The Auswine Forum

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2004 11:36 am**

I am a long time lurker of this board and others and it seems the forum culture in Australia is suffereing at present. Where is everyone? Not just here but I notice Winepros is also not worth visiting. With all respect due to those that post here, it at times resembles a spam board and the opportunity for regulars to push their own web sites and auction houses down the throat of others. Does this not worry Auswine?

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2004 11:52 am**

Lee,
Serious question: So why don't some of you long term lurkers contribute occasionally instead of just complaining?

I assume MarkG has Gavin's blessing, otherwise a few of his posts wouldn't have lasted long, Ric's site and my few pages are both completely non-commercial and non-competitive with Auswine, so you can't call that Spam in the usual sense, you have a choice to follow any links or not. Who else does that leave?

Cheers
Brian

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2004 12:34 pm**

Anonymous wrote:Lee,
Serious question: So why don't some of you long term lurkers contribute occasionally instead of just complaining?

I assume MarkG has Gavin's blessing, otherwise a few of his posts wouldn't have lasted long, Ric's site and my few pages are both completely non-commercial and non-competitive with Auswine, so you can't call that Spam in the usual sense, you have a choice to follow any links or not. Who else does that leave?

Cheers
Brian

Agreed!!!!

Regards,
simm

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2004 12:35 pm**

I must say, I think Lee's criticism is somewhat unfounded in regard to Auswine, although I have wondered lately if some of the tasting notes MarkG has posted, have been for wines he's been auctioning (if I'm off the mark, I apologise in advance). I find the Auswine forum to be a very active forum with much interesting discussion about a wide array of things to do with wine.

As far as winepros is concerned, well I gave up on them ages ago, although I think whoever was left to run it, left the building a long time before I gave up on them!

If you are comparing these forums to the Mark Squires/Robert Parker one, I agree it is much more active, but I don't particularly enjoy the sycophantic, idolation for "Bob", that seems to dominate the tone. :roll:

Just MHO,
lantana

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2004 1:14 pm**

lantana wrote:..I have wondered lately if some of the tasting notes MarkG has posted, have been for wines he's been auctioning (if I'm off the mark, I apologise in advance).
lantana

I have posted approx. 16 tasting notes over the past 3 weeks (plus I have about 10 more in note form that I have yet to write up), all of these wines were tasted over the past 4 weeks at a variety of social occasions or over dinner at home. Only 2 of those tasting notes were applicable to wines available on the auction.

Apologies for the DID YOU KNOW posts, I probably shouldn't have posted them and asked Gavin to withdraw them shortly afterward - It won't happen again.

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2004 1:16 pm**

Hello

Some initial comments.

There is very little spam on this board I feel.

Markg is a freind, but I thought his posts were a little overt, discussed it by pm, and he agreed with me and so I deleted them.

As regards traffic, we have, like all boards it seems, a few who post a lot, a lot who post a little, and many many who never post at all, the 'lurkers' as they are sometimes knowm.

As the board moderator I have stats and at any given time there are almost always more 'guests' than registered members, that is, more visiting, than posting and involving themselves.

This is very regrettable, but human nature I feel. If each of those people would post once or twice a week only, think how busy and chatty the board would be.

Everyone who does not post regularly, think about it. It doesn't take much to respond to say a tasting note saying, I agree, I disagree, good note, I'd love to try it etc?

If someone takes the time to type and post a tasting note I feel it is nice if people respond in some way, often a tasting note is read 100 times and no one says anything.

Lurker's, post a question perhaps, many very experienced and helpful people on this board happy to help. Post an opinion, start a gentle disagreement with someone ....

Any board is only as active and therefore useful, as its members and guests make it. I provide the board and the bandwidth, but would feel out of place if I was doing most of the responding all the time.

My initial thoughts ... 'lurker's' what do you think?

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2004 1:52 pm**

Lantana

The U.S. has a very large population and can support several boards as a result - unlike us unfortunately.

What about some of the drivel posted on them though - an insight into the U.S psyche me thinks.

regards
Chris

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2004 2:18 pm**

Gavin Trott wrote:Post an opinion, start a gentle disagreement with someone ....

I want to start an arguement with someone!

What about... hmmm... growing Sauvignon Blanc in Australia is pointless, producing rubbish wines, and hence all such vines should be ripped out and their rootstock replanted to either Jurancon or Vermentinu.

That should get the crowds back!

Adair

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2004 2:21 pm**

Adair wrote:
Gavin Trott wrote:Post an opinion, start a gentle disagreement with someone ....

I want to start an arguement with someone!

What about... hmmm... growing Sauvignon Blanc in Australia is pointless, producing rubbish wines, and hence all such vines should be ripped out and their rootstock replanted to either Jurancon or Vermentinu.

That should get the crowds back!

Adair

I reckon your photo on that other post has killed about 30 people so far with a heart attack. Choked on my Froot Loops myself!
GW

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2004 3:23 pm**

Gary W wrote:
Adair wrote:
Gavin Trott wrote:Post an opinion, start a gentle disagreement with someone ....

I want to start an arguement with someone!

What about... hmmm... growing Sauvignon Blanc in Australia is pointless, producing rubbish wines, and hence all such vines should be ripped out and their rootstock replanted to either Jurancon or Vermentinu.

That should get the crowds back!

Adair

I reckon your photo on that other post has killed about 30 people so far with a heart attack. Choked on my Froot Loops myself!
GW

Gary, ghh, hnn, ahch....
I'm still breathing and the doctor says I can have the oxygen off by 5pm. :lol:

My photo wouldn't make it onto the board.

Gavin,

Agreed!!! (Just building up browny pointsby helping make the forum look more active!) :wink:

No sorry, hang on...

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2004 3:24 pm**

I agree!! (that's better!) :lol:

Have a great weekend all,

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2004 6:48 pm**

Gavin Trott wrote:Hello

There is very little spam on this board I feel.

since you've asked for an opinion, I agree with previous poster re free-advertising for member' wine websites. People turn to forums for independant, unbiased discussions with hopefully no hidden agendas.
When posts pop up with links to other websites then the independance of the forum is then compromised.
When there are hints of fake TNs written to boost auction sales or commercial producer's sales, then all credibility for the the forum disapears, posters leave, and all you have left playing in the forum are all those with "vested interests".
A bit like a networking meeting !
I am not suggesting this has happened to Auswine however recent posts would indicate this may be starting.

My initial thoughts ... 'lurker's' what do you think?

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2004 7:16 pm**

Hi Lee

I felt the board chugging along at a good rate of knots.

Some new contibutors-Chickpea etc-with a broad range of notes.

What have you been buying lately?

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2004 7:27 pm**

longtime lurker wrote:since you've asked for an opinion, I agree with previous poster re free-advertising for member' wine websites. People turn to forums for independant, unbiased discussions with hopefully no hidden agendas.
When posts pop up with links to other websites then the independance of the forum is then compromised.
When there are hints of fake TNs written to boost auction sales or commercial producer's sales, then all credibility for the the forum disapears, posters leave, and all you have left playing in the forum are all those with "vested interests".
A bit like a networking meeting !
I am not suggesting this has happened to Auswine however recent posts would indicate this may be starting.

Dear LL,
Thanks for posting, but I don't agree with your statements/assertions.

1. Have you ever met an unbiased human? I don't think I have. If you mean 'hidden commercial agendas', I think you'll struggle to find any here, egos and personal agendas may abound, but Gav zaps the commercial ones and some of the others when they get out of hand. :-)

2. I don't follow you assertion that having links to other sites compromises the independence of this forum - this is the Internet after all, you choose where you go and what you read and post, Gavin chooses what is allowable and what's not, he has an obvious commercial agenda, unless you've not noticed this forum is associated with an internet wine shop. If you've lurked for a long time you should have worked out who is a source of information useful to you and who is not, that's the nature of the beast.

3. I didn't see any hints of 'fake' TN, although vested interests were certainly raised and I believe quickly clarified.

4. Re Networking meeting, see 2, this is the Internet, it's networked, that's why it is so powerful.

5. Would you rather Gavin ban or delete any posts that refer to or link to other forums or sites? I don't think that's a viable option.

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2004 7:40 pm**

Well said. Brian

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2004 11:15 pm**

longtime lurker wrote:
Gavin Trott wrote:Hello

There is very little spam on this board I feel.

since you've asked for an opinion, I agree with previous poster re free-advertising for member' wine websites. People turn to forums for independant, unbiased discussions with hopefully no hidden agendas.
When posts pop up with links to other websites then the independance of the forum is then compromised.
When there are hints of fake TNs written to boost auction sales or commercial producer's sales, then all credibility for the the forum disapears, posters leave, and all you have left playing in the forum are all those with "vested interests".
A bit like a networking meeting !
I am not suggesting this has happened to Auswine however recent posts would indicate this may be starting.

My initial thoughts ... 'lurker's' what do you think?

Sorry, how can you respect the opinion of somebody who doesn't even name themselves. Its all very brave to be critical because you havn't logged in. I notice that the one who started this as well as another who continued this theme is anonyomous - How handy - for all we know you could have a hidden agenda and have something against Gavin or the others who you are trying to slur - How about logging on with your real name and stop being a coward !

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2004 11:20 pm**

Anonymous wrote:
Sorry, how can you respect the opinion of somebody who doesn't even name themselves. Its all very brave to be critical because you havn't logged in. I notice that the one who started this as well as another who continued this theme is anonyomous - How handy - for all we know you could have a hidden agenda and have something against Gavin or the others who you are trying to slur - How about logging on with your real name and stop being a coward !

Thanks Pot.

Posted: **Sat Feb 07, 2004 12:23 am**

Been a big week so I’m staying in tonight and have the time to be long-winded.

A few comments before the flame-throwers hit!

Firstly, there’s bugger-all spam here. Virtually none.

Second, I personally don’t care if people log in or not. Everyone’s opinion is valid – as Brian says, that’s the internet – the biggest network there is. This discussion was held on another forum too. The internet is freedom of speech for everyone. If some people don’t want to create a forum ‘identity’ then I’m not bothered. It doesn’t make their opinion any less valid. Its probably better to speak your mind or tell it like it is behind a Guest faÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â§ade instead of not saying anything at all!

Sometimes opinions are a little strong as has been seen here recently. In relation to subjective/opinionated criticism of wine, I posed a question on Winestar that nobody answered at the time – along the lines of ‘would you be inclined to call a producer’s wine “crap” if the winemaker was joining in the debate, or would you temper your language?’

I agree with Kris about the fierce debates being the most enjoyable. As long as everyone understands that it is simply opinions being expressed, whether a name-tag is used or not.

Thirdly, I haven’t paid too much attention to the auction issue (again, I’m not bothered), but I can understand others being upset about it. I vaguely remember a few posts that belonged in a banner at the top of the screen instead of as opinions in the forum. In the end its Gavin’s forum, and you will all choose whether to support this subtle advertising or not.

Next, I kinda like a little privacy on the forum. I don’t believe you need a full CV in the Profile area to ensure your opinion is accepted or more highly valued. I’ve been here for quite a few years now and I don’t think many know which brands I’ve represented or owned in that time (except when Davo outed me!). Suits me fine –can’t be accused of anything! AND I can view honest criticism of wines I have been involved with.

Lastly, it does appear as though on occasion some people take it all a little too seriously. Its supposed to be fun.

Anyway, I'm having fun!

Posted: **Sat Feb 07, 2004 6:04 am**

Lee

I do agree with some of your comments,but the forum is just that a forum. It is a consistantly changing thing. I do miss some of the old contributers, but I guess Ged is studying,Marty E is still finishing his house,Celia,Fred,el at are all busy,and there seems to have been a break away group to the new forum.
I am guilty of not logging on most of the time,but I do enjoy the bannter,the tasting notes and most of the new faces.

Anyways I off to restock the frezzer with coral trout and red emperor,And in the interests of sience,I will research the effects of travel shock :lol:

Davo mabey you can do a paper under some sort of goverment grant.
:lol:

Enjoy and taste plenty

Peterk

Posted: **Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:29 pm**

I post regularly because I feel it's important.
I have about 10 notes ready to go but it's rather sad that many people are not posting anymore and I'm sure you guys don't want to see my name and avatar all the time, so even myself are on hold now.
Cheers,
Attila

Posted: **Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:44 pm**

Let's get in a more positive frame of mind guys. I think there are some great people who post and participate in the forum. If people want to lurk, good luck to them, you can't hold that against people who maybe just want to read people's thoughts.

What I'd like to see more is Tasting Notes during the week. We all throw a few lines together after Sunday without discussing in length the wines we have drunk.

The forum has introduced me to a lot of people I would now call my 'friends'. Whilst the people contributing on the forum might be different to 3 or 4 years ago, I can honestly say that I get more out of it now than when I first stumbled across it a few years ago. I also love a bit of debate, the Penfolds 389 thread was great, nothing like differences in opinion. At the end of the day, it is peoples opinion that matters the most. (Even though I think Red Bigot, has a personal grudge against the wine.) :wink:

Just kidding Brian!!

cheers
anthony

Posted: **Sat Feb 07, 2004 10:47 pm**

peterk wrote:Lee

Anyways I off to restock the frezzer with coral trout and red emperor,And in the interests of sience,I will research the effects of travel shock
Davo mabey you can do a paper under some sort of goverment grant.

Enjoy and taste plenty

Peterk

What's a frezzer? :wink:

Don't you hate it when you double hit the wrong key?

At least the "insider clubiness" that exists on other forums doesn't, on this forum, in any way approach being a public email cabal, dominated by a few, who largely communicate through the forum to plan personal vinous encounters and generally rag each other. Regardless of declarations of independence of palate and opinions, the main subject/s can seem to be the wines supplied f.o.c. for tasting, focussing discussions on those wines. Such approaches to discussions of wine seem to me to be most limiting and rather more concerned with the promotion of the products for sale than encouraging broader-based opinions. :roll:

I place a lot more faith in Halliday's opinions, hasn't failed me yet.

Just a thought; Gavin, if you want to set up an AusPanel, can I be on it? :idea:

Cheers

daz

Posted: **Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:47 pm**

Red Bigot wrote:
longtime lurker wrote:since you've asked for an opinion, I agree with previous poster re free-advertising for member' wine websites. People turn to forums for independant, unbiased discussions with hopefully no hidden agendas.
When posts pop up with links to other websites then the independance of the forum is then compromised.
When there are hints of fake TNs written to boost auction sales or commercial producer's sales, then all credibility for the the forum disapears, posters leave, and all you have left playing in the forum are all those with "vested interests".
A bit like a networking meeting !
I am not suggesting this has happened to Auswine however recent posts would indicate this may be starting.

Dear LL,
Thanks for posting, but I don't agree with your statements/assertions.

1. Have you ever met an unbiased human? I don't think I have. If you mean 'hidden commercial agendas', I think you'll struggle to find any here, egos and personal agendas may abound, but Gav zaps the commercial ones and some of the others when they get out of hand.

2. I don't follow you assertion that having links to other sites compromises the independence of this forum - this is the Internet after all, you choose where you go and what you read and post, Gavin chooses what is allowable and what's not, he has an obvious commercial agenda, unless you've not noticed this forum is associated with an internet wine shop. If you've lurked for a long time you should have worked out who is a source of information useful to you and who is not, that's the nature of the beast.

3. I didn't see any hints of 'fake' TN, although vested interests were certainly raised and I believe quickly clarified.

4. Re Networking meeting, see 2, this is the Internet, it's networked, that's why it is so powerful.

5. Would you rather Gavin ban or delete any posts that refer to or link to other forums or sites? I don't think that's a viable option.

Red Bigot wrote:
longtime lurker wrote:since you've asked for an opinion, I agree with previous poster re free-advertising for member' wine websites. People turn to forums for independant, unbiased discussions with hopefully no hidden agendas.
When posts pop up with links to other websites then the independance of the forum is then compromised.
When there are hints of fake TNs written to boost auction sales or commercial producer's sales, then all credibility for the the forum disapears, posters leave, and all you have left playing in the forum are all those with "vested interests".
A bit like a networking meeting !
I am not suggesting this has happened to Auswine however recent posts would indicate this may be starting.

RB

1. fair enough
2.this is Gavin's forum.It is his perogative to self advertise,nobody disputes that and I am certainly not complaining about that -otherwise we wouldn't be here.Don't try and slur my post as a complaint against Gavin - that was never my intention.
My point is that forums should not be for other users (no offence TORB) to cross-promote their own or others sites,be they commercial or not.These people are taking advantage of Gavin's traffic,which he has paid for by running the site.When any type of forum becomes overun with 3rd party promotions they get bogged down and become less popular with end users.
3.I think a panel to monitor Auswine to help Gavin out with this type of issue is a great idea.
4.By networking meeting I meant that in time the discussions on this forum may only be from industry related types and the real customers/consumers may have been put off/moved on. I hope that never happens.
5. I don't care what Gavin does with the site - it's his call-not yours.Gavin simply asked for some feedback from a lurker which I provided and which will hopefully be of use to Auswine.

Posted: **Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:48 pm**

previous by LL

Posted: **Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:51 pm**

Anonymous wrote:
longtime lurker wrote:
Gavin Trott wrote:Hello

There is very little spam on this board I feel.

since you've asked for an opinion, I agree with previous poster re free-advertising for member' wine websites. People turn to forums for independant, unbiased discussions with hopefully no hidden agendas.
When posts pop up with links to other websites then the independance of the forum is then compromised.
When there are hints of fake TNs written to boost auction sales or commercial producer's sales, then all credibility for the the forum disapears, posters leave, and all you have left playing in the forum are all those with "vested interests".
A bit like a networking meeting !
I am not suggesting this has happened to Auswine however recent posts would indicate this may be starting.

My initial thoughts ... 'lurker's' what do you think?

Sorry, how can you respect the opinion of somebody who doesn't even name themselves. Its all very brave to be critical because you havn't logged in. I notice that the one who started this as well as another who continued this theme is anonyomous - How handy - for all we know you could have a hidden agenda and have something against Gavin or the others who you are trying to slur - How about logging on with your real name and stop being a coward !

I'm not going to bite at this one. Nice try. :lol:

I have contributed to this forum because I support this forum and Gavin.

LL

Posted: **Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:54 pm**

Posted: **Mon Feb 09, 2004 8:57 pm**

Anonymous wrote:RB

1. fair enough
2.this is Gavin's forum.It is his perogative to self advertise,nobody disputes that and I am certainly not complaining about that -otherwise we wouldn't be here.Don't try and slur my post as a complaint against Gavin - that was never my intention.
My point is that forums should not be for other users (no offence TORB) to cross-promote their own or others sites,be they commercial or not.These people are taking advantage of Gavin's traffic,which he has paid for by running the site.When any type of forum becomes overun with 3rd party promotions they get bogged down and become less popular with end users.
3.I think a panel to monitor Auswine to help Gavin out with this type of issue is a great idea.
4.By networking meeting I meant that in time the discussions on this forum may only be from industry related types and the real customers/consumers may have been put off/moved on. I hope that never happens.
5. I don't care what Gavin does with the site - it's his call-not yours.Gavin simply asked for some feedback from a lurker which I provided and which will hopefully be of use to Auswine.

LL
Re 2. I agree (and said so previously) re Gavin's call. I have no idea how you made the other interpretation from what I said. As you said in 5, it's Gavin's call who he allows to cross-link. If you looked at Ric's site or my RBG page you'll see there are positive references to Auswine and Auswine Forum.
Re 3. I can just see that panel exchanging emails all day. :-(

Who do you think should be on the panel? In order of start date of posting on the (previous format) forum? I think Ric and I would be fairly high on the list, how about yourself? Besides, how many 'dicatators' do you know that willingly share power? :-)

Re 4. Do you include Ric and myself as industry-related types? Since we are not, I think you'll be hard-pressed to see much traffic from industry-types in that role. Re customer/consumer, as you may see from my pages, I bought a fair bit of wine from Gavin last year (nearly $3000 in fact), how much did you buy?
Re: 5 I was in no way suggesting it was my call, I was asking your opinion on one option that could be a logical extension of your point (and giving mine).

I'm sure Gavin appreciates the feedback, I'm giving mine as well as is my entitlement and mine just seems to disagree with yours. That's life.

Final question (to you and other lurkers): What would it take to turn you into a regular poster instead of a lurker? If many of you say as LL has that the sign-off links and other cross-links to other sites (commercial or not) are undesirable and removing this flavour would allow you to sign-up and post, I'm sure the offending parties would be happy to comply. I'm betting it's not a big factor for others, but happy to be proven wrong.

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:33 am**

I am on the road so I will keep this short.

Frankly I am gob smacked that people could take offence at the posting of cross links to non wine commercial sites that don't sell anything and don't advertise. And there I was thinking that this forum was here to encourage wine debate and share wine knowledge; so if the information requested is on another site or there is information on another site that is relevant to the debate whats wrong with proving the link to that information and discussing it here?

My site costs me a lot of time, money and effort to keep running and its a free service to wine lovers. If you don't like the links, nothing says you have to follow them, just like you don't have to read every post. So whats the harm? Can you tell me that? Just because someone doesn't like something, is that a reason to stop the majority of the people gaining benefit?

You can't please all of the people all of the time and if you try you will wind up with a camel when you started out with a thoroughbred horse.

Cheers
Ric

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:37 am**

Gee lurkers, give Gavin some credit!!
He is able to zap any post he feels is Inappropriate. I know he appreciates the notes that go up on other sites eg. Torbwine because he quotes them on his own sales page. IMHO the links to other sites can't possibly hurt this one as long as they are informative and non-commercial, and if they are 'see above'.
I have been part of sites that always have members directing other members to points of sale in order to get a great deal and that is great for users. On this site that happens far less often as people respect Gavin, his needs and the way the site operates. As Ric said, you don't have to follow the links and if you do you can always come back if it is not what you were expecting, delete cookies etc....
As for being lurkers, I don't think anybody cares if you are until you start criticising those who are willing to put a name to their opinions. And finally, if you don't like the site you know what to do and no harm done.

Regards to all

P.S. Brian it is not possible for all people to buy from Gavin so I don't think that gives anyone any greater rights or qualifications.

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:26 am**

simm wrote:
P.S. Brian it is not possible for all people to buy from Gavin so I don't think that gives anyone any greater rights or qualifications.

It isn't??

Overall the debate and discussion has been great, I value all opinions.

Yes its 'my' site, but really its for the members to use. I try to be as 'free' as I can. I don't delete often, and usually don't immediately delete even slightly commercial posts as some members may get benefits from it.

I also, I think, keep posts about auswine, the wine store, to a real minimum, only occasionally posting a new newsletter and really not much more.

Even debates where people disagree strongly I leave. The few I've deleted or frozen happen because one or more parties are getting angry and the posts are starting not to debate the issues, but to debate personalities ... this is not useful and not wine debate and so I freeze it if the rest of the debate is good, or delete it.

Do I always get it right, well no, but the above is the rationale above it.

What I really want is simple, as many people to post as possible, preferably by logging in and using their real names, but if not, then as 'guests'. Then this forum becomes really useful to all, the trade, the consumer, the newcomer etc.

Other wine related sites I allow cross posting if they contain useful information or services that wine consumers may find useful.

How about this, every one who visits and who has not posted this week, post at least once... a tasting note, a question, a comment, a response to a post. Suddenly we'll have real debate, ideas and a rapid exchange of information which is the point of the forum.

Let the debate continue, thanks all those contributing so far.

The Auswine Forum

What has happend?

What has happend?

Guest (RB)

Re: Guest (RB)

rant

rant