Elizabeths on sale at the time was the 1996. It had a cork seal. Then, on my next visit to Australia in 2006/2007 the Elizabet Semillon on sale in Vintage Cellars and other retailers was the 2001, also under cork, and an ''early release" 2002, again under cork. I can't recall seeing any Elizabeth Semillons under screwcaps. I also seem to recall that some Auswine posters were saying that they wouldn't buy any Mount Pleasant Elizabeths until they were sealed under screwcaps. Brucer, are you sure that the 2001 you're talking about are early release bottles and not museum relaeases?

From what I know I'm almost certain that screwcaps will last 20 years or more. I can't remember who did the early tests of screwcaps but wasn't it Heggies (Edit: or Pewsey Vale) who first released a museum riesling? Back in 2001 I recall seeing some 1996 Heggies (or Pewsey Vale) Museum Release Riesling and I was under the impression that the commercial release of this screwcap riesling was something of a first.

Anyway, I don't think that producers of tradionally long-lived wines would seal wines in screwcaps if they only lasted 10 years.

Cheers................Mahmoud.

(Edit: The 2001 Elizabeth was delicious, drinking very well in 2006/07, and quite ripe for a Hunter Semillon at 11 or 11.5% alcohol, while the 2002 was very austere, a cellaring style wine and only 10.5% alcohol).

daz wrote:

ufo wrote:I am bit puzzled now. Never heard this claim about life span of the screww cap, I thought they would never loose the integrity of the seal. I have heaps of wines under screw cap that I plan to cellar more than 10 years !?!?!
I would be very upset if the seal in them gives up. Can anybody justify this claim?

If the bottling line is correctly calibrated, the wadding in the cap will be compressed to the correct torque level to ensure the longevity of the seal. Perhaps you should buy only cork-sealed wines if you're so worried about stelvin seals losing integrity over 10+ years. You're welcome to play cork roulette!

Anyway, there have been plenty of reports on the fora of some early trials of stelvin seals by Yalumba(?) of a riesling(?) that after about 20 years or so cellaring, resulted in a high quality wine that showed nothing more than it's years of gradual ageing.

Others here could possibly comment on their tasting of wines from those early trials.

Relax!

daz

Daz


If the seal in the screw cap has a limited life expectancy, it doesn't matter how correctly the screw-capping process is done. It would fail if it has a limited life expectancy due to technical reasons or whatever the reason is.
You don't need to tell me to go and play the cork roulette. I quit that long time ago but always assumed that the screw cap would last much longer than 5-10 years by hearing stories of some Yalumba wines (and some other wines that I can’t remember now) lasting more than 20 years just like you mentioned. Now it totally comes as a surprise to find out that screw cap has a very limited life due to technical or chemical reasons.
So I really would like to know if there is such a limitation. If there is such limitation, it should be disclosed. I have over 300 bottles of wine under screw cap that I plan to keep more than 5 years, in same case definitely more than 10 years. If the screw cap on these bottles quit on me I would be very p…d off.

I think the car warranty was an apt analogy. 10 years is the warranty for screwcap but may last longer. The 10 year warranty on screwcaps itself is intriguing. Can you claim if the wine oxidises in under 10 years?

cheers

Carl

Mahmoud,

Mount Pleasant did a small bottling of 2001 Elizabeth under screwcap for Vintage Cellars, and called it......"Early Release Elizabeth". I bought 6, and still have 5 in the cellar. They usually release Elizabeth at 5 years, and this was a special bottling.

cheers
Bruce

Thanks for the information Brucer, I stand corrected. As I said I really liked the '01 Elizabeth back in 2006/07 and am really glad that it is still doing well. There are a few bottles waiting for me in Sydney. The 1996s are still in the cellar, under cork, and were still looking good judging by their colour.

Interesting all this talk concerning the lack of longevity of screwcaps. When I speculated that the 2005 Amon Ra and Carnival of Love wouldn't last 10 years I didn' know how right I was!

Cheers..................Mahmoud.

I opened another bottle yesterday, and the screwcap was "rusted", similar to the previous bottle.

Brucer wrote:I opened another bottle yesterday, and the screwcap was "rusted", similar to the previous bottle.

Perhaps 'tis time to contact the winery and discuss the issue - or consider provenance/storage.

Cheers

daz

daz
I sent McWilliams an email before my original post. No reply!
B

Just noticed I had a partly used bottle of the 2001 Elizabeth in the fridge. I checked under the cap and found....
...some red-brown gunk around the inside of cap and on the outside top of the bottle. It looks to me like there was a bit of splash during bottling and a little of the wine ran down the outside of the neck and was trapped under the screwcap when it was applied. So the red-brown gunk may simply be a little dried/oxidised wine from bottling, not leakage and of no great concern.

What! You have got WHITE wine in the fridge!
What did that Hunter trip do to you?

Brucer wrote:What! You have got WHITE wine in the fridge!
What did that Hunter trip do to you?

Calm down, used for cooking only!
I gave the guy at Tyrrells an opening and next thing he had poured 3 vintages of Vat 1 and 2 of Vat 47, despite my Red Bigot polo shirt too! To be fair, he did open a few extra reds for us too...
It was a great relief to have a big range of wines that were not one or more of bretty, reductive, green, searingly acidic, sour, volatile, overly extracted/tannic, over-oaked... And that's not including those served up corked or open too long and volatile...
And don't let me get started on the over-priced food!
Luckily we did find some very good reds at a few places, just enough to stop us giving up and going for beer instead.