The Auswine Forum

Posted: **Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:08 am**

Craig,

If I Iived in Australia and had the opportunity to build a house the first thing I would do is build an underground cellar. In many parts of Canada houses have basements and though many of them are finished the northern wall is always cooler and a fine place to store store wines.

A long time ago my wines were in a friend's unfinished basement along the north wall away from the washer, dryer and furnace. Funnily enough, he had another friend who had to move north to manage a hotel and needed a place to store his collection of Playboy/Penthouuse magazines, most of them wrapped in cellophane like vintage comic books. So for many a year my wines were stacked next to boxes of nudie magazines. I'd like to think that the sexy femme fatales had an effect on my wines but that is wishful thinking. Eventually the magazines had to go because my friend thought it might not be a good idea what with his two daughters growing up. My wines had to go when he decided to develop his basement into a recreational space.

Cheers ......... Mahmoud.

Posted: **Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:25 pm**

Polymer wrote: I've not said once that there is only one way to cellar...I've just stated my opinion... That's not telling anyone what they have to do, it is just what I am stating seems to be a good idea.

Umm....

Polymer wrote: I'm saying, for the most part, not to buy to cellar. I've said of course there are the bottle here or there you might want to cellar...but your buying isn't, at its core, to cellar your wine.

Cellaring wine is NOT the most thing for a wine enthusiasts not in the trade....in fact I'd put it way down on the list...
..Your way might've been the only way pre-Internet..that isn't the case anymore.

As wine enthusiasts there is some fun in having a lot of bottles........but ultimately we all know that leaving this world having a bunch of stuff in our cellar isn't the best way to do it - we justify it by saying we'd leave it to our kids but really it is a sub-optimal plan.

Polymer wrote: It isn't a matter of being able to afford to...obviously if someone is spending 3k a year on cellaring, they indeed can afford to. The question is whether they should.

Sounds a lot like telling people what to do if you ask me?

You have basically said even if people want to cellar a lot of bottles and can afford to, they are idiots to do so. You are right, that can still be seen as "stating an opinion" but when you venture into the realm of telling people your opinion of what people should personally value and how they should spend their own money, it becomes rather grating in my humble opinion.

Posted: **Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:42 pm**

I didn't say they're idiots...If people are taking it like that, it is because they're feeling vulnerable...That's probably a good thing to challenge your own assertion...

But you also took some of those things out of context...Mahmoud is stating his opinion about something to the contrary and I'm responding. And yes, stuff is going to come across like I'm stating facts...such is the way all discussions go because we can't end every sentence with "this is just my opinion".

I also didn't tell people what they should value...in fact I was very specific in stating people's situations will be different so their value of something will be different...

But I also was very clear on providing numbers to back up what I'm saying...because frankly, people don't really think about the true cost to them or what other options are available...

If people are offended by people stating their opinion strongly why would you ever participate in a forum? If you want a forum to thrive (which I'm assuming is the case) you want to have healthy discussions...If all we're here to do is post about TNs and when the next release of X is coming out, the forum will just die.

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:05 am**

Polymer, Polymer, Polymer, take it easy, you're running around in circles.

First, ease off on assuming that those who disagree with you are "vulnerable". They're not. Well, at least I'm not, I just think you're wrong. Period.
Second, we don't think you're stating facts, not at all. It's just that you keep insisting that you are right in almost every post.
Third, my assertion above (second) is confirmed when you say things like "frankly, people don't really think about the true cost to them or what options are availably". Not only are you saying that you are right because you see things that others don't, you are also being quite arrogant in saying something like this on a forum with plenty of experienced and knowledgable people. In fact there have been numerous threads on wine storage and their costs as well as a forum member who runs a wine auction. Even I've bought stuff from there and I don't even live in Australia!
Fourth, I don't think people are offended, they might just be getting tired of your insistance on repeating everything over and over and assuming that those of us who like cellaring don't really know what we're doing and are oblivious of our options and what they cost.

Chill out man ................. Mahmoud.

PS: My saying "Chill out man" is no reflection of the recent legalization of cannabis across Canada.

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:35 am**

That's not what I'm saying Mahmoud...I'm not saying people that disagree with me are feeling vulnerable...If people think they're being told they're idiots..which isn't the case, but if they feel like that's the case, it is probably because some of what is being said is making sense yet it goes against what they're doing..

Second - I'm arguing a point..just as everyone else is...

Third - When someone says people..in a general sense. Either it applies to you or it doesn't. If it doesn't apply to you then you shouldn't be offended by it. When someone says something that is a bit different it isn't going to be easy to see and if you do, then your arguments would address that. Some people's response did, some didn't...but again, if what is said does apply to you then it doesn't. I've specifically said we all have a lot to learn about wine but at the same time, I know what it is I'm looking for in wine...I like to hear other people's opinion but I'm not concern if it differs from my own.

Fourth - I haven't said people that like cellaring don't know what they're doing...If you're confident in what you're doing then you wouldn't feel the least bit bothered by this discussion....

And as I said before...a good number of people (not all of you but as a general term and btw, in my opinion) generally haven't worked out the true cost of cellaring. They know what they pay each month (if they are) but haven't really worked through what the alternatives are (As far what what they money could go towards, what it means if you cellar less, etc) And most people don't care...So bringing up what other options are out there it is a way to prompt thinking and a discussion. Do you really feel people have thought out the alternatives? Most people are cellaring and the real answer is - I don't care, I want to do it this way, and that's fine.

I don't understand why you think I'm not completely chill about this....Don't think I'm spending a lot of time writing this because I'm really not.

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:38 am**

How about them Burgundies?

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:52 am**

Exhibit One:

Polymer wrote: ...If people are taking it like that, it is because they're feeling vulnerable...

Exhibit Two:

Polymer wrote: ...I'm not saying people that disagree with me are feeling vulnerable ...

On your eleventh post:

Polymer wrote: ... Don't think I'm spending a lot of time writing this because I'm really not.

You've reiterated your position over and over again, and continue to say people who cellar don't really know what they're doing. In essence your posts can be characterized as:

DogChasingTail.png

Cheers ............ Mahmoud.

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:21 am**

Stomper wrote:How about them Burgundies?

Love them, didn't cellar enough of them.

In the early days Bordeaux was simpler and easier to understand - basically one grand vin per chateau versus numerous producers and wines from each premieur or grand crus and many were negociant wines. I remember standing before a shelf of wines in a store that was being liquidated. Another customer recommended to me a Burgundy that was about $45 but the 1986 Palmer was $32 and impossible to resist. I bought the Palmer and not the Burgundy. I don't regret buying the Palmer but wish I had also bought the Burgundy.

Oh yes, I got home quite content and, on reflection, called the store and put the remaining two bottles on hold. Coincidentally I also picked up some 1986 Lindeman's Pyrus elegantly wrapped in translucent paper. I think it was in the low $20s.

And yes, if I hadn't cellared the Palmer I probably wouldn't be able to justify buying it today.

Cheers ............... Mahmoud.

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:03 am**

Mahmoud Ali wrote: You've reiterated your position over and over again, and continue to say people who cellar don't really know what they're doing.

See, I'm ok with replying to this each and everytime...so again, no I'm not saying people who cellar don't really know what they're doing. *I* cellar wine as well....Let me say it again, *I* cellar wine as well. Let me say it a third time...*I* CELLAR WINE AS WELL.

What I think is funny is people like you, are coming out thinking my original comment was to say you're all idiots to cellar...if you took it like that..hey, like I said...*vulnerable* *lacking self-confidence*....But my post was to show a different side of this rather than just the common idea of you have to cellar a bunch of wine. You want to disagree with what I said, which is great even though you're misunderstanding and continue to misunderstand and misquote what I'm saying but that's fine. At least it is a discussion...I do think generally these things go better when your understanding of my position isn't so misrepresented as taking my argument to an extreme which I'm not backing is a fairly weak way to have a discussion but hey, its the Internet...

But let's take what you quoted me...

IF people are feeling like that then they're feeling vulnerable.
I'm not saying people who disagree with me are feeling vulnerable.

People who disagree with me aren't necessarily feeling vulnerable..they can just disagree...People who are taking what I say as if I'm calling them an idiot, they're feeling vulnerable. The two groups aren't the same group although someone can be in both groups. Let me break that down if I'm confusing you because I know this might be too complicated.

Group 1
People that disagree with my statement

Group 2
People that took what I said as saying they're idiots or don't know what they're doing.

People in Group 2 probably belong in Group 1 as well but it is possible they don't.
Not everyone in Group 1 belongs in Group 2. <<<<This is the key bit here. You're treating them as if they're one and the same...but they're not. Obviously a number of people are in both groups..but I am sure there were plenty of people that disagreed with some, most or all of what I said but they're not feeling vulnerable because they just disagree...

As far as time...I type relatively fast... if you think this is taking me a lot of time it isn't although I admit it is taking more than probably normal....I'm quite enjoying the conversation though...

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:02 pm**

phillisc wrote:Or you could look at it another way and a cellar dug at home with the hole lined with bessa bricks... according to my next door neighbour builder is 40g plus...so you have 12 years of storage covered.
I have 3600 or so at 2g a year in professional storage and yes not a bad rate but will be digging the hole soon.
Cheers
Craig

2g a year is good for that amount. Who are you with in ADL?

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:18 pm**

Polymer wrote:Buying to cellar, as I've stated (but I can understand it is a bit confusing)...is when you're buying multiple bottles of many different wines because you want to cellar them....I'm not distinguishing between drink now and drink later type wines because most wines can still be drunk very young..and many wines that aren't necessarily made to be super structured can still cellar. Thanks for confirming you didn't understand what I'm saying...Not blaming you but it was obvious you didn't...

Selective cellaring is picking out a wine here or there because you want to cellar that specific wine as it is made to go long term, it might be a special bottle, etc, etc..It generally consists of buying 1 but doesn't have to be...I could reword this to say don't cellar too much wine but I wanted to be more specific.

So to give you an example of what this might look like as far as buying each year. Doesn't have to be these exact wines..

Selective Cellaring:
1 x Penfolds Grange
1 x Vogue Musigny
1 x Bartolo Mascarello Barolo
1 x Leoville Las Cases
1 x Yquem
1 x Sassicaia
1 x Tyrrells Vat 1
1 x Rockford BP
1 x Wynns JR
1 x JJ Prum WS Spatlese

vs.
6 x Rockford BP
6 x Marius Symposium
6 x JJ Prum WS Spatlese
6 x Tyrrells Vat 47
6 x Grosset Polish Hill
6 x Amirault Petit Cave
6 x Giant Steps Pinot
6 x Wynns Black
6 x Chave St. Joseph
6 x Noble One

In both cases you have wines that will age...all age reasonably well based off of history. You might even have more than 1 in the case of selective cellaring because maybe you have 1 to drink now, 1 to cellar. Either way, you also have multiple vintages...so in the selective one, you might have multiple vintages but not every vintage (replace one wine with another). The one below you very likely have multiple vintages as well...

So in case 1, flash forward 10 years you have a small mix of wines that have been cellared. You've also bought via auction and other reliable secondary market opportunities. You've been drinking mature wines throughout that process because you're not relying on cellaring your own wine....You have a cellar but you don't have a huge cellar because you've spent more money buying different wines and drinking them without the intention of cellaring them...(although some have no doubt been cellared). Your storage costs run you roughly 2k a year less than if you had bought many bottles as in case 2. You can use that 2k for other wine. You might have a few wines you don't care about anymore but not too many and you've mainly concentrated on long term classics anyways...

Case 2, flash forward 10 years...you have a mix of wines and you have a lot of wine cellared in this way. You have multiple bottles of the same wine..and in multiple vintages. You've bought more wines for cellaring so assuming the same budget as above, you've spent less during that time on other wines. Less money on secondary sources, less money on wines you've consumed relatively quick (both "early and "late" drinkers). You have 2k more in storage costs which also cuts into what you want to spend on wine. The advantage is you have multiple bottles of the same wines in multiple vintages to drink and try. You have a larger number of 10+ year old wine to drink on a very regular basis but that's based on wines you actually bought yourself 10 years ago...Chances are there are a good number of wines here that you don't want to drink any longer but hopefully that isn't the case.

It is obvious these are only examples...but the point is everyone assumes it is a good idea to pack away a ton of wines...but they're not considering other factors...They're not considering how much that actually costs them or eats into their budget for wine....

And this fits in well with a theme you often hear from people such as:
Buying fewer bottles but more per bottle (which can translate into much more per bottle if you have lower storage costs).
Avoiding too many multiples
Avoiding too many of a single style
Avoiding running out of storage space or requiring to spend more on storage space aka: selling your wine because you have too much
Getting over the fear of missing out, etc.
There is always another vintage of the century
There is always another great producer

You might ask, why are the wine in case 1 more expensive than case 2 (in general) - You have more money to spend per bottle in case 1 because you aren't buying a bunch of extras for cellaring...

And why would the wines you cellar be unavailable or not affordable? Are you saying with 2k you can't replace those bottles? YOu can't find them anywhere else? You can't find an alternative that is probably more interesting with 2k more per year?

And BTW, I already knew what your answer would be...But maybe think about why I'm asking it.

What I think is funny is your approach is probably closer to what I'm advocating than the alternative..

Hi Polymer,

I haven't followed the whole discussion closely but at risk of being a contrarian, I agree on a number of your points. Although I would have to add that it's a local Adelaide auctioneer for me personally that would make your case viable in my circumstances. He checks proveance and though still sometimes burnt, more often I'm very pleased.

Having a 4000 bottle cellar which started with being bulked up with some modest wines, I'd probably be better off having not paid the storage costs and bought icons only and less of the cheaper stuff.

That said, when I do pull out a perfectly cellared wine since release, the results are so satisfying I always pause and celebrate the result.

Everyones different and my circumstances now see 90% of my budget filling my cellar with Northern Italians which I prefer to drink over all else and fear their appreciation. Closer to return to Oz I'll start diversifying additions- high end Champagne, Bordeaux Rhone and others. The rewards of Australian wine cellaring can mostly be met at auction for me in the future I feel.

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:01 pm**

Jamie,

I'm with you completely....Everyone is going to need to determine the right cellaring strategy for themselves and definitely if your main concern is how much the wines might increase then you're probably far better off getting more now. And as you pointed out, with more modest wines it becomes a real question mark on whether they're worth cellaring (as in packing away a number of them offsite), especially when it comes to AU wines in AU where there is a fantastic secondary market.

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:26 am**

Hi Jaime, How do you configure your 4000 bottles? I seem to remember a few photos you published a few years back showing Wendourees and others stacked in commercial shelving with more access than I could possibly have.I have about 2000 and most are stacked in two large lockers at Kennards, and I literally can't get to the back half of each one due to carton apon carton in front of them. I tried to put younger at the back, but every so often I wish I could get to them without a major lifting and stacking session.

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:43 am**

Of course it is a case of "Everyone is going to need to determine the right cellaring strategy for themselves". Too much overheating in prior posts, when that is the simple truth.

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:41 pm**

Hacker wrote:I have about 2000 and most are stacked in two large lockers at Kennards, and I literally can't get to the back half of each one due to carton apon carton in front of them. I tried to put younger at the back, but every so often I wish I could get to them without a major lifting and stacking session.

I've got the same problem. My wine mostly in cardboard boxes in 6 packs, on shelves inside my walk-in Kennards locker (~1500 bottles). I've become very good at Wine Tetris. I've also become good friends with Murphy, who more often than not ensures the box I want access to is under a stack of boxes behind another stack of boxes.

I do have a good solution to this which I've utilised for one of my locker shelves. I use a modular Stakrax system ([url]http://www.stakrax.com.au/[/url]) configured in a double layer, which means I only need to move at most 1 bottle to access any bottle in that shelf. It's extremely convenient, but exxy compared to boxes and has a little less bottle density. It's tempting to fit out my entire cellar with it, but it'd cost me more than a year of storage fees to do it.

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:34 pm**

Ian S wrote:Of course it is a case of "Everyone is going to need to determine the right cellaring strategy for themselves". Too much overheating in prior posts, when that is the simple truth.

What I've taken from the discussion is to keep reevaluating what I'm buying and why, and do I need to change tack. I think there's an assumption that everyone has a deeply thought out strategy for both buying and cellaring, however I doubt that is the case. Reflecting on my current buying (or not buying) - I follow what Polymer outlined re my Bordeaux purchases, loads of it about on the secondary market (and generally same or cheaper price than first release). I'm ok taking the provenance risk. With Piedmont and Burgundy, I'm more concerned with the risk of availability and continuing price appreciation so I'm expecting that buying and cellaring up front will be cheaper in the long run including any storage cost. I've probably bought too much Australian wine to cellar and it wouldn't fetch much at auction.

I expect my buying habits will change over the next 5-10 years, less current release and more back vintages to drink as opposed to cellar.

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:18 pm**

My tastes have not really changed with wine in 30 years.
I like.....
Barossa shiraz
McLaren Vale shiraz
Hunter Valley semillon, and some Barossa sems
Sparkling shiraz.

I buy what I like to drink, get to taste some other interesting wines from our wine group, but thats what I like, so I am very happy.
Shiraz at 3 to 12 years old
Sems at 5 to 15 years old
Sparkling shiraz at 2 to 15 years old.

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:39 pm**

Ian S wrote:Of course it is a case of "Everyone is going to need to determine the right cellaring strategy for themselves". Too much overheating in prior posts, when that is the simple truth.

Tell me about it! From "don't buy to cellar", to "strategic cellaring", and then "the right cellaring strategy". Finally a result. It was a tough slog I tell you but my job is done.

Also, there was plenty of very good advice about the right cellaring strategy on the first two pages of this thread.

Cheers ............ Mahmoud.

Posted: **Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:33 am**

Mahmoud Ali wrote: Tell me about it! From "don't buy to cellar", to "strategic cellaring", and then "the right cellaring strategy". Finally a result. It was a tough slog I tell you but my job is done.

WTF...I haven't changed anything I've said...This was always about the RIGHT cellaring strategy...

Read what Mivvy said..and what he said is EXACTLY what I'm trying to say...and exactly the points I'm trying to raise...which is I'm challenging some of the long held assertions we are told when we start buying wine with some numbers and information because like he mentioned, most people don't really have a well thought out cellaring strategy..they just do it... If it makes sense for someone that's reading it, maybe they'll re-think or decide to re-evaluate their strategy (which btw doesn't need to be a revolutionary changed but a slow evolution). For people where it doesn't, they don't...

The people who are taking it as "This is the only way to go and anyone not doing this is wrong", like yourself, for example, are the ones that probably need to read it a bit more carefully because you've somehow felt offended or annoyed at a contrary idea yet your own responses show you haven't understood what I was saying - you said you have but it is blatantly obvious you don't.

I can only fill what I'm saying with so many caveats..where it has been littered with "If you are buying X, if you have passive storage, if your average bottle price is X etc, etc in my opinion" and even flat out talking about cellaring certain wines...

You've consistently misrepresented my position which I'm not sure is intentional or lack of something else. But either way, I haven't changed my position even one iota.

I would strongly suggest YOU read both Mivvy's and Jamie's post..because both are mentioning exactly what I've been trying to say and using real life examples (Bordeaux and AU wine (generically)). They're also bringing up examples where they're going to continue to buy and cellar (Burgundy and Piedmont) because they're concerned about prices increasing, and rightfully so.

Posted: **Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:19 am**

Hacker wrote:Hi Jaime, How do you configure your 4000 bottles? I seem to remember a few photos you published a few years back showing Wendourees and others stacked in commercial shelving with more access than I could possibly have.I have about 2000 and most are stacked in two large lockers at Kennards, and I literally can't get to the back half of each one due to carton apon carton in front of them. I tried to put younger at the back, but every so often I wish I could get to them without a major lifting and stacking session.

It's only just becoming a problem Hacker. I do have access the length of the cellar though I determined this is a bit of a waste of space and may just load up the back with wines with 20 year + ahead. Perhaps it will become a problem of my estate.

I stored wines by regions or countries but this luxury not so plausible now and I did rearrange things. I'm planning a Craiglee vertical in HKG from the late 80's and I can't remember where Sunbury ended up.

Collecting north Italians has made me even more lazy. I just bury them wherever they fit in the Italian section as their drinking windows so lifetime-long at 15 degrees !

One mistake I made in youth was putting huge 12 boxes at the top of the cellar.

Posted: **Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:37 am**

I remain convinced that the only viable strategy where storage can get so full it becomes difficult to access, is to eschew any thoughts of grouping by regions, grape varieties etc. and simply accept that an audit every year or two is as much about ensuring the wines that need age get buried, and those nearing / at maturity end up at the front / top.

Best also to have CT on phone or tablet to make it easier to find what you're looking for.

Posted: **Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:48 am**

Hi Polymer
I'm guessing this thread wouldn't have degenerated as it did, had you not started by saying "Don't buy to cellar". Whether intentionally or unintentionally, that was a provocative entrance to the thread, and it's influenced how this thread went.

I'd very much applaud asking people to question why they cellar, why they cellar so much, and whether they have a buying addiction. It's a fair challenge and an important balance to the tendency for many to aim from day 1 to build 'the perfect cellar'.

Regards
Ian

Posted: **Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:05 am**

Ian S wrote:Hi Polymer
I'm guessing this thread wouldn't have degenerated as it did, had you not started by saying "Don't buy to cellar". Whether intentionally or unintentionally, that was a provocative entrance to the thread, and it's influenced how this thread went.

Maybe I'm missing something. Haven't followed the thread too closely but I went hunting for the provocative entrance and I found-

Polymer wrote:I'll probably give the least popular opinion..

And upon reflection of my journey, relevant points were made and I find myself making similar recommendations to younger generations beginning their journey. So I've found Polymer's comments relevant and I'm unsure of the sensitivity- maybe he called someone a wanker, I don't know.

Posted: **Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:38 am**

Hi Jamie
If you found those words, you'll find "Don't buy to cellar" immediately after them.

"Don't buy to cellar" was provocative, whether intentional or not. It's unfortunate that it set the tone for what followed, as there is much informative reasoning in his challenge to people in thinking why they cellar wine.

Regards
Ian

Posted: **Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:27 am**

Ian S wrote:I remain convinced that the only viable strategy where storage can get so full it becomes difficult to access, is to eschew any thoughts of grouping by regions, grape varieties etc. and simply accept that an audit every year or two is as much about ensuring the wines that need age get buried, and those nearing / at maturity end up at the front / top.

Best also to have CT on phone or tablet to make it easier to find what you're looking for.

+1

When I started cellaring wines, I grouped my wines by various categories. But then as you start taking out wines from your cellar you end up with empty spaces. If you have "unlimited" storage, then this isn't an issue. I don't, so I stopped grouping my bottles to maximise the number of bottles I can store. I know where every single bottle is thanks to CellarTracker and I can group and regroup all my wines virtually to my heart's content.

Posted: **Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:24 am**

This thread has really drifted, but to revert to one specific point on the OP:

The Wine Ark private lockers (at least in NSW) are a LOT more expensive than their managed cellarage options. You lose the luxury of turning up any time day or night to drop off / collect wines, but the price difference can easily make a contribution to a decent bottle or two every few months.

A few other pointers trying not to repeat too much what others have said - I'm in a very similar situation to you, though I've been collecting wine (to drink) a little longer. Families are expensive, and patience with wine offers isn't so much something you'll learn as will be forced upon you! There is always another vintage (of a lifetime) - my advice would be to keep an eye out for one or two wines you REALLY love, learn when and who releases them, and set some money aside to make sure you can pick some up when they become available. Other than that, learn to pass!

Oh, and I would disagree with the suggestion that Aussie Shiraz doesn't age - 10-12 year-old Shiraz is absolutely beautiful, provided it was well-made to begin with. I've had many Penfolds, Rockfords, Glaetzers, and others at that sort of point, and they are lovely. Which just goes to show - make sure you know what you like before you lay it down for a decade. Would be awful shame to wait 15 years for your classified Bordeaux to come around, only to discover you dislike decade-old cabernet! Nobody can tell you what to buy, because nobody else knows your palate but you (though I'm sure people can point you in an interesting direction, if we know more about your preferences).

I am far from convinced by provenance in this country, when it comes to the auction market for older wines. The climate here is pretty unfriendly to wine. Even subterranean rooms don't necessarily get down to the 'ideal' ambient temperature for cellaring. So unless the provenance was really impeccable, I wouldn't buy anything more than a few vintages old from auction here - who knows where it's been?!?

And don't bother with a Coravin - this wine is for drinking, not science experiments.

Posted: **Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:27 pm**

asajoseph wrote:
Oh, and I would disagree with the suggestion that Aussie Shiraz doesn't age - 10-12 year-old Shiraz is absolutely beautiful, provided it was well-made to begin with. I've had many Penfolds, Rockfords, Glaetzers, and others at that sort of point, and they are lovely. Which just goes to show - make sure you know what you like before you lay it down for a decade. Would be awful shame to wait 15 years for your classified Bordeaux to come around, only to discover you dislike decade-old cabernet! Nobody can tell you what to buy, because nobody else knows your palate but you (though I'm sure people can point you in an interesting direction, if we know more about your preferences).

Asajoseph

This is a can of worms topic but what the heck here we go - two observations:

First up as we all know, there are a wide range of locations in Australia making wine which gives a board spectrum of styles of shiraz from the cool climates of Victoria to the warm shiraz of SA, Barossa etc. What I have noticed over the decades of collecting is that the warmer climate shiraz which I have cellared are generally of less interest to me than the shiraz I have collected from the cooler climates with the passage of time.

Secondly almost everyone I have ever known who started out collecting wine invariably picked up a ton of SA shiraz early on only to find their tastes developed or matured and they ended up selling off dozens of cases of SA shiraz.

So for beginners I don't believe the statement Aussie shiraz doesn't age is correct but rather try to understand just how different the shiraz style (and varieties for that matter) differ between regions. A shiraz from Beechworth is materially different from one made in McLaren Vale which is different to the ACT and Hunter shiraz (and for everyone rolling their eyes remember the initial context of this discussions).

Probably the best advice I could give you is to track down Why The French Hate Us By Campbell Mattinson. Its a brilliant book that looks at the range of wines made in Australia. it will open a world of new options for you as you explore the wines he discusses.

Posted: **Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:29 pm**

JamieBahrain wrote:
Ian S wrote:Hi Polymer
I'm guessing this thread wouldn't have degenerated as it did, had you not started by saying "Don't buy to cellar". Whether intentionally or unintentionally, that was a provocative entrance to the thread, and it's influenced how this thread went.
Maybe I'm missing something. Haven't followed the thread too closely but I went hunting for the provocative entrance and I found-

Polymer wrote:I'll probably give the least popular opinion..
And upon reflection of my journey, relevant points were made and I find myself making similar recommendations to younger generations beginning their journey. So I've found Polymer's comments relevant and I'm unsure of the sensitivity- maybe he called someone a wanker, I don't know.

Jamie

I have been following this discussion and for the life of me really can not follow the train of logic re cellaring. It seems that are a number of underlying value judgements and assumptions around the merits of cellaring or to cellar or not to cellar so I have watched it all go by. Not a bad approach.

Posted: **Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:55 pm**

rooman wrote: Asajoseph

This is a can of worms topic but what the heck here we go - two observations:

First up as we all know, there are a wide range of locations in Australia making wine which gives a board spectrum of styles of shiraz from the cool climates of Victoria to the warm shiraz of SA, Barossa etc. What I have noticed over the decades of collecting is that the warmer climate shiraz which I have cellared are generally of less interest to me than the shiraz I have collected from the cooler climates with the passage of time.

Secondly almost everyone I have ever known who started out collecting wine invariably picked up a ton of SA shiraz early on only to find their tastes developed or matured and they ended up selling off dozens of cases of SA shiraz.

So for beginners I don't believe the statement Aussie shiraz doesn't age is correct but rather try to understand just how different the shiraz style (and varieties for that matter) differ between regions. A shiraz from Beechworth is materially different from one made in McLaren Vale which is different to the ACT and Hunter shiraz (and for everyone rolling their eyes remember the initial context of this discussions).

Probably the best advice I could give you is to track down Why The French Hate Us By Campbell Mattinson. Its a brilliant book that looks at the range of wines made in Australia. it will open a world of new options for you as you explore the wines he discusses.

Hi Rooman,

Thanks for your considered response. This is also a good point - regional variation exists within Australia as much as it exists between Australia and the Old World.

I was scanning the thread & jotting a few notes as I went, and noticed one particular comment on the first page:

Syrah Shiraz I am yet to be convinced actually improves in the cellar but I haven't had too much experience with Rhone. Buy some yes but enjoy them young. There are a few exceptions Grange being one, but really overall .... sorry but I'm still waiting for an eureka moment there

Now of course, it's not for me to tell anyone what their palate should appreciate. I was more expressing the personal opinion that Aussie Shiraz (including the SA blockbusters) do gain depth & complexity as they age, including under screwcap. To my personal palate, 10-15 years is about the sweet spot, though the wines I'm talking about that have reached this age (and I've had quite a few) have all been aged by merchants, wineries, or other collectors - they're not wines I purchased myself.

What you're describing, I think, is related to the general trend for people who are into wine to first get hooked on the bigger, bolder styles (Aussie Shiraz & Cab, California Cab, Right Bank Bordeaux, CdP), and then as their palate develops start gravitating toward lighter, more nuanced styles. Doesn't happen to everyone, but I've seen enough people describe the phenomenon to think it's a real thing ("all roads lead to Burgundy", as someone said above). In my case, I've gravitated toward Nebbiolos more than Pinots: Barolo, Barbaresco, humble Langhes and wines from the rest of Italy & further afield (some lovely wines from Aus too!), but I haven't yet lost my taste for the blockbusters. Maybe I will in another 5-10 years of drinking, but for now I like to think I can appreciate wine in most styles.

So I can certainly envisage that for many people, who follow the Shiraz > Burgundy route with their palates, but have cellars full of big, bold wines that they bought when they were first starting out a decade or more previously, this might be a bit of a problem. I can see how it can happen too, with the (relatively) low prices & enormous critic scores that get thrown around. All I can say is that, right now, tasted side by side, I personally find the older shiraz appreciably more interesting than the younger styles.

Posted: **Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:28 pm**

For me I worked out very early that I liked aged wine so started to cellar wine for the long term. Sourcing older wine from auctions and retailers for drinking and seeing if I like what I’m cellaring.

I think the biggest mistake I made was buying 6 and 12 of each vintage, 10 or 12 years later I ended up with 10 dozen or so of the same wine. I did thin it out a bit a few years ago.
If I could change anything I would have bought 3 and 6 of the cheaper wines so to have a wider range of producers. Also I wish I started buying overseas wine a lot earlier.

I’m glad I cellared wine because now I have a decent amount aged wine for when ever I feel like one. Yes I can buy most of these wines on the secondary market but I know these have been cellared properly. I’m still buying to put away for the next 10 or 20 years but mainly back filling.

Cheers Con.

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