The Auswine Forum

On Saturday Night opened a 1991 Lindemans HR Stevens Shiraz and thought it much better than one tried a couple of years ago. Having seen much the same thing in the 1991 Vat 9 I started wondering about dumb phases. Has anyone seen any trends about when to and when not to drink things. Some of the drinking windows I've seen recently seem to say drink before a dumb phase while primary fruit still arround but miss the phase afterwards when wine is in its full bloom

So any theories?

David

Theory;
You see plot lines for wine maturity that resemble elongated Bell curves. And yet, it seems every wine is different. How long/deep is the riesling trough?

My take: it's hopelessly unpredictable. It ain't a Bell curve, it's more like a sine wave. No wonder it's so hard to drink a wine at its peak!

cheers,
Graeme

Hey DJ,
It's funny, I was thinking about this very thing last night and was going to actually put forward a topic asking people whether they thought the 'dumb phase' theory was real or just jargon from Brians list.

The truth is out there!

Wasnt it Parker who said it was all BS?

Anonymous wrote:Wasnt it Parker who said it was all BS?

No idea!!

Come you guys, get off the Bin range thread for a just minute to throw some coins in here.

cheers,

DJ wrote:On Saturday Night opened a 1991 Lindemans HR Stevens Shiraz and thought it much better than one tried a couple of years ago. Having seen much the same thing in the 1991 Vat 9 I started wondering about dumb phases. Has anyone seen any trends about when to and when not to drink things. Some of the drinking windows I've seen recently seem to say drink before a dumb phase while primary fruit still arround but miss the phase afterwards when wine is in its full bloom

So any theories?

David

1991 Vat 9 - I hope this is in a dumb phase right now. The one that I opened a few months ago was very boring.

More specifically on dumb phases, they are real. Don't drink Clonakilla Shiraz/Viognier between 3 & 5 years. Many people quote James Halliday's 7 year rule on Coonawarra Cabernets - drink young or after 7 years. I think it more 9 or 10 years and maybe even longer for John Riddochs - I see a few negatives around about the 1991 JR. I have confidence that it will be great in another 5 years.

Had a 1996 Sally's Paddock in April last year - talk about closed. This wine was soldered closed. I put a note in not to drink another one until 2008.

So, is it regional or varietal? I lean to that it is a true expression of terrior, so all of the above, as well as winemaking techniques.

Adair

I reckon about 50% of "dumb phases" are due to very low level TCA. Just a theory I have though.

GW

Gary W wrote:I reckon about 50% of "dumb phases" are due to very low level TCA. Just a theory I have though.

GW

I reckon that theory is "really out there" and should be called a "wacky scientist's hypothesis".

Lots of love,
Adair

Adair wrote:

Gary W wrote:I reckon about 50% of "dumb phases" are due to very low level TCA. Just a theory I have though.

GW

I reckon that theory is "really out there" and should be called a "wacky scientist's hypothesis".

Lots of love,
Adair

I put it down to the fact that you have been drinking wines with too much "Terrior" in them you mongrel.
GW

Gary W wrote:

Adair wrote:

Gary W wrote:I reckon about 50% of "dumb phases" are due to very low level TCA. Just a theory I have though.

GW

I reckon that theory is "really out there" and should be called a "wacky scientist's hypothesis".

Lots of love,
Adair

I put it down to the fact that you have been drinking wines with too much "Terrior" in them you mongrel.
GW

I agree that I seem to be a big fan of terrior "character", even though that character might be a of reductiveness (new word?) or brett, BUT, I don't think I ever said to myself...
"Hessian, wet cardboard with a touch of Labrador Retreiver... YUM!"

Adair

Low level TCA is worse than full on cork taint. Gets you into arguments with antsy sommelliers...(well OK that bit is fun)..strips fruit and character..mutes nose...erm is that a "dumb phase" ..generally not and I have confirmed this time and time again by opening a second bottle....ooh looky look....no dumb phase
GW

Gary W wrote:Low level TCA is worse than full on cork taint. Gets you into arguments with antsy sommelliers...(well OK that bit is fun)..strips fruit and character..mutes nose...erm is that a "dumb phase" ..generally not and I have confirmed this time and time again by opening a second bottle....ooh looky look....no dumb phase
GW

As well as enjoying (slightly) the smell of Labrador Retreiver, I have the nose of one too! I enjoy arguments with sommeliers as well.

Adair wrote:As well as enjoying (slightly) the smell of Labrador Retreiver, I have the nose of one too! I enjoy arguments with sommeliers as well.

But you have the hair of a freshly shampood Samoy.
GW

Good question DJ. Another unsolvable wine mystery I fear.

Gary W is onto something. Small levels of TCA may affect and degrade a wine just enough to assume a dumb phase. Then again, had a 94 Pichon-Longueville last week that was closed and I had given up as dumb or slight TCA. The wine did open up eventually to rear some pleasant fruit.

Riesling supposedly closes down a few years after release. Yet Rockfords releases their Eden Valley riesling at what should be the start of the dumb phase. Is the Rockford riesling dumb on release? Soon after?

A litmus type test for TCA would prove helpful. Possibly the only way to answer your question.

JamieBahrain wrote:Riesling supposedly closes down a few years after release. Yet Rockfords releases their Eden Valley riesling at what should be the start of the dumb phase. Is the Rockford riesling dumb on release? Soon after?

No, but is made very differently than the standard Clare/Eden Riesling.

Adair

My mistake. I was not talking about their old vines riesling but I meant the standard 16 odd dollar riesling. The components of which are from both regions.

The standard Rockford riesling is released much later than the rest of the pack. Felt this a good example of the possibility of dumb riesling-thoughts?

JamieBahrain wrote:My mistake. I was not talking about their old vines riesling but I meant the standard 16 odd dollar riesling. The components of which are from both regions.

The standard Rockford riesling is released much later than the rest of the pack. Felt this a good example of the possibility of dumb riesling-thoughts?

This is still made from 30+ year old plus vines. The difference is that it is slightly later picked and has considerably more skin contact - making it quite different to the ideas that most people have in their minds about the slightly aged dumb Riesling phase.

Sorry, badly worded, I am drinking another bottle of the Rockford Rifle Range.

I think you get it.

Adair

Hi All,

I find a good way of establishing if a wine has low level TCA is to add some hot water to the wine, just a bit, then put your hand over the glass & shake. This should activate the offending components to at least a more detectable level, for a reasonably sensitive nose. If nothing is detectable after this, I'll put the cork back in the bottle & store in a cool place & try the next day. On the occasions I've done this, at least some fruit has usually come out to play, so I record it as being in a "dumb phase" & don't try any more bottles of that wine for another 2 years.
Good luck,
lantana

You learn something every day on Auswine!

Thanks Lantana, will try that next time.

Probably raise my TCA affected wines to the 10% mark.

Though I was just lucky!

lantana wrote:Hi All,

I find a good way of establishing if a wine has low level TCA is to add some hot water to the wine, just a bit, then put your hand over the glass & shake. This should activate the offending components to at least a more detectable level, for a reasonably sensitive nose. If nothing is detectable after this, I'll put the cork back in the bottle & store in a cool place & try the next day. On the occasions I've done this, at least some fruit has usually come out to play, so I record it as being in a "dumb phase" & don't try any more bottles of that wine for another 2 years.
Good luck,
lantana

Wow, that came from left field! How did you figure that one out. Can't wait to give it a go and see the look on my wifes face as she wonders what the hell I'm doing!

Adair, are these dog traits true? How about a photo of the snout

Sorry that was me, forgot to log in
best,

Simm wrote:Adair, are these dog traits true? How about a photo of the snout

Well, they say that dogs and their masters start to look like one another after a while and I have had Labradors for the most part of my life, however,...




...the nose has definitely widened over the past few decades, but I think it might be due to the number of times it has been donked!!!

Great photo, wish I had one to show.

'Call that a nose? Now, this is a nose!' kind of reply. Mines been hit by cricket bats, balls, fists, feet, and children!!! Isn't working at %100 but can still fit it into a large glass Thank God (imagine the horror of waking up one day and not being able to pick up on the bouquet!)

thanks again!

simm wrote:Great photo, wish I had one to show.

'Call that a nose? Now, this is a nose!' kind of reply. Mines been hit by cricket bats, balls, fists, feet, and children!!! Isn't working at %100 but can still fit it into a large glass

thanks again!

Hahaha - many of the teeth you see in my photo are either the subject of root canal therapy or are fake - thanks to a cricket ball, a leggie and me fielding at short leg!!!

At least it missed my nose ...and I saved 4 runs.

Simm/Adair,

I picked up that little gem from my favourite retailer, he's a wealth of knowledge!

lantana

lantana wrote:Simm/Adair,

I picked up that little gem from my favourite retailer, he's a wealth of knowledge!

lantana

Any other gems? I know the old fill the 300/500ml mineral water bottle to a meniscus trick for storing opened wine long term. Works much better than vacuum pumping and such which to my mind kills and flavour and rarely helps for more than a day. A good stable wine should hold for a day anyway so I'm not sure it works at all.

seizure,
simm

Adair

In regard to Rockford's Eden Valley Riesling and a dumb phase. Been a while and a long way from the Eden Valley so will try to pull from the memory banks.

The delicate, floral fragrance of Eden Valley riesling on release is not theat pronouned in the Rockfords?

At the moment I expect you will be finding that in 2003 Eden Valley rieslings.

Would the 2000 Rockford's Riesling on sale now be shut down slightly? A pronounced lime dominated bouquet ready for the long haul?

Missed a few Eden Valley vintages recently-sadly!

PS Who's the Brune et Blonde on your left?

simm wrote:Mines been hit by cricket bats, balls

Since when is cricket classified as an extreme sport?

As about the dumb phase. I reckon the chemistry within the wine has not yet reached equalibrium. Just my 2 cents worth

JamieBahrain wrote:The delicate, floral fragrance of Eden Valley riesling on release is not theat pronouned in the Rockfords?

That is correct. There is not a great deal that is delicate, relatively speaking, about the Rockford.

JamieBahrain wrote:Would the 2000 Rockford's Riesling on sale now be shut down slightly?

The 2001 is on sale now and I actually asked one of the staffers this exact question as I bought some before getting to the cellar door to taste it - the answer of "no" was given as if they had nearly not heard of the phenomena.

JamieBahrain wrote:A pronounced lime dominated bouquet ready for the long haul?

No - the wine is powerful in a phenolic sort of way as opposed to a fruit purity sort of way. It has a very, very broad base of fruit but describing this base as limes, florals and all things nice that Rieslings are usually described is providing the wrong impression.

JamieBahrain wrote:PS Who's the Brune et Blonde on your left?

That is the missus.