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I think we are talking at cross purposes....but I’m sure people are enjoying the distraction whilst they wait for credit cards to be hit!phillisc wrote:livcoll, as I said with respect and even more so with whatever inference or premise you draw from my comment, rightfully that is up to you. What my intention was is comment on the content of the post, and wouldn't matter who wrote it, even Gary or Mike themselves.livcoll wrote:phillisc wrote:
With respect, points for Wendouree's are absolutely arbitrary. I wouldn't know anyone who buys the wines based on points, nor would it matter what the points were.
Cheers Craig
Haha I don’t buy them on points either...in fact I’ll be opening a 2011 Wendouree Malbec this weekend..and not sure you actually do intend your comments with respect as you have drawn inferences from things I haven’t said...
I was more interested in their descriptions varying on either whether it was exceptional and or good vintage. Which has been previously discussed on this thread. The points differential (as the system is developed to do) just highlights their different takes.
So, here's the thing or at least my take on it;
Points for Wendouree are arbitrary, particularly those from a US scribe whose intention is drum up hysteria and potentially feed the ego of investors and or trophy hunters and or those flippers/flickers who feed the secondary market.
It's a small make, witnessed here and everywhere in discussions about the wine, with plenty clamoring to get a few bottles. The post reflecting prices those are willing to pay in UK markets is testament to that. The attraction for most here in Australia of course is the history and the price. VFM over 30 years is off the scale! The average punter when their mailer arrives, or those who pay much more at selected retailers that get an allocation don't think for a second, its only 94 points this year...won't bother. Tony Brady doesn't buy into (at least publicly) X vintage was a cracker, or X vintage was slightly better than Y vintage. He might comment, that climate, rain, harvest all varies, but they do their best in the winery to produce a quality product. I am assured that for example, nothing released from 07, indicating if not up to scratch, then not made. You could argue that 11 may be the same, but might have got the fruit off before the hail storms went through. Will certainly be interested on your note on the Malbec. I only have Shiraz and Cabernet from that vintage.
In regards to points and those who anoint them (have a lot of time for Gary by the way, calls it as he sees it), again its an arbitrary crystal ball gazing exercise with Wendouree. One you actually need to like the style, big vs. restrained and everything in between. Two, time is required for a complete assessment. Three, context is essential, the ability to compare multiple wines across multiple vintages, as we did at the excellent offline in 2016.
Points might be important to some, and that I appreciate. It may be the deciding factor that you pass, but I would think that incredibly rare for the Wendouree buyer
No disrespect intended, I acknowledge on occasion that my posts get some folks fired up, but feel in this instance with a 30 year buying and tasting history it gives me a little skin the game. Great to see you are also in Adelaide, there are a couple of us when the whole Covid thing blows over, would love to do another Wendouree offline.
Cheers Craig
Haha the point you have missed is that my point was not the POINTS.phillisc wrote:What have I missed here...or pardon the pun you raised the point about points...not me. They're irrelevant. And difference between scribes and points also irrelevant.
NS might have started in SA but don't reckon he spends much time here... mainly eastern states or OS (pre-covid).
Happy to catch up at an offline.
Cheers Craig
). Having said I have had some amazing examples and a handful of bottles that have really stuck with me.
Alright one last time...livcoll wrote:Haha the point you have missed is that my point was not the POINTS.phillisc wrote:What have I missed here...or pardon the pun you raised the point about points...not me. They're irrelevant. And difference between scribes and points also irrelevant.
NS might have started in SA but don't reckon he spends much time here... mainly eastern states or OS (pre-covid).
Happy to catch up at an offline.
Cheers Craig
I only mentioned them to highlight their differences takes on the vintages as a whole. I didn’t say at any stage they are important and should influence what you buy. In fact I said the opposite. The fun is actually making up your own mind.
Nick has been doing a bit in SA for a while. And points aside as we wait. He’s the only guy who has tasted the wines with Tony that I have seen put anything out. So if you are looking for some insight whilst you wait to taste, his article is an interesting insight (just close your eyes when you reach the review and points!). He’s also a mailing list subscriber. So like us all a fan and regular buyer.
On the mater of points though, you seem firmly against. But you publish them to sell wine through your website? Or am I missing something?
And whilst the commanding tannins of Wendouree give rise to the great longevity of the wines, they are not for everyone. The comparisons with nebbiolo and Barolo in particular are commonly made but in recent years, particularly since the wines moved to bottling under screw cap in the 2009 vintage, the tannins have turned towards a smoother, more emulsified and pliable texture.
I’m not totally sure about he millennial following driving points purchasing. It’s been around for a long time and in my personal experience that generation as a rule have moved further away than any other from the wine establishment. They are certainly the drive behind the organic wine resurgence. Not saying where I sit on that!phillisc wrote:Alright one last time...livcoll wrote:Haha the point you have missed is that my point was not the POINTS.phillisc wrote:What have I missed here...or pardon the pun you raised the point about points...not me. They're irrelevant. And difference between scribes and points also irrelevant.
NS might have started in SA but don't reckon he spends much time here... mainly eastern states or OS (pre-covid).
Happy to catch up at an offline.
Cheers Craig
I only mentioned them to highlight their differences takes on the vintages as a whole. I didn’t say at any stage they are important and should influence what you buy. In fact I said the opposite. The fun is actually making up your own mind.
Nick has been doing a bit in SA for a while. And points aside as we wait. He’s the only guy who has tasted the wines with Tony that I have seen put anything out. So if you are looking for some insight whilst you wait to taste, his article is an interesting insight (just close your eyes when you reach the review and points!). He’s also a mailing list subscriber. So like us all a fan and regular buyer.
On the mater of points though, you seem firmly against. But you publish them to sell wine through your website? Or am I missing something?
Wendouree points and vintage variations...arbitrary, meaningless, irrelevant. Buy every year, never influences my purchase, never need to make up my mind, the decision is automatic...pity there is no annual direct debit arrangement
Good on NS doing some work in SA, (great he is a subscriber and puts his money where his mouth is), reviewing the wines which as you say is more important than points, but feel, like a number of wine scribes is East Coast centric.
On the matter of points in general, many consumers, particularly the millennial generation need to be comforted with something they can measure, and the wine scribe does their best to quantify the subjectivity. Its got to the stage now, when I get multiple calls from wineries, there is the opening spiel from the lass or chap on the blower, 'so and so has just awarded us X, we are a certain star winery'. When they finally draw breath, I'm solely interested in what is the offer, and what is the price...as if money was no object...all of us here would be buying much more wine.
The fundamental problem with points is many wine scribes have no room to move, put all their cards on the table and its a guessing game e.g. multiple 100 point scores for certain Pennies wines. In simple terms, which I can appreciate, 100 = perfection, so what for anything to come that is considered superior, measured subjectively now as perfection plus!!??
I think GW's reviews are excellent, fair and realistic, and indeed a sound indicator of quality (or otherwise) relating to any wine, long before a number pops up.
Not sure what you infer with publishing points to sell wine on a website...mine, or someone else's?
Cheers Craig
Craig may act as though he owns the website, but he doesn't.livcoll wrote:I was just interested to know whether your ideological view on points impacted whether or not you’d chose to publish them for sales.
Haha fairo. My mistake!JamieBahrain wrote:Craig may act as though he owns the website, but he doesn't.livcoll wrote:I was just interested to know whether your ideological view on points impacted whether or not you’d chose to publish them for sales.
Gavin does.
hmmm. I think if they offer it up then Im free to ask for whatever i like. Otherwise why are they offering? I guess they could reduce the offering to red stripers and the like in an effort to reduce the pressure on themselves in the first place. far be it from me though. I'm sure its very difficult in these leaner years.livcoll wrote:I’m not totally sure about he millennial following driving points purchasing. It’s been around for a long time and in my personal experience that generation as a rule have moved further away than any other from the wine establishment. They are certainly the drive behind the organic wine resurgence. Not saying where I sit on that!phillisc wrote:Alright one last time...livcoll wrote:
Haha the point you have missed is that my point was not the POINTS.
I only mentioned them to highlight their differences takes on the vintages as a whole. I didn’t say at any stage they are important and should influence what you buy. In fact I said the opposite. The fun is actually making up your own mind.
Nick has been doing a bit in SA for a while. And points aside as we wait. He’s the only guy who has tasted the wines with Tony that I have seen put anything out. So if you are looking for some insight whilst you wait to taste, his article is an interesting insight (just close your eyes when you reach the review and points!). He’s also a mailing list subscriber. So like us all a fan and regular buyer.
On the mater of points though, you seem firmly against. But you publish them to sell wine through your website? Or am I missing something?
Wendouree points and vintage variations...arbitrary, meaningless, irrelevant. Buy every year, never influences my purchase, never need to make up my mind, the decision is automatic...pity there is no annual direct debit arrangement
Good on NS doing some work in SA, (great he is a subscriber and puts his money where his mouth is), reviewing the wines which as you say is more important than points, but feel, like a number of wine scribes is East Coast centric.
On the matter of points in general, many consumers, particularly the millennial generation need to be comforted with something they can measure, and the wine scribe does their best to quantify the subjectivity. Its got to the stage now, when I get multiple calls from wineries, there is the opening spiel from the lass or chap on the blower, 'so and so has just awarded us X, we are a certain star winery'. When they finally draw breath, I'm solely interested in what is the offer, and what is the price...as if money was no object...all of us here would be buying much more wine.
The fundamental problem with points is many wine scribes have no room to move, put all their cards on the table and its a guessing game e.g. multiple 100 point scores for certain Pennies wines. In simple terms, which I can appreciate, 100 = perfection, so what for anything to come that is considered superior, measured subjectively now as perfection plus!!??
I think GW's reviews are excellent, fair and realistic, and indeed a sound indicator of quality (or otherwise) relating to any wine, long before a number pops up.
Not sure what you infer with publishing points to sell wine on a website...mine, or someone else's?
Cheers Craig
I agree and have no doubt points drives purchasing though. Unfortunately. I agree with you if I read a review I’m more interested in the words than the points. And it’s all irrelevant anyway if it’s not a wine or grape you actually like. Agree also RE GW. Even if I don’t agree with his review you know he’s fiercely independent.
I was just interested to know whether your ideological view on points impacted whether or not you’d chose to publish them for sales.
Also RE people who are RED stripes and what to order. I think if you are black or signature fill up.
But I have spoken before with Lita who states that ‘they like small orders’. So I infer that form that it you are a red stripe you are better asking for a nibble and not a bite, if you want to get fed in lean yield years.
Scotty vino wrote:
hmmm. I think if they offer it up then Im free to ask for whatever i like. Otherwise why are they offering? I guess they could reduce the offering to red stripers and the like in an effort to reduce the pressure on themselves in the first place. far be it from me though. I'm sure its very difficult in these leaner years.
I've been a red striper for 10 years and have not gotten a full order 3 of the last 5 years. I only ever order 3 of everything, never greedy and always send my order form back straight away. I even express posted it this year and still didn't get a full order.livcoll wrote:I’m not totally sure about he millennial following driving points purchasing. It’s been around for a long time and in my personal experience that generation as a rule have moved further away than any other from the wine establishment. They are certainly the drive behind the organic wine resurgence. Not saying where I sit on that!phillisc wrote:Alright one last time...livcoll wrote:
Haha the point you have missed is that my point was not the POINTS.
I only mentioned them to highlight their differences takes on the vintages as a whole. I didn’t say at any stage they are important and should influence what you buy. In fact I said the opposite. The fun is actually making up your own mind.
Nick has been doing a bit in SA for a while. And points aside as we wait. He’s the only guy who has tasted the wines with Tony that I have seen put anything out. So if you are looking for some insight whilst you wait to taste, his article is an interesting insight (just close your eyes when you reach the review and points!). He’s also a mailing list subscriber. So like us all a fan and regular buyer.
On the mater of points though, you seem firmly against. But you publish them to sell wine through your website? Or am I missing something?
Wendouree points and vintage variations...arbitrary, meaningless, irrelevant. Buy every year, never influences my purchase, never need to make up my mind, the decision is automatic...pity there is no annual direct debit arrangement
Good on NS doing some work in SA, (great he is a subscriber and puts his money where his mouth is), reviewing the wines which as you say is more important than points, but feel, like a number of wine scribes is East Coast centric.
On the matter of points in general, many consumers, particularly the millennial generation need to be comforted with something they can measure, and the wine scribe does their best to quantify the subjectivity. Its got to the stage now, when I get multiple calls from wineries, there is the opening spiel from the lass or chap on the blower, 'so and so has just awarded us X, we are a certain star winery'. When they finally draw breath, I'm solely interested in what is the offer, and what is the price...as if money was no object...all of us here would be buying much more wine.
The fundamental problem with points is many wine scribes have no room to move, put all their cards on the table and its a guessing game e.g. multiple 100 point scores for certain Pennies wines. In simple terms, which I can appreciate, 100 = perfection, so what for anything to come that is considered superior, measured subjectively now as perfection plus!!??
I think GW's reviews are excellent, fair and realistic, and indeed a sound indicator of quality (or otherwise) relating to any wine, long before a number pops up.
Not sure what you infer with publishing points to sell wine on a website...mine, or someone else's?
Cheers Craig
I agree and have no doubt points drives purchasing though. Unfortunately. I agree with you if I read a review I’m more interested in the words than the points. And it’s all irrelevant anyway if it’s not a wine or grape you actually like. Agree also RE GW. Even if I don’t agree with his review you know he’s fiercely independent.
I was just interested to know whether your ideological view on points impacted whether or not you’d chose to publish them for sales.
Also RE people who are RED stripes and what to order. I think if you are black or signature fill up.
But I have spoken before with Lita who states that ‘they like small orders’. So I infer that form that it you are a red stripe you are better asking for a nibble and not a bite, if you want to get fed in lean yield years.
.).
Matt@5453 wrote:its disappointing, but predictable - there are 2018's available for bidding on a well known auction site
That is one of the many reasons why we like Tony and Lita. What other cult winery anywhere in the world would write a handwritten note of apology like that? I wonder if they ever would have anticipated having such a reveered status in the wine world whilst being so humble and unassuming. And Tony being a teetotaler as well!tuxy85 wrote:After being very excited to receive my first Wendouree order form - I placed an order for a mixed 6 pack (4x Shiraz Mataro, 2x Cabernet Malbec). Unfortunately, today I received a lovely handwritten note saying that I would not be receiving any of my order. ..... I'll try again next year I guess.