The Auswine Forum

The Max Lake Collection Wine Auction conducted by Langtons (now a part of Woolworths) and closed on Monday evening fetched some of the most ridiculously high prices I've seen. I've compiled a short list below of some of these prices paid. Prices are per bottle before the 15% buyer's premium, S16.50/case delivery fee, 1.5% insurance premium and 1% Credit Card surcharge if you pay by this means or require delivery/insurance within Australia.

CLONAKILLA Shiraz Viognier 2007 3 Bottles $222

LAKE'S FOLLY White Label Cabernets Hunter Valley 1998 2 Magnums $256

SEPPELT Maturation Release Riesling Eden Valley 1984 1 Bottle $120

TYRRELL'S 4 Acres Shiraz, Hunter Valley 2007 2 Bottles $116

TYRRELL'S Single Vineyard Old Patch 1867 Shiraz 2007 2 Bottles $111

CHATEAU LAFLEUR, Pomerol 1982 1 Bottle $1802

CHATEAU LEOVILLE-LAS-CASES 1982 1 Bottle $523

CHATEAU MARGAUX 1985 1 Bottle $411

CHATEAU MARGAUX 1986 2 Bottles $761

COMTE GEORGES DE VOGUE, Bonnes-Mares 1999 3 Bottles $700

FRANCOIS LAMARCHE La Grande Rue 1999 1 Bottle $401

These are but a few of many of the wines that adorn the secondary market at prices that have escalated extraordinarily over the recent past.

In supposed diificult economic times, I am at a loss why people are paying so much for particular name or cult wines. Perhaps if you have any of this type of wine, it's a good, no, great time to sell ..... but with one caveat - I sure ain't buying any!

I wasn't tracking those wines. The ones that I was looking at were also mostly higher than estimate. Perhaps due to the idea that the bottles were from known provenance (although it may be hard to ascertain that they were held by Lake from release).

Luckily I was caught in a meeting at auction close so no wine purchases this time round thankfully.

cheers

Carl

griff wrote:I wasn't tracking those wines. The ones that I was looking at were also mostly higher than estimate. Perhaps due to the idea that the bottles were from known provenance (although it may be hard to ascertain that they were held by Lake from release).

Luckily I was caught in a meeting at auction close so no wine purchases this time round thankfully.

cheers

Carl

I bought one relatively "no-name-brand" Bordeaux which always punches well over its weight for just under the estimate range. The rest I was looking at went for outrageously high dollars. Some almost double the estimate high.

Langton's can artificially create the market price by setting high estimates with a 90% of low estimate reserve (which the vendor can reset anywhere up to the mid-point between low and high estimate) but in this particular case the buyer feeding frenzy took over and prices for most of the better imported stuff went totally ballistic.

Surprising to see so much cheap/young Aussie wine in Max's stash and why so few from Lake's Folly?

Surprising to see so much cheap/young Aussie wine in Max's stash and why so few from Lake's Folly?

That's assuming that what was at auction was the whole cellar... personally if I was one of Mr Lake's heirs I would have pruned off a few bits and pieces for myself before the sale.

FWIW, I was bidding on a 1978 Chateau Mouton Rothschild and while I ended up backing out it was still sold for sub $200. Which didn't seem too bad to me.[/quote]

The 2 Magnums of Lakes Folly isn't too bad. You pay $110 for them x 2 which is $220. Plus it has 10 years on it. Plus the history.

The 2007 Clonakilla has been fetching $200+ prices at the auctions for a little while.

dave vino wrote:The 2 Magnums of Lakes Folly isn't too bad. You pay $110 for them x 2 which is $220. Plus it has 10 years on it. Plus the history.

The 2007 Clonakilla has been fetching $200+ prices at the auctions for a little while.

Those prices are per unit, so the two magnums would be $440. You're right about the Clonakilla though - I've seen it higher than that as well. Rarity value of the 2007 - only 120 cases made.

Wow I didn't realise those two Tyrrells 2007 wines had gone up so much, got a couple of each when I was at the cellar door a year ago, but now wishing I'd stocked up!!

Beat me to it - Loztralia ... and you're right .... price is per bottle! And the price was $256.

Ouch!! I take that back then

dlo wrote:CLONAKILLA Shiraz Viognier 2007 3 Bottles $222

TYRRELL'S 4 Acres Shiraz, Hunter Valley 2007 2 Bottles $116

Those sound about right to me? Both are rare as hens teeth with gushing ratings from critics.

I wasn't really tracking any of the wines listed by dlo above.

However, it does seem to me that Langtons has been pushing up estimates significantly over the last 12 months, particularly for Burgundy.

I find this very hard to explain given the concurrent unravelling of global financial markets, economic slowdown and tighter credit environment.

How can this be sustained? What has happened to the clearance rate? Does this have anything to do with Woolworths buying the business?

The last wine I sold on Langtons, a couple of months ago had the price estimates pushed way up but almost 50% if I recall. It was only 2 lots but the both sold well into the estimates so someone must be willing to pay the price. Others I have spoken to have seen the same thing. It would appear that booze being the one thing that survives a recession is true as always.

Glen

GRB wrote:The last wine I sold on Langtons, a couple of months ago had the price estimates pushed way up but almost 50% if I recall. It was only 2 lots but the both sold well into the estimates so someone must be willing to pay the price. Others I have spoken to have seen the same thing. It would appear that booze being the one thing that survives a recession is true as always.

Glen

I was wondering why I seem to be buying so little at Langtons lately. That must be the reason.
The system keeps outbidding me.
And then the wine shows up again at the next auction.
Still, if that business model works for them, good luck...
cheers,
Graeme

GraemeG wrote:

GRB wrote:The last wine I sold on Langtons, a couple of months ago had the price estimates pushed way up but almost 50% if I recall. It was only 2 lots but the both sold well into the estimates so someone must be willing to pay the price. Others I have spoken to have seen the same thing. It would appear that booze being the one thing that survives a recession is true as always.

Glen

I was wondering why I seem to be buying so little at Langtons lately. That must be the reason.
The system keeps outbidding me.
And then the wine shows up again at the next auction.
Still, if that business model works for them, good luck...
cheers,
Graeme

The reason for system outbidding you is that there is a higher reserve value on the item than your bid. The system will keep outbidding all the bidders until an actual bid reaches the reserve. The system will stop bidding there. If nobody else bids then the wine will be sold at the reserve price. This is what happens most of the time. A lot of items are sold at the reserve value.

I bought 10 bottles, all at prices above the estimates, and all what I felt was under their value. Even that 99 La Grand Rue, which I dropped out of, is good value when compared to the current release price.

The clearance rate was very high -- only 40 or so lots passed in.

I'm sure the "economic downturn" hasn't affected some people at all.

Eurocentric wrote:.

I'm sure the "economic downturn" hasn't affected some people at all.

I have no doubt the US has seen some of their hardest times ever and whilst in Australia we are nowhere near the height of our economy; comarisons to the 80's reccession is just ridiculous. I remember driving through industrial estates back then and litterally every 3rd factory was for sale/lease with no business left in the premisis and there was a house in every street for sale with none clearing. Today they are still selling reasonably well (again a bit off their peak but nothing sits at peak for ever), shoping centres near me are all still busy as are restaraunts and pokie venues never die. I think there would be some who are happily spending more than ever on wine. I (very) recently sold a few dozen of odds and ends and they cleared at pretty good prices in 2 Auctions was all it took.

ufo wrote:The reason for system outbidding you is that there is a higher reserve value on the item than your bid. The system will keep outbidding all the bidders until an actual bid reaches the reserve. The system will stop bidding there. If nobody else bids then the wine will be sold at the reserve price. This is what happens most of the time. A lot of items are sold at the reserve value.

Is this legal?

Michael McNally wrote:

ufo wrote:The reason for system outbidding you is that there is a higher reserve value on the item than your bid. The system will keep outbidding all the bidders until an actual bid reaches the reserve. The system will stop bidding there. If nobody else bids then the wine will be sold at the reserve price. This is what happens most of the time. A lot of items are sold at the reserve value.

Is this legal?

Don't see why not - it's just the same thing as having a minimum bid on eBay isn't it? If you won't bid more than the reserve you won't get the wine. If you're not happy to pay more, don't bid. I must confess I'm struggling to see what Langton's is doing wrong or identify any big conspiracy to rip anyone off.

Loztralia wrote:

Michael McNally wrote:

ufo wrote:The reason for system outbidding you is that there is a higher reserve value on the item than your bid. The system will keep outbidding all the bidders until an actual bid reaches the reserve. The system will stop bidding there. If nobody else bids then the wine will be sold at the reserve price. This is what happens most of the time. A lot of items are sold at the reserve value.

Is this legal?

Don't see why not - it's just the same thing as having a minimum bid on eBay isn't it? If you won't bid more than the reserve you won't get the wine. If you're not happy to pay more, don't bid. I must confess I'm struggling to see what Langton's is doing wrong or identify any big conspiracy to rip anyone off.

Don't know if it is legal or not. But I don't think it is a fair system

Loztralia wrote:

Michael McNally wrote:Is this legal?

Don't see why not - it's just the same thing as having a minimum bid on eBay isn't it? If you won't bid more than the reserve you won't get the wine. If you're not happy to pay more, don't bid. I must confess I'm struggling to see what Langton's is doing wrong or identify any big conspiracy to rip anyone off.

Hi Loz

AFAIK if you make a bid for the minimum bid on ebay and no one else bids, you get the item.

What ufo seems to be saying is that the minimum bids on Langtons do not reflect the reserve price, something I wasn't aware of. That is slightly different. However, thinking about it more now, starting the bidding lower than the reserve price must be legal as it happens at house actions etc.

I hadn't considered this before and had always assumed that if I was outbid on Langtons that it was because another bidder had bid more, not because I hadn't reached the reserve price.

Maybe it's the same on ebay too? Can you set a reserve price above the minimum bid you set?

Cheers

Michael

Clonakilla

dlo wrote:The Max Lake Collection Wine Auction conducted by Langtons (now a part of Woolworths) and closed on Monday evening fetched some of the most ridiculously high prices I've seen. I've compiled a short list below of some of these prices paid. Prices are per bottle before the 15% buyer's premium, S16.50/case delivery fee, 1.5% insurance premium and 1% Credit Card surcharge if you pay by this means or require delivery/insurance within Australia.

CLONAKILLA Shiraz Viognier 2007 3 Bottles $222

LAKE'S FOLLY White Label Cabernets Hunter Valley 1998 2 Magnums $256

SEPPELT Maturation Release Riesling Eden Valley 1984 1 Bottle $120

TYRRELL'S 4 Acres Shiraz, Hunter Valley 2007 2 Bottles $116

TYRRELL'S Single Vineyard Old Patch 1867 Shiraz 2007 2 Bottles $111

CHATEAU LAFLEUR, Pomerol 1982 1 Bottle $1802

CHATEAU LEOVILLE-LAS-CASES 1982 1 Bottle $523

CHATEAU MARGAUX 1985 1 Bottle $411

CHATEAU MARGAUX 1986 2 Bottles $761

COMTE GEORGES DE VOGUE, Bonnes-Mares 1999 3 Bottles $700

FRANCOIS LAMARCHE La Grande Rue 1999 1 Bottle $401

These are but a few of many of the wines that adorn the secondary market at prices that have escalated extraordinarily over the recent past.

In supposed diificult economic times, I am at a loss why people are paying so much for particular name or cult wines. Perhaps if you have any of this type of wine, it's a good, no, great time to sell ..... but with one caveat - I sure ain't buying any!

$222 a bottle of 07 Clonakilla SV, depsite its rarity, some people must have more money than senses, guess this mainly driven by supply and demand.

Boyeah

Michael McNally wrote:

Loztralia wrote:

Michael McNally wrote:Is this legal?

Don't see why not - it's just the same thing as having a minimum bid on eBay isn't it? If you won't bid more than the reserve you won't get the wine. If you're not happy to pay more, don't bid. I must confess I'm struggling to see what Langton's is doing wrong or identify any big conspiracy to rip anyone off.

Hi Loz

AFAIK if you make a bid for the minimum bid on ebay and no one else bids, you get the item.

What ufo seems to be saying is that the minimum bids on Langtons do not reflect the reserve price, something I wasn't aware of. That is slightly different. However, thinking about it more now, starting the bidding lower than the reserve price must be legal as it happens at house actions etc.

I hadn't considered this before and had always assumed that if I was outbid on Langtons that it was because another bidder had bid more, not because I hadn't reached the reserve price.

Maybe it's the same on ebay too? Can you set a reserve price above the minimum bid you set?

Cheers

Michael

Well, nothing is wrong with starting with a bit lower than the reserve. What's is wrong is that systems automatically outbids you if your bid is lower than the reserve. This way a bidder can very easily find out what the reserve is and it is not fair at all. System immediately outbids you when you make your bid. So you keep increasing to the point where system does not outbid you and that is the reserve . I have seen this happening to many of my wines sold there. If there isn't any other competition, the buyer sits and waits and makes the final bid just before auction closing and buys the item at reserve price.

ufo wrote:Well, nothing is wrong with starting with a bit lower than the reserve. What's is wrong is that systems automatically outbids you if your bid is lower than the reserve. This way a bidder can very easily find out what the reserve is and it is not fair at all. System immediately outbids you when you make your bid. So you keep increasing to the point where system does not outbid you and that is the reserve . I have seen this happening to many of my wines sold there. If there isn't any other competition, the buyer sits and waits and makes the final bid just before auction closing and buys the item at reserve price.

But that's just the free market, isn't it? If you have a good for sale that you are willing to sell for any price above $X and there is only one person who is willing to buy it, why should they pay more than $X? If two or more people want it then happy days - whichever wants to pay most for it will get it.

The Langton's system seems to me like a way of trying to generate a bit of bid momentum, which has to be preferable to sellers than just having a minimum bid of the reserve and letting things sit there unbid. But you can't really complain as a seller if you only get the reserve when there's only one bidder - you just own a product for which there isn't enough demand to get a higher price.

On the buy side, you aren't going to get anything for less than the reserve whatever you do so there doesn't seem to be much point in complaining about opening bids below the reserve. Sure it might say $20 for a 1982 Chateau Lafite but you know you ain't getting it for that so suck it up and bid what you think it's worth.

EDIT: apols if I sound patronising. Not my intention - been a long week.

Just checked my sales lots on Langtons for tonight's sale and noticed a new page for the first time. Now I can see what my reserve is as well as what the current high bid is. That's cool ... but even better is that more than half of them have already reached their reserve, with 100 mins to go on the auction. So there must be a bit of money coming back into it. Of course, these things have been passed in four times mostly and I have reduced the prices, but it seems like another healthy sale already. I'm glad they are going cos I was just about to withdraw them and drink them myself, and that doesn't help pay the bills!

Sterling Auctions prices have been ludicrous for ages. They have been way above the “normal” range of reserves they used to have. I've stopped buying due to over inflated reserves and the very poor customer service and lack of professionalism they are starting to show. Unfortunate because they used to be excellent (about half my stock was bought from them).